SOLVED: Bleeding front brake from hell.

Lasse
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DK
Edited Date/Time 1/19/2025 12:33pm

Hi guys, I am at my wits end.


I’ve tried bleeding the front brake of my KX125. I can get resistance in the lever just as the pads are touching the disc, but no more. 

Here is a list of what I have tried:

Rebuilt master

New master 

Another brake line 

Rebuilt caliper with new seals and pistons

I have a vacuum bleeder. Here I can see bubbles when bleeding. When closing the bled screw the bubbles stop.

When I pump by hand I get no bubbles. 

What can I try next? I haven’t observed any external leakages, but my next thought is a leak in the caliper.

EDIT:

Solved: 

So tonight I made a test setup with a handlebar in a vice and the brakeline and caliper horizontal.


Fitted new, much shorter banjos 5-6 threads enhanced. Backbled with a much larger volume of fluid not caring if there were any spills at the master. 

I know instantly had pressure and a firm feel, no air.

 

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40acres
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12/20/2024 7:14am

You have to be careful with vaccum bleeders as they at times will produce bubbles, but that is from a bad seal at the zerk on your bleed hose and not within the actual system. They work great imo, but just be mindful the bubbles can be deceiving. I suspect there is still some air trapped somewhere in the master/caliper. Perhaps try some tapping/suspending the caliper above the master for a few hours. Then keep working it. No other reason you wouldn't be able to build adequate pressure otherwise. 

2
Lasse
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12/20/2024 7:21am
40acres wrote:
You have to be careful with vaccum bleeders as they at times will produce bubbles, but that is from a bad seal at the zerk on...

You have to be careful with vaccum bleeders as they at times will produce bubbles, but that is from a bad seal at the zerk on your bleed hose and not within the actual system. They work great imo, but just be mindful the bubbles can be deceiving. I suspect there is still some air trapped somewhere in the master/caliper. Perhaps try some tapping/suspending the caliper above the master for a few hours. Then keep working it. No other reason you wouldn't be able to build adequate pressure otherwise. 

I tried suspending the caliper prior to rebuilding the caliper, but I will try it again.

40acres
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12/20/2024 1:58pm

Like I said, try some tapping on the caliper and master. Screwdriver handle should be plenty. Hopefully that helps to uncork any residual air trapped inside either. 

1
Lasse
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12/20/2024 10:10pm

I have determined that both pistons are leaking. 

Piston and seals (new) are all balls, which might explain it.

The Shop

Lasse
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12/21/2024 12:18pm

New set of seals. No leakage now, but I can visibly see the outer seal being extruded as I apply pressure.

Seems like the clearance between piston and seal is too big.

Lasse
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12/21/2024 1:20pm

OEM Pistons are 0.1 mm larger than All Balls pistons. Tried going back to OEM pistons, problem persists.

Lasse
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12/21/2024 1:58pm
IMG 2740 0.jpeg?VersionId=pX4byJ24B bldit KuOh3Fh43UY
40acres
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12/21/2024 7:11pm

OEM pistons and seals?

PNWMXer
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12/21/2024 7:23pm

Did you bench bleed the master before attaching the line?

1
Lasse
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12/21/2024 10:26pm

OEM seals, all balls piston. 

I did not bench bleed the master. What is that?

40acres
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12/22/2024 10:03am

What is wrong with your current OE pistons? .10 mm in overall diameter should make that much a difference 

Lasse
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12/22/2024 1:53pm

The OE pistons are chipped and uneven at the ends, so if pressed all the way in the outer seal is not tight. They are fine if not fully seated. 

Tried switching around again tonight, to no avail. 

Bought extra pistons to eliminate any courses. They are however scrap.

Bought a Chinese knock off caliper for 40 USD to test. 

Lasse
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1/11/2025 12:01pm

I have now replaced all the parts in the system with new parts besides the disc and I am still unable to build pressure.

I have back bled, vacuum pumped and done the ol pump and loosen. It seems like the pistons pull too far back when released. New banjos, new gaskets.

I can empty the resovoir with 6-7 pumps, suggesting that I am able to displace fluid from the master to the bleed screw. At least. 
 

PNWMXer
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1/11/2025 8:41pm
Lasse wrote:

OEM seals, all balls piston. 

I did not bench bleed the master. What is that?

It’s where you bleed the master into itself before attaching it to the rest of the system, typically with a fitting that attaches where the brake line would, with a short hose that runs back into the reservoir. This allows you to bleed all air out of the master cylinder assembly prior to trying to bleed the rest of the system. On many systems, if this step is skipped it will be difficult or impossible to get the system bled.


Two other tricks are:

-using a pressure bleeder (you can make one using a small garden sprayer and an adapter from a spare master cylinder cap)


-bleeding as best you can, then tightening the bleeder valve and zip-tying the brake lever in the “brake on” position against the bars overnight. Prior to letting it sit, use a screwdriver handle or soft hammer to tap all the way from the caliper, along the line, to the master cylinder to free stuck bubbles. This trick has worked more than once when I did everything else and couldn’t get firm brakes.

1
PC
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1/12/2025 8:23am

Get a syringe and reverse bleed.  Then once you've got a solid bleed on it you can gravity bleed it from then on out.

2
Lasse
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1/12/2025 12:25pm
Lasse wrote:

OEM seals, all balls piston. 

I did not bench bleed the master. What is that?

PNWMXer wrote:
It’s where you bleed the master into itself before attaching it to the rest of the system, typically with a fitting that attaches where the brake...

It’s where you bleed the master into itself before attaching it to the rest of the system, typically with a fitting that attaches where the brake line would, with a short hose that runs back into the reservoir. This allows you to bleed all air out of the master cylinder assembly prior to trying to bleed the rest of the system. On many systems, if this step is skipped it will be difficult or impossible to get the system bled.


Two other tricks are:

-using a pressure bleeder (you can make one using a small garden sprayer and an adapter from a spare master cylinder cap)


-bleeding as best you can, then tightening the bleeder valve and zip-tying the brake lever in the “brake on” position against the bars overnight. Prior to letting it sit, use a screwdriver handle or soft hammer to tap all the way from the caliper, along the line, to the master cylinder to free stuck bubbles. This trick has worked more than once when I did everything else and couldn’t get firm brakes.

Thanks for the wholesome reply. While I haven’t dedicated as hose directly on the MC, I’m sure there is no air in the master. When I have back led it I have seen clear bubbles from the MC. Now no bubbles there. 

An addition, it LOOKS like the piston side is bending the rotor towards the fixed side. The seals for the slide pins have a fair amount of cushion too. Omitting all that and putting the caliper in a vice with a file between the pads doesn’t really change a lot. 

1/13/2025 2:17am

may i suggest going back to the original banjos? i had a similar issue, i've had my 2003 yz 125 from new and decided to put some braided hoses and new ti bajos and bleed nipples, i spent way to many hours pulling my hair out, decided to go backwards ie put in the original nipples, nothing, then went back to the oem banjos, instant pressure, im now back to a excellent brake how it always was, hope you solve your issue buddy 

2
Falcon
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Menifee, CA US
1/16/2025 7:19am
PC wrote:

Get a syringe and reverse bleed.  Then once you've got a solid bleed on it you can gravity bleed it from then on out.

I was going to say this. Once you have filled the system, seal up the master cylinder and gently pull on the syringe to "pump" fluid back and forth. You can see any trapped air bubbles that way. 

If you can figure out a way to connect at the master cylinder banjo bolt, do the MTB thing and try to get two syringes; one at the top and one at the bottom. You can then force fluid out of a full syringe at bottom into the mostly empty one at top. This should get you at least 90% there. 

Splat03
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Kiowa, CO US
Fantasy
1/17/2025 9:34am

Another dumb idea but it hasn’t directly been addressed in the thread. Tighten your fittings at your master cylinder and your banjo bolt just a little more. My buddy had a decent get off last year and broke the mount to his master cylinder necessitating a new MC. We bled and bled that for way longer than we care to admit but couldn’t get it to hold pressure. We eventually put a wrench on both fittings and went about 1/8 turn tighter than the torque specs for both fittings and the brake system then started to hold pressure. 

Lasse
Posts
613
Joined
11/5/2015
Location
DK
1/19/2025 12:32pm

Solved: 

So tonight I made a test setup with a handlebar in a vice and the brakeline and caliper horizontal.


Fitted new, much shorter banjos 5-6 threads enhanced. Backbled with a much larger volume of fluid not caring if there were any spills at the master. 

I know instantly had pressure and a firm feel, no air.

5
1/20/2025 4:51am

glad you solved it buddy, id zip tie brake blade to the bars now for 24 hours as said above, it helps remove any air from the separator/divider at the bottom of the master

Rider 5280
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1/20/2025 10:00am Edited Date/Time 1/20/2025 8:42pm

Congrats!

I hate bleeding brakes, especially Brembos.

I now use these KTM tools RELIGIOUSLY as my "continuous bleeding approach" (same concept as zip-tie, just easier to use & see wen you lose in dirt) - and they are amazing at keeping your bike put on an incline/idling, too. Bought one or every bike!

https://www.motosport.com/search?textsearch=KTM%20Powerparts%20brake%20strap

1000028916

 

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