Calling Out Matthes

race
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9/27/2011 5:12pm
mxb2 wrote:
Never claimed to be an insider, as I said I am a fan of both types of bikes.I am just stating what the consumer is buying...
Never claimed to be an insider, as I said I am a fan of both types of bikes.I am just stating what the consumer is buying, and if the 2 stoke was selling they still would be producing them. And like I said before all the 2 stroke fans are buying used bikes. Selling bikes is a business not a hard thing to figure out. Keep buying used and the factories will sooner or later stop making 2 strokes all together. Credit to TM, KTM, Husky for updates, thumbs down to yamaha for not changing anything since like 06. If they were selling, the factories would be producing both 2 and 4 strokes. 2 stroke fans , speak with your $$$$$$$ and buy new.
You're trying to use reason and facts about how and why OEM's make certain bikes. Others are using emotion. Don't expect it to sink in.
This is why these threads go on forever. You guys really don't get it.

The consumer never really even had a choice to "speak with their wallet" as the market was artificially skewed by a number of factors that combined to form a perfect and vicious circle.

- Rules were changed to clearly favor 4s over 2s.
- Almost immediately all Pro and amateur teams switched to 4s. Most likely there was zero support $$ to carry on as a 2s team.
- Mfgr. development was dropped from 2s altogether and put into 4s. ( KTM the lone exception )
- Within a short period 3 of the big 4 dropped their 2s ( big bike ) line altogether ( in the USA).
- Yamaha, the lone exception of the big four, has made only token changes for the last 5 years, yet has continued to raise the price year to year.
- The Big Four have clearly pushed all their advertising $$ into their 4s line ... and probably see the 2s line as, at best, a minor nuisance to their 4s sales figures.

Now, against all of that .... a totally skewed and manipulated market place ... you want to claim the consumer spoke? The fact is, the consumer was herded into the 4s world like so many sheep. You may like a 2s or a 4s but the market place you made your choice in was a completely artificial one created by the mfgrs ... and the AMA.

The fact that there are ANY 2s bikes still offered is a testament to the demand that is still out there. Unfortunately, the choice, with the exception of a few small Euro brands, has been whittled down to KTM .... and the aging YZ250. Both of which sell out almost immediately each year.
EastFlorida
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9/27/2011 5:19pm
Matthes wrote:
I'm starting to think some people that love 2-strokes also believe in the fact the twin towers were brought down by the government to start a...
I'm starting to think some people that love 2-strokes also believe in the fact the twin towers were brought down by the government to start a war. Some VERY huge leaps in logic here.
Steve,

This is the type of response that confirms to many that you are "out of touch" with the fan base of the sport.

Have you seperated yourself so much that you are that out of touch?

You need to hear what is being said and set aside your own personal biases.

That is what a "reporter" does - He listens to both side foregoing his own personal opinions and reports them.

Have you done so with all the post regarding 2 strokes?

No, you've only pushed back..

Thus, your credibility is in question.

Is your job to report what the factories want or to give the fans what they want to see/hear?

Based on your replies, it seems you are not listening to a significant percentage of the fan base/market.
Jarid332
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Fantasy
9/27/2011 5:21pm
Jarid332 wrote:
I had a shitty day at work... I blame 4 strokes!
Well you better not blame the Bears,,,Laughing Whistling
The bears are the reason I get outta bed every morning for that shithole.
machine
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9/27/2011 5:21pm
I think this debate would end if the all the OEM's offered modern 2-strokes to folks again like KTM does. A lot of it is frustration from the consumers is that 4-strokes have been shoved down their throats.

The OEM's have basically said, here's your 4-strokes, weather you like them or not. Don't want one?.......too bad.

The Shop

EastFlorida
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9/27/2011 5:25pm
machine wrote:
I think this debate would end if the all the OEM's offered modern 2-strokes to folks again like KTM does. A lot of it is frustration...
I think this debate would end if the all the OEM's offered modern 2-strokes to folks again like KTM does. A lot of it is frustration from the consumers is that 4-strokes have been shoved down their throats.

The OEM's have basically said, here's your 4-strokes, weather you like them or not. Don't want one?.......too bad.
The consequence being my neighbor will not buy a new bike because it is to expensive to buy and maintain. If he chooses to ride, he'll buy a used 2 stroke - he won't touch a used 4 stroke...
FreshTopEnd
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9/27/2011 5:26pm
The consumer never really even had a choice to "speak with their wallet" as the market was artificially skewed by a number of factors that combined to form a perfect and vicious circle.


Consumers had a choice and have a choice. Consumers bought four strokes while both were being made. Consumers can buy two strokes now. That's a fact.

But if some or all of the OEM's concluded that they were bound and determined to switch over away from two strokes, and the dynamics of what people spend their money on won't change that, nothing else will force them to make bikes they aren't making now.
SteveS
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9/27/2011 5:33pm
[b]The consumer never really even had a choice to "speak with their wallet" as the market was artificially skewed by a number of factors that combined...
The consumer never really even had a choice to "speak with their wallet" as the market was artificially skewed by a number of factors that combined to form a perfect and vicious circle.


Consumers had a choice and have a choice. Consumers bought four strokes while both were being made. Consumers can buy two strokes now. That's a fact.

But if some or all of the OEM's concluded that they were bound and determined to switch over away from two strokes, and the dynamics of what people spend their money on won't change that, nothing else will force them to make bikes they aren't making now.
Consumers bought 4 strokes because back in 2005-2006 it became clear that given the rules, you weren't going to have a chance of winning on a 125. It wasn't until they became so widespread that we all found out we'd been had. Nobody really knew that they were time bombs waiting to evict $2000 from your wallet and into the dealer's hands when the valves took a dump.

Now, 5-6 years later with a dying economy we are wanting to go back to the 2 stroke but there aren't any left except the old Yamaha and the KTM.
EastFlorida
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9/27/2011 5:34pm Edited Date/Time 9/27/2011 5:37pm
[b]The consumer never really even had a choice to "speak with their wallet" as the market was artificially skewed by a number of factors that combined...
The consumer never really even had a choice to "speak with their wallet" as the market was artificially skewed by a number of factors that combined to form a perfect and vicious circle.


Consumers had a choice and have a choice. Consumers bought four strokes while both were being made. Consumers can buy two strokes now. That's a fact.

But if some or all of the OEM's concluded that they were bound and determined to switch over away from two strokes, and the dynamics of what people spend their money on won't change that, nothing else will force them to make bikes they aren't making now.
FTE, I fear that there will be several years upcoming where the amature and privateer efforts will decline significantly. Why, because of cost to enter the sport and the cost to remain in it.

4 strokes can survive with 2 strokes. 2 strokes need equal footing on the track.

Too many have said over and over agiain that the cost to participate is a significant factor.

The general public needs options to consider participation and that opyion is a fairly matched 2 stroke.

This also applied to the local Pro that wins everything in site and attempts the closest AMA National. He can make an attempt without blowing his budget for the remainder of his local efforts.

Too many are forgetting that local racing/riding supports the pro efforts... Without them. our sport is doomed...

Eric Gorr's 2 stroke business is blowing up...

Why?

The local trail rider doesn't go to Gorr for a big bore kit, a re-sleeve, or port job, etc... It is the local racer...
EastFlorida
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9/27/2011 5:34pm
[b]The consumer never really even had a choice to "speak with their wallet" as the market was artificially skewed by a number of factors that combined...
The consumer never really even had a choice to "speak with their wallet" as the market was artificially skewed by a number of factors that combined to form a perfect and vicious circle.


Consumers had a choice and have a choice. Consumers bought four strokes while both were being made. Consumers can buy two strokes now. That's a fact.

But if some or all of the OEM's concluded that they were bound and determined to switch over away from two strokes, and the dynamics of what people spend their money on won't change that, nothing else will force them to make bikes they aren't making now.
SteveS wrote:
Consumers bought 4 strokes because back in 2005-2006 it became clear that given the rules, you weren't going to have a chance of winning on a...
Consumers bought 4 strokes because back in 2005-2006 it became clear that given the rules, you weren't going to have a chance of winning on a 125. It wasn't until they became so widespread that we all found out we'd been had. Nobody really knew that they were time bombs waiting to evict $2000 from your wallet and into the dealer's hands when the valves took a dump.

Now, 5-6 years later with a dying economy we are wanting to go back to the 2 stroke but there aren't any left except the old Yamaha and the KTM.
Excellent....
machine
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9/27/2011 5:42pm
[b]The consumer never really even had a choice to "speak with their wallet" as the market was artificially skewed by a number of factors that combined...
The consumer never really even had a choice to "speak with their wallet" as the market was artificially skewed by a number of factors that combined to form a perfect and vicious circle.


Consumers had a choice and have a choice. Consumers bought four strokes while both were being made. Consumers can buy two strokes now. That's a fact.

But if some or all of the OEM's concluded that they were bound and determined to switch over away from two strokes, and the dynamics of what people spend their money on won't change that, nothing else will force them to make bikes they aren't making now.
Yes, their is one OEM making a reasonably priced 2-stroke with modern technology, is that really a choice? I happen to like KTM, so i'm okay with mine, however, not everyone likes KTM's. They are left with no other choice, that's not what a free market is supposed to be is it?

Also, you are correct, comsumers did go out and buy 4-strokes in droves after being told that 4-strokes were the best thing since sliced bread by all the mags. Then they see all their favorite riders racing them, so again, they thought to themselves, self I gotta get me one of them there 4-strokes.

It's all marketing and the OEM's know the MX community are sheep and tend to be copy cat followers. The plan has worked so far. Are 4-strokes easier to ride and race, yes they are. Are they the best bike for everyone, absolutely not. Low cost maintenance and being simple to maintain are big factors when it comes to the average joe.
EastFlorida
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9/27/2011 5:48pm Edited Date/Time 9/27/2011 5:52pm
[b]The consumer never really even had a choice to "speak with their wallet" as the market was artificially skewed by a number of factors that combined...
The consumer never really even had a choice to "speak with their wallet" as the market was artificially skewed by a number of factors that combined to form a perfect and vicious circle.


Consumers had a choice and have a choice. Consumers bought four strokes while both were being made. Consumers can buy two strokes now. That's a fact.

But if some or all of the OEM's concluded that they were bound and determined to switch over away from two strokes, and the dynamics of what people spend their money on won't change that, nothing else will force them to make bikes they aren't making now.
machine wrote:
Yes, their is one OEM making a reasonably priced 2-stroke with modern technology, is that really a choice? I happen to like KTM, so i'm okay...
Yes, their is one OEM making a reasonably priced 2-stroke with modern technology, is that really a choice? I happen to like KTM, so i'm okay with mine, however, not everyone likes KTM's. They are left with no other choice, that's not what a free market is supposed to be is it?

Also, you are correct, comsumers did go out and buy 4-strokes in droves after being told that 4-strokes were the best thing since sliced bread by all the mags. Then they see all their favorite riders racing them, so again, they thought to themselves, self I gotta get me one of them there 4-strokes.

It's all marketing and the OEM's know the MX community are sheep and tend to be copy cat followers. The plan has worked so far. Are 4-strokes easier to ride and race, yes they are. Are they the best bike for everyone, absolutely not. Low cost maintenance and being simple to maintain are big factors when it comes to the average joe.
Another great perspective.

BUT, until the MX media is willing to report on the fan base/privateer opinion, nothing will happen.

Why are they scared to have an interview with the OEMs about all the activity about 2 strokes?

This has been beaten to death recently and not one has broached the subject with an OEM.

This is the "off season" and the perfect time to get some answers and positions.

Why hasn't DC, Swap, Matthes, Nerd and others had an interview asking the OEMs about all the message boards and the discussions about 2 strokes?

Because it will ruffle feathers.

Which one will "man up" first to broach the subject? Let's see...

Then, we'll see who the tag alongs are who will then start asking the same questions...

Anyone willing to bet who will address the topic with the OEMs first?
machine
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9/27/2011 5:59pm
Another great perspective. BUT, until the MX media is willing to report on the fan base/privateer opinion, nothing will happen. Why are they scared to have...
Another great perspective.

BUT, until the MX media is willing to report on the fan base/privateer opinion, nothing will happen.

Why are they scared to have an interview with the OEMs about all the activity about 2 strokes?

This has been beaten to death recently and not one has broached the subject with an OEM.

This is the "off season" and the perfect time to get some answers and positions.

Why hasn't DC, Swap, Matthes, Nerd and others had an interview asking the OEMs about all the message boards and the discussions about 2 strokes?

Because it will ruffle feathers.

Which one will "man up" first to broach the subject? Let's see...

Then, we'll see who the tag alongs are who will then start asking the same questions...

Anyone willing to bet who will address the topic with the OEMs first?
Yeah, everyone keeps saying, "well, just vote with your wallet then". Well, in order to vote with your wallet, it helps to have more than one bike to choose from.

I think the mags need to step up like they did when they touted the 4-strokes as the end all be all. OEM's tend to listen to mags, at least they used too. I commend MXA for doing so, even if they once were on the bandwagon helping to sway our opinions the opposite direction.
seth505
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9/27/2011 6:03pm
Flatliner wrote:
You guys who think mx costs too much should be thankful your kids aren't into roadracing. Its expensive just to be a casual track guy in...
You guys who think mx costs too much should be thankful your kids aren't into roadracing. Its expensive just to be a casual track guy in that sport.
True, but the answer to shut people up isn't "other stuff is more expensive. We need to leave all other sports/motorsports out of it and see how we can help our sport.
I road raced for a year and the biggest difference for me was tires, $400 set of slicks sucks. It sucks even more if you are racing a 600cc bike or up and need sets of tires every race weekend...ouch.
hellion
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9/27/2011 6:04pm
Matthes wrote:
I'm starting to think some people that love 2-strokes also believe in the fact the twin towers were brought down by the government to start a...
I'm starting to think some people that love 2-strokes also believe in the fact the twin towers were brought down by the government to start a war. Some VERY huge leaps in logic here.
Steve, don't stoop to this level. There is also some very sound logic in here. An 'unbiased' reporter who worked for a magazine might even see a great story in all this. That is, if said magazine didn't have a horse in the race. Theres your conspiracy theory.
FreshTopEnd
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9/27/2011 6:04pm
So, how do you force a business designed to make a profit to create a production line to make a line of new, fresh bikes, maybe 2,000 units world wide, fresher than the Yamaha and cheaper than both the KTM and Yamaha? And in a bad economy to boot, which has nothing at all whatsoever to do with what kind of bikes they make now?

Do people really believe that instituting a rule that purportedly is going to benefit maybe 50 guys who want to be pro but are not good enough to get support is going to the change the OEM production decision? And do it when some of those companies have already looked at the far larger, unrestricted non-pro market and stopped making that particular type of bike? Even though, as some contend, people were clamoring for two strokes throughout the entire period?

I love two strokes. I have owned them and will own them. Hope they keep making them and the others who stopped start making them again

Some of you are falling into the trap of thinking that if you like something or it matters a lot to you, most people feel the same way. Some of your assumptions about the prevailing mood of the fan base are pure speculation.
ebers
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9/27/2011 6:09pm
Buy a 500 2-stroke and get the best of both worlds.... both a bike that's cheap to maintain and yet still offer way more motor then us normal mortals need.
Rewindcaz
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9/27/2011 6:12pm Edited Date/Time 9/27/2011 6:12pm
I don't understand why this ever becomes a debate. 4-strokes have their advantages and disadvantages. Guess what? So do 2-strokes.

Like Matthes said, why does this have to be about right/wrong? See them for what they are, and move on.

You guys want a sticker that says "2-strokes are awesome" or something? Will that settle all of this?
EastFlorida
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9/27/2011 6:12pm
So, how do you force a business designed to make a profit to create a production line to make a line of new, fresh bikes, maybe...
So, how do you force a business designed to make a profit to create a production line to make a line of new, fresh bikes, maybe 2,000 units world wide, fresher than the Yamaha and cheaper than both the KTM and Yamaha? And in a bad economy to boot, which has nothing at all whatsoever to do with what kind of bikes they make now?

Do people really believe that instituting a rule that purportedly is going to benefit maybe 50 guys who want to be pro but are not good enough to get support is going to the change the OEM production decision? And do it when some of those companies have already looked at the far larger, unrestricted non-pro market and stopped making that particular type of bike? Even though, as some contend, people were clamoring for two strokes throughout the entire period?

I love two strokes. I have owned them and will own them. Hope they keep making them and the others who stopped start making them again

Some of you are falling into the trap of thinking that if you like something or it matters a lot to you, most people feel the same way. Some of your assumptions about the prevailing mood of the fan base are pure speculation.
FTE,

Hmmm, You state you're a 2 stroke fan. But EVERY reply by you to a 2 stroke post has been to shoot down the respective argument. As smart as you are, I don't get where you are coming from.

If your position is indeed true, help guide the misguided efforts by myself and many others rather than shoot holes into the current efforts.

Thanks!
ebers
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9/27/2011 6:14pm
Rewindcaz wrote:
I don't understand why this ever becomes a debate. 4-strokes have their advantages and disadvantages. Guess what? So do 2-strokes. Like Matthes said, why does this...
I don't understand why this ever becomes a debate. 4-strokes have their advantages and disadvantages. Guess what? So do 2-strokes.

Like Matthes said, why does this have to be about right/wrong? See them for what they are, and move on.

You guys want a sticker that says "2-strokes are awesome" or something? Will that settle all of this?
I like the idea of a sticker for everyone that just says "I'm a knucklehead" Smile
EastFlorida
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9/27/2011 6:14pm
Rewindcaz wrote:
I don't understand why this ever becomes a debate. 4-strokes have their advantages and disadvantages. Guess what? So do 2-strokes. Like Matthes said, why does this...
I don't understand why this ever becomes a debate. 4-strokes have their advantages and disadvantages. Guess what? So do 2-strokes.

Like Matthes said, why does this have to be about right/wrong? See them for what they are, and move on.

You guys want a sticker that says "2-strokes are awesome" or something? Will that settle all of this?
Dude, you're missing the point. I don't see the masses that supports 2 stokes saying one is better than the other. Simply want equal cc to cc class.
EastFlorida
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9/27/2011 6:15pm
Rewindcaz wrote:
I don't understand why this ever becomes a debate. 4-strokes have their advantages and disadvantages. Guess what? So do 2-strokes. Like Matthes said, why does this...
I don't understand why this ever becomes a debate. 4-strokes have their advantages and disadvantages. Guess what? So do 2-strokes.

Like Matthes said, why does this have to be about right/wrong? See them for what they are, and move on.

You guys want a sticker that says "2-strokes are awesome" or something? Will that settle all of this?
ebers wrote:
I like the idea of a sticker for everyone that just says "I'm a knucklehead" Smile
Where do I need to send your sticker?

.
beandip
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9/27/2011 6:22pm
FTE, I fear that there will be several years upcoming where the amature and privateer efforts will decline significantly. Why, because of cost to enter the...
FTE, I fear that there will be several years upcoming where the amature and privateer efforts will decline significantly. Why, because of cost to enter the sport and the cost to remain in it.

4 strokes can survive with 2 strokes. 2 strokes need equal footing on the track.

Too many have said over and over agiain that the cost to participate is a significant factor.

The general public needs options to consider participation and that opyion is a fairly matched 2 stroke.

This also applied to the local Pro that wins everything in site and attempts the closest AMA National. He can make an attempt without blowing his budget for the remainder of his local efforts.

Too many are forgetting that local racing/riding supports the pro efforts... Without them. our sport is doomed...

Eric Gorr's 2 stroke business is blowing up...

Why?

The local trail rider doesn't go to Gorr for a big bore kit, a re-sleeve, or port job, etc... It is the local racer...
Happened to us. Early 2000's track attendance and riders through the roof. New tracks popping up it was nuts but fun we could race at 3 tracks within an hour which is pretty good for middle of nowhere USA. Bikes changed to four strokes, everyone got one right away. Did good for a few years and I was always happy with the bikes. My little brother who won any and every series around here on 125s, blew up his crf a few times said it was rediculous cost and took the fun out of it. He continued on his 125 again, but many others hung it up, and it showed at the track. All 3 tracks as of now are closed (2 indefinately, 1 is open ride only with extremely high $$ to ride there and they sold all the land around it so no parking lot even, you have to basically find a way to ride your bike to the track or park on the side of a very busy highway) due to rider attendance. We continue to travel 3+ hours to bigger areas just to ride, but all else from our area quit. The biggest track in our area had zero A riders show up the last 3 races....I guess its cheaper and easier to sit at home and drink beer....for now I'm content racing my vintage and slow '01 and see what happens to everyone else Smile
EastFlorida
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9/27/2011 6:26pm Edited Date/Time 9/27/2011 6:27pm
FTE, I fear that there will be several years upcoming where the amature and privateer efforts will decline significantly. Why, because of cost to enter the...
FTE, I fear that there will be several years upcoming where the amature and privateer efforts will decline significantly. Why, because of cost to enter the sport and the cost to remain in it.

4 strokes can survive with 2 strokes. 2 strokes need equal footing on the track.

Too many have said over and over agiain that the cost to participate is a significant factor.

The general public needs options to consider participation and that opyion is a fairly matched 2 stroke.

This also applied to the local Pro that wins everything in site and attempts the closest AMA National. He can make an attempt without blowing his budget for the remainder of his local efforts.

Too many are forgetting that local racing/riding supports the pro efforts... Without them. our sport is doomed...

Eric Gorr's 2 stroke business is blowing up...

Why?

The local trail rider doesn't go to Gorr for a big bore kit, a re-sleeve, or port job, etc... It is the local racer...
beandip wrote:
Happened to us. Early 2000's track attendance and riders through the roof. New tracks popping up it was nuts but fun we could race at 3...
Happened to us. Early 2000's track attendance and riders through the roof. New tracks popping up it was nuts but fun we could race at 3 tracks within an hour which is pretty good for middle of nowhere USA. Bikes changed to four strokes, everyone got one right away. Did good for a few years and I was always happy with the bikes. My little brother who won any and every series around here on 125s, blew up his crf a few times said it was rediculous cost and took the fun out of it. He continued on his 125 again, but many others hung it up, and it showed at the track. All 3 tracks as of now are closed (2 indefinately, 1 is open ride only with extremely high $$ to ride there and they sold all the land around it so no parking lot even, you have to basically find a way to ride your bike to the track or park on the side of a very busy highway) due to rider attendance. We continue to travel 3+ hours to bigger areas just to ride, but all else from our area quit. The biggest track in our area had zero A riders show up the last 3 races....I guess its cheaper and easier to sit at home and drink beer....for now I'm content racing my vintage and slow '01 and see what happens to everyone else Smile
This is what the MX Media needs to be reporting on!

Matthes, Nerd, Swap, DC... What do you think?

Anyone media?

Pros depend on amatures....
machine
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9/27/2011 6:27pm
So, how do you force a business designed to make a profit to create a production line to make a line of new, fresh bikes, maybe...
So, how do you force a business designed to make a profit to create a production line to make a line of new, fresh bikes, maybe 2,000 units world wide, fresher than the Yamaha and cheaper than both the KTM and Yamaha? And in a bad economy to boot, which has nothing at all whatsoever to do with what kind of bikes they make now?

Do people really believe that instituting a rule that purportedly is going to benefit maybe 50 guys who want to be pro but are not good enough to get support is going to the change the OEM production decision? And do it when some of those companies have already looked at the far larger, unrestricted non-pro market and stopped making that particular type of bike? Even though, as some contend, people were clamoring for two strokes throughout the entire period?

I love two strokes. I have owned them and will own them. Hope they keep making them and the others who stopped start making them again

Some of you are falling into the trap of thinking that if you like something or it matters a lot to you, most people feel the same way. Some of your assumptions about the prevailing mood of the fan base are pure speculation.
There are two things that would need to happen......

1. the mags need to step up and give equal time and space to the 2-strokes

2. the AMA needs to change the rules to equal the playing field.

Then and only then, will there be choice and parity between the bikes. Those two entities created this mess, they can reverse it as well.

Choice and an even playing field is all anyone is asking for here.
mx196
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9/27/2011 6:31pm
I race a 250 two stroke myself and against the 450's you need a good start or your life is twice as difficult. One cant argue that a 250 two stroke is faster than a 450 though. Thats just being ignorant. Against a 250f though you definitly have an advantage.
FreshTopEnd
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9/27/2011 6:33pm
So, how do you force a business designed to make a profit to create a production line to make a line of new, fresh bikes, maybe...
So, how do you force a business designed to make a profit to create a production line to make a line of new, fresh bikes, maybe 2,000 units world wide, fresher than the Yamaha and cheaper than both the KTM and Yamaha? And in a bad economy to boot, which has nothing at all whatsoever to do with what kind of bikes they make now?

Do people really believe that instituting a rule that purportedly is going to benefit maybe 50 guys who want to be pro but are not good enough to get support is going to the change the OEM production decision? And do it when some of those companies have already looked at the far larger, unrestricted non-pro market and stopped making that particular type of bike? Even though, as some contend, people were clamoring for two strokes throughout the entire period?

I love two strokes. I have owned them and will own them. Hope they keep making them and the others who stopped start making them again

Some of you are falling into the trap of thinking that if you like something or it matters a lot to you, most people feel the same way. Some of your assumptions about the prevailing mood of the fan base are pure speculation.
FTE, Hmmm, You state you're a 2 stroke fan. But EVERY reply by you to a 2 stroke post has been to shoot down the respective...
FTE,

Hmmm, You state you're a 2 stroke fan. But EVERY reply by you to a 2 stroke post has been to shoot down the respective argument. As smart as you are, I don't get where you are coming from.

If your position is indeed true, help guide the misguided efforts by myself and many others rather than shoot holes into the current efforts.

Thanks!
Liking two strokes means I have to believe there's a conspiracy and deny that most consumers willingly and joyfully bought four strokes and abandoned two strokes when all companies were still making them?

I'm rational. I know what it costs businesses to make significant production changes, in any economy let alone this one. If people can't come to grips with that dynamic, and stick to resorting to some of the crazy ideas that get vetted in these and the sheer lack of focus on what solution people actually want, then you are the biggest part of the problem whether you like two strokes or not.
EastFlorida
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Location
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9/27/2011 6:40pm Edited Date/Time 9/27/2011 6:41pm
So, how do you force a business designed to make a profit to create a production line to make a line of new, fresh bikes, maybe...
So, how do you force a business designed to make a profit to create a production line to make a line of new, fresh bikes, maybe 2,000 units world wide, fresher than the Yamaha and cheaper than both the KTM and Yamaha? And in a bad economy to boot, which has nothing at all whatsoever to do with what kind of bikes they make now?

Do people really believe that instituting a rule that purportedly is going to benefit maybe 50 guys who want to be pro but are not good enough to get support is going to the change the OEM production decision? And do it when some of those companies have already looked at the far larger, unrestricted non-pro market and stopped making that particular type of bike? Even though, as some contend, people were clamoring for two strokes throughout the entire period?

I love two strokes. I have owned them and will own them. Hope they keep making them and the others who stopped start making them again

Some of you are falling into the trap of thinking that if you like something or it matters a lot to you, most people feel the same way. Some of your assumptions about the prevailing mood of the fan base are pure speculation.
FTE, Hmmm, You state you're a 2 stroke fan. But EVERY reply by you to a 2 stroke post has been to shoot down the respective...
FTE,

Hmmm, You state you're a 2 stroke fan. But EVERY reply by you to a 2 stroke post has been to shoot down the respective argument. As smart as you are, I don't get where you are coming from.

If your position is indeed true, help guide the misguided efforts by myself and many others rather than shoot holes into the current efforts.

Thanks!
Liking two strokes means I have to believe there's a conspiracy and deny that most consumers willingly and joyfully bought four strokes and abandoned two strokes...
Liking two strokes means I have to believe there's a conspiracy and deny that most consumers willingly and joyfully bought four strokes and abandoned two strokes when all companies were still making them?

I'm rational. I know what it costs businesses to make significant production changes, in any economy let alone this one. If people can't come to grips with that dynamic, and stick to resorting to some of the crazy ideas that get vetted in these and the sheer lack of focus on what solution people actually want, then you are the biggest part of the problem whether you like two strokes or not.
FTE,

I am in a business that brought back a product demanded by the public.

We were and are responsive to VOC.

My point is why are so many convinced that the Jap OEMsare unwilling to resond to current VOC?

I believe it is because the replies are based on speculation rather than real world VOC.

I don't think I ever said or implied that you "Liking two strokes means I have to believe there's a conspiracy and deny that most consumers willingly and joyfully bought four strokes and abandoned two strokes when all companies were still making them? "

I deal in a business that daily determines what production levels are required to meet demand.
FreshTopEnd
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Location
Sacramento, CA, USA
9/27/2011 7:21pm
Then it's mystifying why you refuse to accept that the market will be dictated by what current consumers choose to buy and not buy on the showroom floors now.
EastFlorida
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2334
Joined
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Location
Merritt Island, FL, USA
9/27/2011 7:24pm Edited Date/Time 9/27/2011 7:25pm
Then it's mystifying why you refuse to accept that the market will be dictated by what current consumers choose to buy and not buy on the...
Then it's mystifying why you refuse to accept that the market will be dictated by what current consumers choose to buy and not buy on the showroom floors now.
I guess we're on a different page... We'll converse a little later when the issues are more clear....
BobbyM
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Location
USA
9/27/2011 7:36pm
also, let me point out 1 thing.... and this will be dismissed also.

MX is still the cheapest form of motorsport you can be in.
prove it

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