2012 honda 450 suspension?

DustinB333
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DustinB333
Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 12:46pm
just got a 2012 honda 450 and im having trouble getting the bike to stop knifing in the front. Does anyone on here have any advise on set up? im 170lb no gear vet pro
thanks guys,,
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Chris O'Neal
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Chris O'Neal 12/7/2011 9:21pm
12/7/2011 9:21pm
Have you set the sag? Sounds like your forks are too soft. Make sure your spring rates are right. Check your clickers too.
NeWskoolmxer
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NeWskoolmxer 12/7/2011 9:26pm
12/7/2011 9:26pm Edited Date/Time 12/7/2011 9:26pm
Step 1. Send to FC- Step 2. Be amazed after first ride on FC. Seriously if you are vet pro you probably are gonna need revalve anywho.
nicski15
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nicski15 12/7/2011 9:53pm
12/7/2011 9:53pm
I have a 2012 and didnt have that issue really, Im a bit heavier then you and we left the springs in it, cause they went stiffer this year, and after we revalved it ,it felt good but was a little harsh acting, we went a little to aggressive on the valving.so we changed some things in the midvalve, and now is working great.. also runnning sag at 105 mm, at 170 lbs you might have to go down on your spring rate. Just my thoughts, im sure theres alot more knowledgable people in here about this topic..
BM255
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BM255 12/8/2011 12:59am
12/8/2011 12:59am
DustinB333 wrote:
just got a 2012 honda 450 and im having trouble getting the bike to stop knifing in the front. Does anyone on here have any advise...
just got a 2012 honda 450 and im having trouble getting the bike to stop knifing in the front. Does anyone on here have any advise on set up? im 170lb no gear vet pro
thanks guys,,
Having exactly the same problem as you, had a big get off a couple weeks back because of it.
I'm a little bit heavier than you at about 190lb so probably need heavier springs to start with.
Also, I've read that an aftermarket linkage can help with the geometry and the knifing problem, can anyone verify?

The Shop

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mxmat813
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mxmat813 12/8/2011 4:10am
12/8/2011 4:10am Edited Date/Time 12/8/2011 4:13am
Merge Racing Knuckle. It fixes the knifing problem 100% and is better than just doing the linkage arms because it doesn't have the same negative effect on the stroke of the shock like the arms do. I put it on my 11 before I even rode it and then rode one without it and did not feel safe or comfortable on it at all. I've always had FC do my suspension, but I'm sending this stuff to Merge over the winter for a revalve. They do good work.


http://www.mergeracing.com/products/LinkageKnuckle.php
rod.vanderjagt 12/8/2011 4:59am
12/8/2011 4:59am
Typing by thumbs so please forgive.

I work with Dennis Bourque (2nd to Keith Johnson +40 @ LL) we rode our 12 for the first time last week and although F.C. will straighten us out, we did notice an annoying mid stroke "packing" with the rear shock, the front was predictable and progressive. I wonder if your knifing could be a symptom of the rear pack actually driving the front end into an aggressive rake..... Hello knifeage..... Follow?
PRM31
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PRM31 12/8/2011 5:19am
12/8/2011 5:19am
I find it amazing and disturbing, that a middle of the road rider in terms of weight, skill, etc., would have to do anything outside of the available adjustments to make an $8000 bike handle well.
nicski15
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nicski15 12/8/2011 5:25am
12/8/2011 5:25am
I think they put a 4.9 spring in the forks this year, unless your reallly fast and aggresive i dont know that it would be to stiff, I also put a different linkage on the year that I had on my 2010, maybe that why i didnt notice the problem at all. I have talked to Jeremy Wilkey a few times about the hondas, and as far as the 2010 went, he first recomended the linkage, then found out that the merge knuckle was the fix, im not sure if those same fixes help the 2012, but it may be worth a call to find out. again mine seems to be working really well right now.
motosickness 12/8/2011 6:22am
12/8/2011 6:22am
I had a 2009 and I have been on a 2012 for about 3 months now. The 2012 geometry is very good and balanced. Honda already fixed the knuckle and the linkage in the rear so don't waste your money on that. The sag is very tricky I find that 106mm is the best for balance, any more and it feels choppered out and turning is sacrificed, any less and it wants to knife. The spring rates seem spot on for me at 175. The other thing that i would say is that after it breaks in the forks become noticably softer and you have to start going in on the comp. Also you can turn the high speed (big nut) comp. all the way out or soft on the shock and that will keep the rear more settled in turns. I have about 15hrs on mine and so far i'm very happy and would not think that a revalve or spring change would make it any better at this point. Good luck!
motosickness 12/8/2011 6:28am
12/8/2011 6:28am
rod.vanderjagt wrote:
Typing by thumbs so please forgive. I work with Dennis Bourque (2nd to Keith Johnson +40 @ LL) we rode our 12 for the first time...
Typing by thumbs so please forgive.

I work with Dennis Bourque (2nd to Keith Johnson +40 @ LL) we rode our 12 for the first time last week and although F.C. will straighten us out, we did notice an annoying mid stroke "packing" with the rear shock, the front was predictable and progressive. I wonder if your knifing could be a symptom of the rear pack actually driving the front end into an aggressive rake..... Hello knifeage..... Follow?
What did you guys end up doing to settle the rear? Did you speed up the rebound a bit or play with the sag? I wasn't too happy with FC's setup on the 2009 so i'm reluctant to send them the 2012 especialy since it feels so much better then the 2009...
gpracer36
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gpracer36 12/8/2011 7:51am
12/8/2011 7:51am
i have a 2012, at 175 lbs i had no problems knifing. My only problem was it had a mid stroke harshness in the forks. Sent my stuff to FC. It is coming back today, will ride it tomorrow. They went softer springs, front .48's and rear 5.4. No need for linkage arms or knuckles. The 2012 has all that already.

They did my 09 and it was amazing. I will update tomorrow.
cjmx
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cjmx 12/8/2011 10:19am
12/8/2011 10:19am
NeWskoolmxer wrote:
Step 1. Send to FC- Step 2. Be amazed after first ride on FC. Seriously if you are vet pro you probably are gonna need revalve...
Step 1. Send to FC- Step 2. Be amazed after first ride on FC. Seriously if you are vet pro you probably are gonna need revalve anywho.
what he said
Adam43
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Adam43 12/8/2011 10:28am
12/8/2011 10:28am
Crank your damper all the way in.

Run 120mm of sag.

Get stiffer fork springs, run less oil.

Done.
DustinB333
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DustinB333 12/8/2011 10:32am
12/8/2011 10:32am
Thanks guys alot of good info..I been running 104 to 105 sag with lscomp at 12, hs 1.5 and rebound about 13. On the fork im 14 comp and 14 rebound but it seems when i go in on comp the front gets harsh over small stuff and becomes skatie. but it sounds like i need more time on it to test and some more money to have FC revalve it. I dont think i need springs at 170lb and i still race both 450 pro and vet in Norcal.

Thanks agian
mxtech1
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mxtech1 12/8/2011 10:39am
12/8/2011 10:39am
I would start by adding some more sag to get more weight on the rear. This will somewhat free-up your front end and reduce some of the initial sag on the fork.

Next step, add no more than 4 clicks of compression.

If those two adjustments don't work, you need to go to a stiffer spring rate.
DustinB333
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DustinB333 12/8/2011 10:45am
12/8/2011 10:45am
Mxtech i dont think i can get much more sag without losing preload. I will check tonight..
rod.vanderjagt 12/8/2011 12:24pm
12/8/2011 12:24pm
As mentioned we just got our 12, at the end of the day, 3 20 minute shakedown sessions we settled at 100mm sag HS two turns out, c. 9 clicks out, r. 10 clicks out.

Front ended at c 6 clicks out r 8 clicks out.

The mid pack issue was persistent and pervasive. We will drill the valve body to add the bleed hole that has been utilized since 09 and see if this helps.

Remember we are in Florida sand so we tend to run stiffer than ya'all may be accustomed to.
R
mxtech1
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mxtech1 12/8/2011 1:29pm
12/8/2011 1:29pm
DustinB333 wrote:
Mxtech i dont think i can get much more sag without losing preload. I will check tonight..
Don't forget to check your static sag after you set the sag again. My suspicions were you were already on the high side for sag.

By my calculations given your weight you should be running 0.488 for springs (0.47 stock) and the stock shock spring is close enough at 5.5

I would recomend two sets of fork springs 1 set at a 0.48 and 1 set at a 0.50. Use 1 spring from each in the different fork legs and this will split the difference and bring the spring rate in at 0.49. This is a more expensive route but will be the way to go if you are truly trying to get dialed in w/o shelling out money for revalves.

My experience so far is that the 2012 valving has been too soft for faster riders. even with proper tuning, the valve is just too thin and i've usually had to alter about 10 shims in the stack to make the fork more progressive on the initial stroke.

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gpracer36
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gpracer36 12/8/2011 1:38pm
12/8/2011 1:38pm
DustinB333 wrote:
Mxtech i dont think i can get much more sag without losing preload. I will check tonight..
mxtech1 wrote:
Don't forget to check your static sag after you set the sag again. My suspicions were you were already on the high side for sag. By...
Don't forget to check your static sag after you set the sag again. My suspicions were you were already on the high side for sag.

By my calculations given your weight you should be running 0.488 for springs (0.47 stock) and the stock shock spring is close enough at 5.5

I would recomend two sets of fork springs 1 set at a 0.48 and 1 set at a 0.50. Use 1 spring from each in the different fork legs and this will split the difference and bring the spring rate in at 0.49. This is a more expensive route but will be the way to go if you are truly trying to get dialed in w/o shelling out money for revalves.

My experience so far is that the 2012 valving has been too soft for faster riders. even with proper tuning, the valve is just too thin and i've usually had to alter about 10 shims in the stack to make the fork more progressive on the initial stroke.
stock already is .49
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 12/8/2011 1:42pm
12/8/2011 1:42pm
1. Set the ride height in the rear...best off setting it slightly towards the soft-end of the spectrum on a '12.

2. Get a flat-blade and find out where the compression is set up front..rebound, too.
(Same goes for the shock: WHere are the settings versus Honda or Mag suggested set-ups? As a rule I'd look for a magazine test that has their "set-up" notes avail. and set the bike up based on that...for starters...)

3. Based on what you posted, I'd guess a lil' extra compression (Forks) might slow down the "dive"...

4. You will be SOOOOOOO better off if you try and figure out what the stock stuff does BEFORE you spend ANY money on a revalve...you'll go into your revlaved suspension with some knowledge of what you wnat and what was truly IMPROVED by the suspension company...If..."if" you learn how to dial things in 1st.

5. Take your time and learn how different "Biases" (Front to Rear) REALLY make the Honda EXTREMELY versatile.
yzkrazy219
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yzkrazy219 12/8/2011 3:46pm
12/8/2011 3:46pm
On my 2011 Honda I run my sag at 112mm. I also like to run the forks alittle on the stiff side. Anything less than that I felt that the front wanted to skate and knife. I ride a lot of fast very rutted tracks and that sag setting really seems to help the bike settle into corners. I know that sounds like a lot of sag but dont dis it until you try it. Ive convinced several other guys to try it and they were amazed at how well it made the bike work.
mag23
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mag23 12/8/2011 4:10pm
12/8/2011 4:10pm
If you're in NorCal give Brian Roth a call... Roth Racing, I think...
ninety3
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ninety3 12/8/2011 7:14pm
12/8/2011 7:14pm
TeamGreen wrote:
1. Set the ride height in the rear...best off setting it slightly towards the soft-end of the spectrum on a '12. 2. Get a flat-blade and...
1. Set the ride height in the rear...best off setting it slightly towards the soft-end of the spectrum on a '12.

2. Get a flat-blade and find out where the compression is set up front..rebound, too.
(Same goes for the shock: WHere are the settings versus Honda or Mag suggested set-ups? As a rule I'd look for a magazine test that has their "set-up" notes avail. and set the bike up based on that...for starters...)

3. Based on what you posted, I'd guess a lil' extra compression (Forks) might slow down the "dive"...

4. You will be SOOOOOOO better off if you try and figure out what the stock stuff does BEFORE you spend ANY money on a revalve...you'll go into your revlaved suspension with some knowledge of what you wnat and what was truly IMPROVED by the suspension company...If..."if" you learn how to dial things in 1st.

5. Take your time and learn how different "Biases" (Front to Rear) REALLY make the Honda EXTREMELY versatile.
+1

Best advice I've seen around here in a while.
DustinB333
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DustinB333 12/8/2011 8:58pm
12/8/2011 8:58pm
TeamGreen wrote:
1. Set the ride height in the rear...best off setting it slightly towards the soft-end of the spectrum on a '12. 2. Get a flat-blade and...
1. Set the ride height in the rear...best off setting it slightly towards the soft-end of the spectrum on a '12.

2. Get a flat-blade and find out where the compression is set up front..rebound, too.
(Same goes for the shock: WHere are the settings versus Honda or Mag suggested set-ups? As a rule I'd look for a magazine test that has their "set-up" notes avail. and set the bike up based on that...for starters...)

3. Based on what you posted, I'd guess a lil' extra compression (Forks) might slow down the "dive"...

4. You will be SOOOOOOO better off if you try and figure out what the stock stuff does BEFORE you spend ANY money on a revalve...you'll go into your revlaved suspension with some knowledge of what you wnat and what was truly IMPROVED by the suspension company...If..."if" you learn how to dial things in 1st.

5. Take your time and learn how different "Biases" (Front to Rear) REALLY make the Honda EXTREMELY versatile.
Thanks I'm doing more testing over the weekend I hope some of the things you guys have mentioned will help..
gpracer36
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gpracer36 12/10/2011 8:29am
12/10/2011 8:29am
rode my 2012 yesterday with the factory connection set up, perfection, they nailed it. i made a small fork adjustment and that was it.
DustinB333
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DustinB333 12/12/2011 12:32pm
12/12/2011 12:32pm
So my best setting after testing at 2 different tracks this weekend was fork comp 12 rebound 10 shock HS 1 out LS comp 12 and rebound 13 with 109sag Im barley getting that much sag because the spring is border line to stiff and I'm 170lb no gear. Now the front forks could be better on small chop they feel kinda hash but if i go out on comp they start knifing again. the back feels really good except when it unloads to the front it feels kinda stiff..

I have not tried moving the forks up in the clamps but I do wish the bike turned a little faster( but not knife like). lol

Thanks agin guys for your help DB333

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