The Case for Nukes

volcati
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Edited Date/Time 1/26/2012 1:07pm
The case for nukes
A solution to the energy crisis has been under our nose for decades.


(Fortune Magazine) -- When Goldman Sachs analysts suggested last week that oil could hit $200 a barrel, I expected someone somewhere to express horror at the possibility. But the reaction was a tiny, resignation-filled sigh. Relentless fuel-price increases have so exhausted consumers that we don't have the energy to be outraged anymore. So we feel helpless as we watch oil sprint past the $130 mark on its way to price-prohibitive territory and wonder whether it's too late to bring back the horse and buggy. Our sense of helplessness is an illusion: There are things we can do. We got ourselves into this mess, mostly through multiple administrations of politically comfortable but shortsighted decision-making. And inasmuch as we're willing to stand a little political discomfort, we can get ourselves out.

One uncomfortable way to mitigate the energy crisis has been under our nose since the 1950s: nuclear energy. It's one of the cleanest and most efficient alternatives to coal- and natural-gas-based electricity production, and it's responsible for less than 20% of domestic electricity production. The most recent numbers (2006) indicate that coal-based production was the largest contributor, at 48%. Increasingly expensive petroleum and natural gas account for 22%. All three are replaceable.

It may not be fashionable to suggest that the French know what they're doing with regard to anything but wine and cheese, but spend some time in Provence and note the remarkably clean air and cheap electricity, 75% of which is produced by nuclear power plants. Most of the plants were built after the 1970s oil shocks that sent France's economy into a tailspin because it was almost completely dependent on foreign oil, as we are now. Nuclear energy doesn't produce the air pollution that burning coal does, and even waste products are recyclable, though it hasn't been done thanks to an also potentially shortsighted Carter-era decision to ban it over fears of nuclear terrorism.

Although the ban has been reversed, the fears still linger. But irrational fear of improbable safety breaches is responsible for most opposition to nuclear power in this country. The unlikely culprit? Pop culture. We've seen "The China Syndrome," and we worry that nuclear-reactor employees may be bumbling Homer Simpsons, capable of accidentally pushing the red button. Chernobyl and Three Mile Island - the former of which killed 36 people and the latter of which killed none - have become so outsized in the American imagination that our perception of actual risk has been completely distorted. We're willing to tolerate the health risks and environmental repercussions of other fuels to avoid the infinitesimally small and comically improbable possibility of a catastrophic accident that resembles something out of a 1979 Jane Fonda movie, the likes of which have never happened in the history of nuclear power.

We also cognitively associate nuclear power with bombmaking and having seen what atomic radiation can do to people; we think of it as being exponentially worse than exposure to fire, poisonous gases, and pollution - the likely repercussions of large-scale accidents at conventional power plants. As with anything that's exotic, potentially dangerous, and little understood, it becomes more frightening in mythology. Silhouettes of cooling towers on the horizon seem sinister because we've seen the imagery from Chernobyl - an accident that was exacerbated because it was left burning for five days, which would never happen now.

Are there downsides? Yes. Nuclear waste has to be stored somewhere, and consistent with human behavior since the beginning of time, no one wants it in his own backyard. But at some point we have to weigh the necessity of energy independence against the cost of uncomfortable fixes like nuclear energy. As oil climbs to the point where no one can afford it and we're forced to stop buying it- what Goldman analysts euphemistically call "demand destruction," as if it were intentional- we may find that we have no choice. We can't afford to be afraid anymore
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Frogman
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5/29/2008 1:45pm Edited Date/Time 5/29/2008 1:47pm
I have always thought the best use of the space shuttle would be dropping nuclear waste off on the moon. If we are going to piss away that kind of money on the space program...we should make it useful.
volcati
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5/29/2008 1:48pm
Frogman wrote:
I have always thought the best use of the space shuttle would be dropping nuclear waste off on the moon. If we are going to piss...
I have always thought the best use of the space shuttle would be dropping nuclear waste off on the moon. If we are going to piss away that kind of money on the space program...we should make it useful.
They should build a silo on it so a remote could fly into and be locked in. Of course, the cost would be out of this world.
Frogman
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5/29/2008 1:52pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 7:07pm
The construction/maintenance cost of those undeground storage facilities in Nevada/wherever...not to mention the legal costs associated with getting new ones in someone's backyard might offset it a bit.

We ought to just launch the stuff into the sun...probably the cheapest and most thorough solution of all.
xewbx
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5/29/2008 2:50pm
I'm a proponent of nuke power, always have been. However...............I just have to point out that nobody can say with any surety exactly how many casualties there were as a result of cheronobyl.

For one thing............the Soviet Union was not well known for it's forthrightness. For another, nobody has ever attempted to figure out the military casualties. Finally, nobody knows exactly what the casualty count would have been..............without the extraordinary measures taken by the military..........which would almost certainly not have happened in the West. Quite frankly, the Soviet Unions decision to order conscripts in to build the sarcophagus and contain the reactor, probably did kill a lot of soldiers, but it probably saved 25 times there number in civilian casualties. There is really no way that largely unprotected or poorly protected individuals could have remained there that long without some severe health effects. There were literally soldiers working at ground zero in t-shirts.

I mean seriously.......the fact that the Soviets simply left literally divisions of military equipment rotting in the motorpools because it was so severly contaminated ought to be a tip off that maybe.........the official casualty numbers were just a little under reported.

The Shop

BMSOB
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5/29/2008 2:54pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 7:07pm
The Chernoble reactor was a cheap & bad design. The Russians cut costs & corners. Being from the electrical energy industry, nuclear power is the way to go. Can't keep burning fossil fuels forever & coal has it's own issues healthwise.
xewbx
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5/29/2008 3:02pm
BMSOB wrote:
The Chernoble reactor was a cheap & bad design. The Russians cut costs & corners. Being from the electrical energy industry, nuclear power is the way...
The Chernoble reactor was a cheap & bad design. The Russians cut costs & corners. Being from the electrical energy industry, nuclear power is the way to go. Can't keep burning fossil fuels forever & coal has it's own issues healthwise.
Oh absolutely correct, no doubt about it. It was 30 years out of date then. Add to that a lack of automated systems and poor training (the soviets really did have "homer simpsons").

I'm just pointing out..........writing an article to justify nuke power and saying that there were only 36 casualties of Chernobyl is misleading.

Regardless......I'm a strong proponent of nuke power.

I wonder.......just how big our store of nuke material is..............
SteveS
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5/29/2008 3:17pm
Chernobyl (and to a lesser degree) Three Mile Island were unfortunate events which sealed the doom of nukes. We have a nuke in central Missouri that has ticked along with a perfect record. The second unit never got built there because of the bad press nukes got.

The nuclear waste does have to be dealt with somehow, and that is an issue, but it was the accidents which killed nuke power. Nuke power is something that would have made us a lot better off nowadays had we kept developing and using it.
volcati
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5/29/2008 3:55pm
I saw an HBO documentary on Chernobyl that was made 2 years back. I'd have to say it was like watching a horrible car wreck. There are still kids being born with some fucked up deformities. Then you have peasants who don't know better who live with the radiation and just end up dying. Horrible cycle there.

I've been pro nuclear my whole life, due the fact my dad worked for the NRC, he retired early over their bullshit in being pressured to shut down plants--he can convince the biggest liberal why we need to revert. The greenies should be demanding nuke power...we all should be. But hypocrites who bitch just want to go back to the cave man days.

Ehh..there's soo much shit we could do with nuke power ( one being mass transportation) that was stunted by Carter, a nuke guy to begin with, and the hard-core greenies who rush to judge.
Spinner
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5/29/2008 4:03pm
Xewb said pretty much what I was thinking. Nuke power, done right and safely, is a great source for energy. We should use the shit out of it.

As for the Chernobyl stuff, here's a long, detailed piece from Wiki -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

volcati
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5/29/2008 4:09pm
The problem is...we've really declined the evolution and safety due to politics. Soon than later we'll need to revert. I really think if Bush had done this 2 years back he could of salvage his reputation for the future.
Mr_ Money
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5/29/2008 4:13pm
Far more people have been killed in coal and oil production, If you only look at US nuke plants it looks totally safe by a huge margin.

If the government had a brain we would be going full tilt building nuke plants


txmxer
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5/29/2008 4:36pm
volcati wrote:
I saw an HBO documentary on Chernobyl that was made 2 years back. I'd have to say it was like watching a horrible car wreck. There...
I saw an HBO documentary on Chernobyl that was made 2 years back. I'd have to say it was like watching a horrible car wreck. There are still kids being born with some fucked up deformities. Then you have peasants who don't know better who live with the radiation and just end up dying. Horrible cycle there.

I've been pro nuclear my whole life, due the fact my dad worked for the NRC, he retired early over their bullshit in being pressured to shut down plants--he can convince the biggest liberal why we need to revert. The greenies should be demanding nuke power...we all should be. But hypocrites who bitch just want to go back to the cave man days.

Ehh..there's soo much shit we could do with nuke power ( one being mass transportation) that was stunted by Carter, a nuke guy to begin with, and the hard-core greenies who rush to judge.
I saw a documentary about how the radiation made this lizard grow really big. Nearly destroyed NYC. Not that that is much of a loss...
mxmiken
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5/29/2008 5:17pm
Did you hear about the guy that glen beck was talking about who forecasts future events..the guy has like a very high percentage of being right on..he said we are going solar in the next 5 to 10 years..the solar panel systems are improving double fold every year..sounds good to me
mxmiken
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5/29/2008 5:18pm
and supposedly,al gore has invested into this company..GO SOLAR
volcati
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5/29/2008 8:05pm
mxmiken wrote:
Did you hear about the guy that glen beck was talking about who forecasts future events..the guy has like a very high percentage of being right...
Did you hear about the guy that glen beck was talking about who forecasts future events..the guy has like a very high percentage of being right on..he said we are going solar in the next 5 to 10 years..the solar panel systems are improving double fold every year..sounds good to me
They've screaming that since the 70's fuel crisis.
txmxer
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5/29/2008 9:14pm
well...if you take a look at the available solar energy, then consider the recoverable amount, you will realize that it's simply not possible.

Charts exist which show how much solar energy hits every square foot of the planet (on average) in watts/sq meter. This tells the whole story. There's simply not enough energy to replace our existing gluttony. And when you consider how much is recoverable, you realize that it won't solve the world's problems.

But, we can use it to offset our need for energy.

The problem to date is that it takes more energy or $ to build a solar panel than it pays back.

The energy solution lies in atoms. The amount of energy available in a bond is where it's at IMO. It's just how do you split them suckers w/o all the nasty residue and then how do you capture that energy. Right now, we use heat. It's a lazy way to capture energy and it's very inefficient. Some bright minds will hopefully work out some of these issues.
5/29/2008 9:34pm
Also in addition to cheap energy the small accidents and exposures will also give us new super heros to aid in the war on terror. Its a win win situation.
mxmiken
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5/30/2008 10:32am
txmxer wrote:
well...if you take a look at the available solar energy, then consider the recoverable amount, you will realize that it's simply not possible. Charts exist which...
well...if you take a look at the available solar energy, then consider the recoverable amount, you will realize that it's simply not possible.

Charts exist which show how much solar energy hits every square foot of the planet (on average) in watts/sq meter. This tells the whole story. There's simply not enough energy to replace our existing gluttony. And when you consider how much is recoverable, you realize that it won't solve the world's problems.

But, we can use it to offset our need for energy.

The problem to date is that it takes more energy or $ to build a solar panel than it pays back.

The energy solution lies in atoms. The amount of energy available in a bond is where it's at IMO. It's just how do you split them suckers w/o all the nasty residue and then how do you capture that energy. Right now, we use heat. It's a lazy way to capture energy and it's very inefficient. Some bright minds will hopefully work out some of these issues.
new solar stuff is coming out every year..improving by double each year..it was on the glen beck show..out with the old and in with the new
volcati
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5/30/2008 10:59am
jtiger12 wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvert_Cliffs_Nuclear_Power_Plant

they filed last year, and won't start construction until 2009 (hopefully).
My dad sent me this message when I gave him the link.

Yes, the whole article was good. But, CEO Crane does not manage or own a
nuclear facility! His statements are a little ambiguous for a pro-nuker!
The Advanced BWR's his company referenced are already approved for building
and Japan has built one.


jtiger12
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5/30/2008 11:03am Edited Date/Time 5/30/2008 11:08am
hmm.. maybe you sent a different link? Constellation owns the reactor facility 100%. Mayo Shattuck is the CEO of CEG.. I almost got a job there earlier this year, so I was researching the company pretty heavily.

they're going to build it, with help from EDF, as long as they get final approval.. here is an interesting quote, from wiki:

The position of the former president of EDF


According to François Roussely the former president of EDF, it is not possible to reconcile low prices and competition in electricity. At any rate where countries privatized electricity, it was rapidly followed by an increase in prices and a certain insecurity about energy, notably owing to speculation on electricity (e.g. Enron).


see: http://www.constellation.com/portal/site/constellation/menuitem.0275303…
WhKnuckle
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5/30/2008 11:34am
I've always thought nuclear made a huge amount of sense. But consider this - right now, we could build superb electric cars that were designed for commuting; but it makes very little sense to build a car that you have to charge up by burning coal or natural gas to create electricity, and you wind up losing about 30% of the electrical power before you get it to the plug that your car is plugged into. But with nuclear, it all changes; make power with a nuke plant, charge up your car, drive to work and back, and charge it up again. Not a drop of oil in the whole process.

That's a long-term solution, but a do-able one.

One thought about waste - Nuclear power plants should be designed with a service life, and at the end of that service life they should be designed to store their own waste on site - use the same containment building that the fuel was used inside of, in the first place. The fuel is delivered to the site and it never leaves after that.
Racer92
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5/30/2008 11:38am
Sam,, you guys dont remember that article I posted on cold fission and battery cells?
Racer92
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5/30/2008 11:39am
txmxer wrote:
I saw a documentary about how the radiation made this lizard grow really big. Nearly destroyed NYC. Not that that is much of a loss...
That is what they *wanted* you to know. The reality is that they grew something else, and it wasnt a lizard......

WhKnuckle
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5/30/2008 11:41am
Racer92 wrote:
Sam,, you guys dont remember that article I posted on cold fission and battery cells?
No - I haven't been following things much, just jumping in every now and then. What was it?
volcati
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5/30/2008 11:42am
jtiger12 wrote:
hmm.. maybe you sent a different link? Constellation owns the reactor facility 100%. Mayo Shattuck is the CEO of CEG.. I almost got a job there...
hmm.. maybe you sent a different link? Constellation owns the reactor facility 100%. Mayo Shattuck is the CEO of CEG.. I almost got a job there earlier this year, so I was researching the company pretty heavily.

they're going to build it, with help from EDF, as long as they get final approval.. here is an interesting quote, from wiki:

The position of the former president of EDF


According to François Roussely the former president of EDF, it is not possible to reconcile low prices and competition in electricity. At any rate where countries privatized electricity, it was rapidly followed by an increase in prices and a certain insecurity about energy, notably owing to speculation on electricity (e.g. Enron).


see: http://www.constellation.com/portal/site/constellation/menuitem.0275303…
Yeah...I forget the context he sent that to me in? You could be right. I sent him the link and he came back with that reply. He's out of the industry (retired) but still has a lot of friends in it.

I'm just always looking for stock tips from that sector from him. lol
Frogman
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5/30/2008 11:51am
Also in addition to cheap energy the small accidents and exposures will also give us new super heros to aid in the war on terror. Its...
Also in addition to cheap energy the small accidents and exposures will also give us new super heros to aid in the war on terror. Its a win win situation.
I keep hoping each new spider bite is "the one."
Racer92
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5/30/2008 12:02pm
Racer92 wrote:
Sam,, you guys dont remember that article I posted on cold fission and battery cells?
WhKnuckle wrote:
No - I haven't been following things much, just jumping in every now and then. What was it?

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