Suspension Issue

Edited Date/Time 1/25/2012 7:10am
Hey guys need a little bit of expertise

Was riding my 2011 ktm 250 excf today through some high speed rough terrain, when I hit a wash out and heard a clunk like the suspension bottomed out. Now the front forks are really soft, as in you can almost push them the whole way down just by sitting on it and pushing the handlebars down. and they won't fully rebound. they sit around 1-2inch from fully uncompressed.

The only thing I've done with the suspension is harden it up via the clickers.

What could of caused this?
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EvanR127
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Huntington Beach, CA US
11/25/2011 12:44am
sounds like you should have bought a 2 stroke...........hehe
scooter5002
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6/6/2010
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Nanton Alberta CA
11/25/2011 1:02am
The long and the short of it is you have something SERIOUSLY wrong in there. If you are adept mechanically, start taking them apart. If not, head for a shop. Doubt that it's two broken springs. You've messed up the internal cartridges, most likely. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
tobz
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3/5/2007
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Adelaide AU
11/25/2011 2:42am
Yup, KTM are good like that. Take that sucker back and they'll sort it out.

The Shop

Berni
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4/11/2010
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ES
11/25/2011 6:28am
those EXCf have pretty soft forks, it is not that difficult to bottom them, and they dont fully extend after compressing them either, but you are the one who knows if now they are even softer...
nytsmaC
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Frig Off CA
11/25/2011 12:15pm
That's what they do, the clunk is just to tell you that they are now broken in.
11/25/2011 6:21pm Edited Date/Time 11/25/2011 6:22pm
pull apart, the retaining nut most likely backed itself off...... loctite it and put it back together
TKF Racing
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Rockaway, NJ US
11/25/2011 6:49pm
I''l send it to the shop next week, should be covered by warranty.
I don't want to hijack this, but I have a question on the KTM warranty for you Aussie (or any one else who may be able to answer this).

We bought my son a left over 2009 125 at the beginning of this year. He was not putting the air filter back on correctly and a bunch of dirt got down in with the piston. It wouldn't start the one day so I took it back to the dealer. He put a compression gauge on it and said it was real low.

I do not know enough to replace the piston m self so I had them do it to the tune of 500 bucks, Should this have been under the warranty or since it was us not putting the filter back on correctly, does that void it.

Thanks for any help and I would not have an issue going back to the dealer and asking them about the warranty coverage.
11/25/2011 7:10pm
I''l send it to the shop next week, should be covered by warranty.
TKF Racing wrote:
I don't want to hijack this, but I have a question on the KTM warranty for you Aussie (or any one else who may be able...
I don't want to hijack this, but I have a question on the KTM warranty for you Aussie (or any one else who may be able to answer this).

We bought my son a left over 2009 125 at the beginning of this year. He was not putting the air filter back on correctly and a bunch of dirt got down in with the piston. It wouldn't start the one day so I took it back to the dealer. He put a compression gauge on it and said it was real low.

I do not know enough to replace the piston m self so I had them do it to the tune of 500 bucks, Should this have been under the warranty or since it was us not putting the filter back on correctly, does that void it.

Thanks for any help and I would not have an issue going back to the dealer and asking them about the warranty coverage.
definatly not a warranty issue.....
mxtech1
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Galesburg, IL US
11/28/2011 7:23am Edited Date/Time 11/28/2011 7:24am
the problem with the forks is that the triple clamp pinch bolts are probably too tight, which binds the outer fork tube and doesn't allow the inner fork to slide properly. This usually happens if you have taken the forks off and then put them back on without using a torque wrench to properly tighten the bolts to the proper specs.

If you haven't ever had the forks off, you still need to check the pinch bolts and alignment. Loosen the triple clamp pinch bolts up and then re-torque them. Also, loosen the axle pinch bolts and the axle nut, take the bike off the stand and compress the front forks a few times to center the axle. Tighten the pinch bolt closest to the axle nut and torque to the axle. Loosen the 1 tightened pinch bolt and then torque the axle pinch bolts. The alignment of the front end can become tweaked over time from crashes or hard impacts.

If you do all this properly and the problem persists, you probably have a problem internally with the inner cartridge. In that case you will need to have the forks serviced.
Faceaz
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Glendale, AZ US
11/28/2011 7:48am
I''l send it to the shop next week, should be covered by warranty.
TKF Racing wrote:
I don't want to hijack this, but I have a question on the KTM warranty for you Aussie (or any one else who may be able...
I don't want to hijack this, but I have a question on the KTM warranty for you Aussie (or any one else who may be able to answer this).

We bought my son a left over 2009 125 at the beginning of this year. He was not putting the air filter back on correctly and a bunch of dirt got down in with the piston. It wouldn't start the one day so I took it back to the dealer. He put a compression gauge on it and said it was real low.

I do not know enough to replace the piston m self so I had them do it to the tune of 500 bucks, Should this have been under the warranty or since it was us not putting the filter back on correctly, does that void it.

Thanks for any help and I would not have an issue going back to the dealer and asking them about the warranty coverage.
Definitely your own fault, not a warranty issue. You should feel lucky you got out for 500, though I bet a bottom end rebuild is in your near future. The air / gas / oil also lubricates the main bearings.
mooch
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2/16/2008
Location
OH US
Fantasy
11/28/2011 7:54am
mxtech1 wrote:
the problem with the forks is that the triple clamp pinch bolts are probably too tight, which binds the outer fork tube and doesn't allow the...
the problem with the forks is that the triple clamp pinch bolts are probably too tight, which binds the outer fork tube and doesn't allow the inner fork to slide properly. This usually happens if you have taken the forks off and then put them back on without using a torque wrench to properly tighten the bolts to the proper specs.

If you haven't ever had the forks off, you still need to check the pinch bolts and alignment. Loosen the triple clamp pinch bolts up and then re-torque them. Also, loosen the axle pinch bolts and the axle nut, take the bike off the stand and compress the front forks a few times to center the axle. Tighten the pinch bolt closest to the axle nut and torque to the axle. Loosen the 1 tightened pinch bolt and then torque the axle pinch bolts. The alignment of the front end can become tweaked over time from crashes or hard impacts.

If you do all this properly and the problem persists, you probably have a problem internally with the inner cartridge. In that case you will need to have the forks serviced.
What you describe here with the pinch bolts being too tight or having the forks misaligned could potentially cause some binding.

How would binding forks make them feel ulta-soft as the OP describes?
mxtech1
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1968
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7/21/2011
Location
Galesburg, IL US
11/28/2011 8:13am
I''l send it to the shop next week, should be covered by warranty.
TKF Racing wrote:
I don't want to hijack this, but I have a question on the KTM warranty for you Aussie (or any one else who may be able...
I don't want to hijack this, but I have a question on the KTM warranty for you Aussie (or any one else who may be able to answer this).

We bought my son a left over 2009 125 at the beginning of this year. He was not putting the air filter back on correctly and a bunch of dirt got down in with the piston. It wouldn't start the one day so I took it back to the dealer. He put a compression gauge on it and said it was real low.

I do not know enough to replace the piston m self so I had them do it to the tune of 500 bucks, Should this have been under the warranty or since it was us not putting the filter back on correctly, does that void it.

Thanks for any help and I would not have an issue going back to the dealer and asking them about the warranty coverage.
No, this will not be covered by warranty. $500 seems very high for a 2 stroke top end job if all they replaced was a piston and gasket kit. The price for the parts should have been around $175 and they should have billed you for no more than 2 hours of labor time. I'm thinking the bill should have been around $300-$350 max. A 2 stroke top end job is easily done by a good mechanic in about 1 hour.

The only thing you could really do is refute the labor charges on the service work. you could ask the service manager what the flat rate time is quoted by KTM to replace the top end. Like I said, probably no more than 2 hours service time. If they billed you for over 2 hours, you need to have the manager break-down the time spent and see how long it really took them. If they incured extra time due to problems on the bike, the price is legit. But, if the mechanic was just slow and took his time and spent 4 or 5 hours rebulding the top end, the bill should have been lower.

Just fome FYI for the next time you take a bike for service. Never agree to the price of a quote for a job. For example, if they quote you $500 for the top end, the service manager knows you are willing to spend $500 so they are going to make sure that bill comes in right around $500 to maximize what they can charge you. If you would have said im willing to put $700 in it, they would have found other stuff to replace and charged you extra time to charge a bill around $700. you can't blame them for not doing it, that's just how business works. Instead of agreeing to a quote in a dollar amount, tell them you want a quote in shop time on how long it's going to take for the repair. You have more leverage in this position because the shop knows they only should spend X amount of hours to complete the repair. If they run over time by a large amount and your bill is high, you will be in a better position to refute the original quote.
mxtech1
Posts
1968
Joined
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Location
Galesburg, IL US
11/28/2011 8:29am
mxtech1 wrote:
the problem with the forks is that the triple clamp pinch bolts are probably too tight, which binds the outer fork tube and doesn't allow the...
the problem with the forks is that the triple clamp pinch bolts are probably too tight, which binds the outer fork tube and doesn't allow the inner fork to slide properly. This usually happens if you have taken the forks off and then put them back on without using a torque wrench to properly tighten the bolts to the proper specs.

If you haven't ever had the forks off, you still need to check the pinch bolts and alignment. Loosen the triple clamp pinch bolts up and then re-torque them. Also, loosen the axle pinch bolts and the axle nut, take the bike off the stand and compress the front forks a few times to center the axle. Tighten the pinch bolt closest to the axle nut and torque to the axle. Loosen the 1 tightened pinch bolt and then torque the axle pinch bolts. The alignment of the front end can become tweaked over time from crashes or hard impacts.

If you do all this properly and the problem persists, you probably have a problem internally with the inner cartridge. In that case you will need to have the forks serviced.
mooch wrote:
What you describe here with the pinch bolts being too tight or having the forks misaligned could potentially cause some binding. How would binding forks make...
What you describe here with the pinch bolts being too tight or having the forks misaligned could potentially cause some binding.

How would binding forks make them feel ulta-soft as the OP describes?
If the inner cartridge is bound down and not returning to the top of the stroke it will feel soft. When the rebound path is restricted in the inner cartridge, this will cause the fork to feel soft because it cannot fully return and start at the top of its own stroke, which is probably why he used the clickers to dial in some stiffness.

In this situation with the inner cartridge not returning to home position, the cartridge is already starting out inside its own stroke. Oil is displaced as the inner cartridge travels down throwing off the balance of the distribution of the oil. Alot of times cavitation occurs in these situations and the forks have to be serviced because the oil loses its viscosity. When the oil is not properly distributed into the inner cartridge, it will typically transfer into the outer cartridge. The oil in the outer cartridge controls the bottom 1/4 of fork travel. With more oil in the outer cartridge, the colume of air trapped in the outer cartridge is reduced and decreases the stiffness value of the air spring. All this adds up to a fork that easily blows through the first 3/4 travel and causes the fork to bottom easy. The valves aren't properly in tune and the fork spring is sacking through compression and reducing the overall spring stiffness.

The same thing happens if you adjust the rebound clicker to almost closed. The fork will initially feel stiffer, but once it travels enough to open the rebound valving, its return will be so slow the fork will begin to pack up and feel soft and mushy even though you have a "stiffer" setting.

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