Wow a different perspective on Neck Braces

seth505
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11/8/2011 6:42am
I agree with Sweden in that I would take most things a good rider says about safety equipment with a grain of salt.
MtnBoy
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11/8/2011 6:46am
How about a collarbone breaking so bad it puntures your lung and kills you? Think that has anything to do with the Leatt sitting/putting force directly on your collarbone?

Happened to a kid in Washington a couple years back. Their is no proof that they help you, seems to be some pretty good arguments that they hurt you.

To each their own....

I choose not to wear a neck brace, if I did, it would be the Alpinestars
seth505
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11/8/2011 6:51am
I broke my Tibia in the middle of my shin even though I had motocross boots on, also broke my foot another time with riding boots on. I still wear motocross boots.
11/8/2011 6:58am
Atlas and Nexis have both claimed to be showing their testing soon which will show how their products work. Atlas still has only got a landing page on their website so hopefully their launch at Eichma means they will launch the site to.

Right now none of the manufactures SHOW testing or anything technical/medical about how their products work, so hopefully by next season it will be easier to make a well educated choice.

The Shop

mark_swart
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11/8/2011 6:59am
It stands to reason that helmet and neck brace design have an impact on each other and should be tested and evaluated as such. There has also been a lot of research about SNELL/ANSI standard helments actually being too hard because they are tested for different types of impacts (street bike) than we tend to experience in MX.
In the end, I'm not riding a four stroke without a neck brace. Just like I never rode a two stroke without a full front and back chest protector after David Bailey's crash in 1987.
11/8/2011 7:08am
mark_swart wrote:
It stands to reason that helmet and neck brace design have an impact on each other and should be tested and evaluated as such. There has...
It stands to reason that helmet and neck brace design have an impact on each other and should be tested and evaluated as such. There has also been a lot of research about SNELL/ANSI standard helments actually being too hard because they are tested for different types of impacts (street bike) than we tend to experience in MX.
In the end, I'm not riding a four stroke without a neck brace. Just like I never rode a two stroke without a full front and back chest protector after David Bailey's crash in 1987.
The helmet and brace point is very valid. Nexis states that their is a difference with different helmets on their website.

Besides that no other manufacturer has made this point. Does this mean they have not looked at it, probably!

From what you say about snell/ansi/dot etc their would surely be a difference in performance with a neck brace and manufactures should state this on their product specs somewhere.

The shape of the helmet shell and the cut of the lower rim should surely also make a difference to performance. How about the construction of the helmet, composite vs plastic?
hey_man
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11/8/2011 7:21am
bt260 wrote:
It seems one of the more common injuries "caused" by a Leatt is to the T8-T9 vertebrae. The very first time I wore mine, I crashed...
It seems one of the more common injuries "caused" by a Leatt is to the T8-T9 vertebrae. The very first time I wore mine, I crashed and ended up with compression fractures to those very vertebrae. Here's the funny part, I didn't land head first. In fact I landed ass first and broke my sacrum (just above the tailbone) as well. My helmet never even touched the ground. I can see where the load transfered from the neck is directed to the sternum/spine, but there's so much shit going on when we hit the deck, who knows what's causing what?

I was on the fence about neck braces in general. The lack of independent studies is definitely cause for concern. I have compression fractured my C5 vertebrae before, maybe a brace would have prevented that, maybe it would have broke my sternum instead. Who knows? I bought a Leatt at the end of September from a friend who was getting out of racing. First ride (October 1st) with it yielded me a broken back through no fault of the brace.

I'm still on the fence....
The brace does not prevent injury from pure axial load and the Leatt company states this on their website. Due to the curvature of the spine, an axial load is concentrated at the lower thoracic spine. This is well known. The brace did not cause your T-spine injury nor did it prevent it.

If you read about cervical spine injuries, you will find that the most common cause of catastrophic injury is hyperflexion/hyperextension. It's a pumpkin on a broomstick. Acceleration is change in velocity over change in time. If you can increase the time, you decrease the acceleration. That's how the brace works, it increases the time over which your head decelerates via a cushion effect. Any pad uses the same principle including your helmet. It doesn't transfer any force to your thoracic spine.

A fracture of the clavicle is 50 times more common than a C-spine fracture. Clavicular fractures are caused by a force directly to the shoulder, fall on an outstretched hand or direct force (including force from the chin of the helmet). The brace will only help with the third cause. Pressure equals force over area. If you increase the area (via dispersion from the brace) you decrease the pressure on the clavicle. The brace does not cause a clavicular fracture. Even if it did, I would take that over a C-spine fracture any day.
Elbows
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Fantasy
11/8/2011 7:22am Edited Date/Time 11/8/2011 7:23am
I wouldn't bag on anyone for wearing one or not but it should be a personal decision. I have one but i've chose not to wear it after seeing two of the guys I ride with become paralyzed while using them. I'm sure they help under certain circumstances but I also think they may cause harm also. If you believe in them, then wear it. If you don't, leave it at home like I do. Just my 2 cents.
bangmyhead
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11/8/2011 7:49am
Neck Brace broke my clavicle, I was wearing an aplinestars brace. I felt without the brace i would have been fine.
When i ejected i rolled onto my back to do the "tuck and roll" the lip off the back of the brace caught the ground and im lucky it didnt break my neck when it flipped me feet over head sliding head first at about 20mph


Felt like it almost broke my sternum, i was freaking sore up front
hey_man
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11/8/2011 11:37am
Well, that was a nice discussion. Next topic... you guessed it...
The seat bounce.
And begin.
Rewindcaz
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11/8/2011 11:46am Edited Date/Time 11/8/2011 11:47am
Face the reality; neck-braces are a business.

Of course they will claim as much 'amazing' and positive research/results as possible, they want everyone convinced that neck-braces are absolutely necessary. They are a business, the objective is to make money. Doh?

That's not to say neck-braces are a bad thing, but, I do think there is more to neck-braces than simply 'added protection.' Reedy has a very valid point and unlike a lot of protection, neck-braces do have negative effects as well. You can't deny that they restrict your movement and do not allow you to tuck your head as instincts would want. You gain some and you lose some. You protect an area and you weaken another -- the same thing can be said about boots. You protect your ankles/feet/lower leg but also make your knees pay the price in certain crashes.

It's up to you to decide whether or not you believe a certain product protects in a positive way and is worth the money spent.
MotoX85
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11/8/2011 12:02pm
I havn't heard this mentioned yet so here it goes. This is an old discussion, Carmichael and Stewart have not used a neck brace EVER. In fact Carmichael stated that he did not believe in the science behind the neck brace and said he turned down a butt load of money to wear one casue he thought it could actually cause more damage. Stewart basically said the same thing.

No RD and CR are taking them off - very interesting.

My son wears one, I do not, but after all this, we may be going back to the Millsaps style neck roll.
WR5
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11/8/2011 12:06pm
Remenber Steve Ramon crash at Lommel? the doctor says the Leatt saved him from a major injury!
CamP
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11/8/2011 12:12pm
MotoX85 wrote:
I havn't heard this mentioned yet so here it goes. This is an old discussion, Carmichael and Stewart have not used a neck brace EVER. In...
I havn't heard this mentioned yet so here it goes. This is an old discussion, Carmichael and Stewart have not used a neck brace EVER. In fact Carmichael stated that he did not believe in the science behind the neck brace and said he turned down a butt load of money to wear one casue he thought it could actually cause more damage. Stewart basically said the same thing.

No RD and CR are taking them off - very interesting.

My son wears one, I do not, but after all this, we may be going back to the Millsaps style neck roll.
The only advice I'd take from any of those guys is what gear to hit the triple.
mjskier
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11/8/2011 12:42pm
Now RD and CR are taking them off - very interesting.
It would be a lot more interesting if all the top riders were taking theirs off. KW, RV, Musquin, Wilson are still wearing theirs (just to name a few off the top of my head)
Shenzi
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Fantasy
11/8/2011 12:49pm
since we are talking about neck-braces... SPAM-TIME!

Here's the new Dainese Hybrid Neck-Brace coming out soon. Nothing resting on spine.





mix of carbon-fiber and proprietary memory-foam use.
peelout
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11/8/2011 12:50pm
my opinion is that Reed was stating his opinion.

that is all.
jtiger12
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11/8/2011 1:01pm
randys..... If I fly out to cali, can I drive your porsche?
MtnBoy
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11/8/2011 1:10pm
Reed also said he didn't think anyone else should base their opinion off of his opinion.

To each their own....
mac3-d
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11/8/2011 1:50pm
to all those who wear a neck brack. DO you ride harder & faster doing more jumps believing the neck brack will save your neck ?
bearded clam
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11/8/2011 2:28pm
DrSweden wrote:
There are some questions that most likely will be answered in the future, but Reed not wearing one and blaming his friends death because of it...
There are some questions that most likely will be answered in the future, but Reed not wearing one and blaming his friends death because of it sounds like he reacts solely out of emotions, which is understandable when someone close die.

For me, what Chad Reed says about cornering, jumping or riding in general I tend to listen to. What Chad Reed says about physics, safety gear, sports medicine and research I tend to ignore...
Andrew made a mistake and crashed...thats his fault. What ever happened after that was a result of his mistake. I dont wear a leatt and wont but blaming a death on a safety product is kinda far fetched I think. Until there is more research we wont know and by the way things are going Im not seeing any real research like we do w seat belts happening any time soon.
burnside
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11/8/2011 2:32pm
MotoX85 wrote:
I havn't heard this mentioned yet so here it goes. This is an old discussion, Carmichael and Stewart have not used a neck brace EVER. In...
I havn't heard this mentioned yet so here it goes. This is an old discussion, Carmichael and Stewart have not used a neck brace EVER. In fact Carmichael stated that he did not believe in the science behind the neck brace and said he turned down a butt load of money to wear one casue he thought it could actually cause more damage. Stewart basically said the same thing.

No RD and CR are taking them off - very interesting.

My son wears one, I do not, but after all this, we may be going back to the Millsaps style neck roll.
This crash RC has here, is the kind of crash that if he was wearing a neckbrace, guys would be claiming it saved his life.

[embed][/embed]
RandyS
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11/8/2011 3:01pm Edited Date/Time 11/8/2011 3:22pm
"randys..... If I fly out to cali, can I drive your porsche?"

Sure.................................If it was mine, at the time I put that up I was 993 shopping, then we found out my wife was pregnant. I ended up with a BMW 5 Series insteadSad . I'm too lazy to change it. I'm still getting a 98 911.............some day, just probably not anytime soon.
MX558
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11/8/2011 3:06pm
I hit a bike 3rd. tapped on my 450 this summer, over the bars I went. I landed on my head and back I was wearing the A*'s brace and one thing I felt was my neck felt very stable through the whole crash. I have no idea if it saved me from anything worse but I walked away unbroken sore but unbroken. lol That being said I still wear it and so does my son.
NP301
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11/8/2011 3:09pm
RandyS wrote:
Reed, says he believes the neck brace contributed or caused McFarlanes death. Many of us here have questioned the claims made by Leatt, but I believe...
Reed, says he believes the neck brace contributed or caused McFarlanes death. Many of us here have questioned the claims made by Leatt, but I believe this is the first time I've heard talk of the brain taking more trauma. Makes as much or more sense as the claims to the positive by Leatt.
They put alot of pressure on your sturnum (that's how you spell it?) and can cause heart punches. I don't wear one.
RandyS
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11/8/2011 3:18pm
Reed never said the brace was the sole cause. He said that after seeing the autopsy report he believes it contributed to the brain trauma. I would have to believe since he isn't a doctor that he talked with someone in the know in Australia. Common sense tells me that anything that limits the bodies ability to absorb trauma from head to toe is going to put more on the area before the stop.

Using a neck brace is every riders choice, and every rider should look and think deeply about it. But when Marshall and Fonseca got hurt, and then a well intentioned DB jumped of the Leatt bandwagon. Almost overnight it became either you jump on the bandwagon or you're going to end up in a chair. There are less people riding today than 3 years ago, yet I don't think anyone can prove there have been any less traumatic injuries. There should be drastically less. Where's the proof. Does anyone really believe Dungey stopped because it popped open, that's a pretty easy fix.
11/8/2011 3:32pm
RandyS wrote:
Reed, says he believes the neck brace contributed or caused McFarlanes death. Many of us here have questioned the claims made by Leatt, but I believe...
Reed, says he believes the neck brace contributed or caused McFarlanes death. Many of us here have questioned the claims made by Leatt, but I believe this is the first time I've heard talk of the brain taking more trauma. Makes as much or more sense as the claims to the positive by Leatt.
So does that mean that the neck brace is so much more advanced then the helmet is? Maybe the helmet has to catch up. Maybe the brace saved is neck but the helmet was to poor to do it's job! So if it wasn't for the neck brace then is neck would have flexed saving his head? I'm a huge Reed fan but this sounds like one of those what if the Queen had balls? Then she would be King... You could what if anything all day long...
chuck317
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11/8/2011 3:40pm
San Miguel wrote:
Exactly it all depends on the dynamic of the crash and all the factors involved...hell, if you fall down the stairs wearing a Leatt if you...
Exactly it all depends on the dynamic of the crash and all the factors involved...hell, if you fall down the stairs wearing a Leatt if you hit the deck at the right angle you're dead. bottom line is that protective equipment, no matter how good or how much of it you are wearing, can only do so much..
my girlfriend fell down the stairs three weeks ago today. broke all ribs on right side but top and bottom, puncured lung, broke clavicle, wrist, bruised other lung. still in hospital. she was not wearinfg a leatt
DrSweden
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11/8/2011 3:51pm
RandyS wrote:
"randys..... If I fly out to cali, can I drive your porsche?" Sure.................................If it was mine, at the time I put that up I was 993...
"randys..... If I fly out to cali, can I drive your porsche?"

Sure.................................If it was mine, at the time I put that up I was 993 shopping, then we found out my wife was pregnant. I ended up with a BMW 5 Series insteadSad . I'm too lazy to change it. I'm still getting a 98 911.............some day, just probably not anytime soon.
Hey my 993 is for sale! Maybe wrong country though! Dry
DrSweden
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11/8/2011 4:03pm Edited Date/Time 11/8/2011 4:06pm
Andrew made a mistake and crashed...thats his fault. What ever happened after that was a result of his mistake. I dont wear a leatt and wont...
Andrew made a mistake and crashed...thats his fault. What ever happened after that was a result of his mistake. I dont wear a leatt and wont but blaming a death on a safety product is kinda far fetched I think. Until there is more research we wont know and by the way things are going Im not seeing any real research like we do w seat belts happening any time soon.
You have valid points. Still since there's tons of cash to be made here, maybe that could speed up any future studies?

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