Simulation hypothesis ...

lestat
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Is it science or a new type of creator myth ? To me , on one hand it seems like a new twist on an old theme ( creator) ....but on the other hand it does seem to have a logical simplicity to it that intrigues me ( Occam's razor) . Also recently watched a panel discussion hosted by Neil Degrasse Tyson (can't find it at the moment) with some mathematicians , philosophers , physicists etc , and the discussion centered around the similarities found in quantum theory and computer code , particularily self correcting codes in quantum theory . Freaked me out a bit they did ...

Anybody else dun any thunking on this ?

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/11/simulated-world-elon…
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TXDirt
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10/11/2016 5:15pm
Haven't read your link yet but I will watch and read pretty much anything related to the planets, space, time, black holes etc. such fascinating stuff. Just in our own Milky Way they estimate 100 billion stars. And they estimate there are more then 100 billion galaxies. And that's just an eatimate based on what we can see and guess. Really mind blowing stuff.

In philosophy we are asked how do we know that we aren't a butterfly just having a dream? Are we even real? What is real?

Awesome stuff!!
rongi#401
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10/11/2016 6:19pm
pondered on it. in a world that makes zero sense, it makes sense. if you take your blinders off. what is this that were all experiencing...? its odd
Tim507
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10/11/2016 7:10pm
If we are a simulation is damn goodWoohoo
lestat
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10/12/2016 12:03am
rongi#401 wrote:
pondered on it. in a world that makes zero sense, it makes sense. if you take your blinders off. what is this that were all experiencing...
pondered on it. in a world that makes zero sense, it makes sense. if you take your blinders off. what is this that were all experiencing...? its odd
"Nearly every process in the universe can be reduced to interactions between particles that produce binary answers: yes or no, here or there, up or down. That means nature, at its most fundamental level, is simply the flipping of binary digits or bits, just like a computer."

From here .... http://www.33rdsquare.com/2012/10/quantum-mechanics-point-to-reality-as…

Watch , (audio only) , the vid at the end of the article . James Gates Jr is freakin me out man !

The Shop

FIREfish148
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10/12/2016 12:54am
This shits deeeeeeep. Deep as it gets right? Elon musk is a genius once again for taking a theory from a movie and using it to raise money lol.
We weren't designed to figure it out IMO.
motoxracer723
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10/12/2016 6:38am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2016 6:46am
All very possible. We're semi-intelligent primates that just recently stopped throwing our poop at each other (although if you think about it, we still do this to each other, just in different ways).

For anyone to rule out the simulation theory, they have their head up their ass.

Like TXDirt said - the universe is such a large place, even with the viewpoint of our own galaxy it's unbelievably large. This is why I think our communal goal for humanity should be to spread out as quickly and as far as possible into space. It's the real frontier.

That is, unless we have a 'Truman show' like point running into the wall of our dome...

Back to the simulation idea - take into consideration the rate at which our tech/electronics and Virtual Reality is progressing. You're telling me that in 50 years we wouldn't OURSELVES be able to plug someone into a chair and have them live a perfect life- interacting with people, building relationships, accomplishing goals, etc and couldn't tell the difference? Barring major techno-strife, we're on that track way before 50 years IMO
So take a civilization that's even 1% more advanced than us and they would have capabilities to easily do this.

I'm all over the place with this post, but consider this point. There have been theories that (one) of the reasons we don't hear from or see extraterrestrials out in the cosmos is that, by the time a civilization reaches the point of super computers and ultra-real simulations, they basically just plug in 'Matrix-like' (without the machine overlord element) and live inside this perfect world they've created. Fuck boring space when you can have all the fun stuff inside your simulation.

Now go back to worrying about taxes, the president, and money... the things that 'REALLY' matter
JW381
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10/12/2016 7:57am
This thread is far out
akillerwombat
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10/12/2016 8:20am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2016 8:21am
It's a crazy fun thing to think about but I feel like it's another one of those 50-50 situations in theory because it can't be disproved (at the moment) but in scientific practice the scales are tipped much further for reality is exactly what it is. IE: Could we be in a simulations, maybe. Is there a God, maybe. Can we prove either... not really. Can we disprove either... not 100%, but we have a lot more evidence to suggest that they don't exist than they do.

That said – I'd hope if it were a simulation someone would give me an upgrade and help make me the dirt bike rider I always wished I was.
10/12/2016 8:34am
If we are living in a simulation:
If you figure it out, do you win or lose?
10/12/2016 8:52am
I find myself persuaded by the Simulation Argument, and also the Multiverse Theory.

Believing that one or both of those scenarios is likely true, I have a hard time reconciling my beliefs with how I live my life day-to-day. In other words, if you know that you're just a simulation, how should that affect your daily decision making?
kzizok
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10/12/2016 9:01am
All very possible. We're semi-intelligent primates that just recently stopped throwing our poop at each other (although if you think about it, we still do this...
All very possible. We're semi-intelligent primates that just recently stopped throwing our poop at each other (although if you think about it, we still do this to each other, just in different ways).

For anyone to rule out the simulation theory, they have their head up their ass.

Like TXDirt said - the universe is such a large place, even with the viewpoint of our own galaxy it's unbelievably large. This is why I think our communal goal for humanity should be to spread out as quickly and as far as possible into space. It's the real frontier.

That is, unless we have a 'Truman show' like point running into the wall of our dome...

Back to the simulation idea - take into consideration the rate at which our tech/electronics and Virtual Reality is progressing. You're telling me that in 50 years we wouldn't OURSELVES be able to plug someone into a chair and have them live a perfect life- interacting with people, building relationships, accomplishing goals, etc and couldn't tell the difference? Barring major techno-strife, we're on that track way before 50 years IMO
So take a civilization that's even 1% more advanced than us and they would have capabilities to easily do this.

I'm all over the place with this post, but consider this point. There have been theories that (one) of the reasons we don't hear from or see extraterrestrials out in the cosmos is that, by the time a civilization reaches the point of super computers and ultra-real simulations, they basically just plug in 'Matrix-like' (without the machine overlord element) and live inside this perfect world they've created. Fuck boring space when you can have all the fun stuff inside your simulation.

Now go back to worrying about taxes, the president, and money... the things that 'REALLY' matter
Simulation thinking also would be proof for the Fermi paradox, as far as reasoning for no alien life proof. Ive posted the theorem before on here but it was buried. I find it fascinating.

Fermi paradox
JAFO92
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10/12/2016 9:01am
All very possible. We're semi-intelligent primates that just recently stopped throwing our poop at each other (although if you think about it, we still do this...
All very possible. We're semi-intelligent primates that just recently stopped throwing our poop at each other (although if you think about it, we still do this to each other, just in different ways).

For anyone to rule out the simulation theory, they have their head up their ass.

Like TXDirt said - the universe is such a large place, even with the viewpoint of our own galaxy it's unbelievably large. This is why I think our communal goal for humanity should be to spread out as quickly and as far as possible into space. It's the real frontier.

That is, unless we have a 'Truman show' like point running into the wall of our dome...

Back to the simulation idea - take into consideration the rate at which our tech/electronics and Virtual Reality is progressing. You're telling me that in 50 years we wouldn't OURSELVES be able to plug someone into a chair and have them live a perfect life- interacting with people, building relationships, accomplishing goals, etc and couldn't tell the difference? Barring major techno-strife, we're on that track way before 50 years IMO
So take a civilization that's even 1% more advanced than us and they would have capabilities to easily do this.

I'm all over the place with this post, but consider this point. There have been theories that (one) of the reasons we don't hear from or see extraterrestrials out in the cosmos is that, by the time a civilization reaches the point of super computers and ultra-real simulations, they basically just plug in 'Matrix-like' (without the machine overlord element) and live inside this perfect world they've created. Fuck boring space when you can have all the fun stuff inside your simulation.

Now go back to worrying about taxes, the president, and money... the things that 'REALLY' matter
Spread out into space? We cant even keep from cutting each others heads off on this rock here. Our ilk needs to be quarantined. Homo Sapien needs, and will, come to a deserved and inevitable end.

Just like Carlin said; "Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake, an evolutionary cul de sac."
motosmith
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10/12/2016 9:47am
Or maybe there's a God.
Sunhouse
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10/12/2016 10:04am
I've read about the simulation hypoothesis and to me it seems too much like a modern day Descartes hypothesis. I hated Descartes in Uni and didn't really care for this either. It sounds like pseudo-science coupled with metaphysics
10/12/2016 10:48am
motosmith wrote:
Or maybe there's a God.
You mean Intelligent Design?
I guess this is where science and religion converge to postulate that we were created by a higher intelligence.
rongi#401
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10/12/2016 12:14pm
ToolMaker wrote:
If we are living in a simulation:
If you figure it out, do you win or lose?
the MIB come and pull your card
motoxracer723
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10/12/2016 2:16pm
JAFO92 wrote:
Spread out into space? We cant even keep from cutting each others heads off on this rock here. Our ilk needs to be quarantined. Homo Sapien...
Spread out into space? We cant even keep from cutting each others heads off on this rock here. Our ilk needs to be quarantined. Homo Sapien needs, and will, come to a deserved and inevitable end.

Just like Carlin said; "Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake, an evolutionary cul de sac."
While I see where you're coming from, my extremist views lead me to say - Embrace our viral nature and go forth and spread.

Simulation or not, there's a lot of real estate out there and as far as we know, it's all for the taking. Problems here on Earth with the 'neighbors'? All the more reason to hitch up the wagon and get moving to new ground.

Regarding the Fermi Paradox (awesome theories) - what we're talking about is a part of the 'great filter' that may be a reason why we don't hear from anyone. Any species that have come before us, intelligent enough to get to our point, have killed themselves off before they could spread out. Similar to our collective growing pains, we may be too smart for our own good.
I don't see it that way but I can't doubt it's a valid possibility.

kzizok
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10/12/2016 5:22pm Edited Date/Time 10/12/2016 5:26pm
^Regarding your comment on Fermi. Perhaps some filtering but I think the crux is really mathematical equations that theorize its not possible for aliens to exist and it explains why. Furthermore, it also is related to the postulation that says that time travel is not possible with mathematical proof.

Personally, its all fascinating to me. There have been references in this thread mentioning God. Absolutely, I believe in an omniscient/omnipotent God, so who am I to say how our existence is just because Im too dumb to grasp things that are proposed like God's signature in the breakout of Pi?
lestat
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10/12/2016 7:03pm Edited Date/Time 10/12/2016 7:08pm
Regarding the Fermi Paradox (awesome theories) - what we're talking about is a part of the 'great filter' that may be a reason why we don't hear from anyone. Any species that have come before us, intelligent enough to get to our point, have killed themselves off before they could spread out. Similar to our collective growing pains, we may be too smart for our own good.
I don't see it that way but I can't doubt it's a valid possibility.


If we are not a simulation , given the apparent path that I see our species being on (much like JAFO92's post) , I would say this would be the most likely scenario .

or maybe .... simulations of intelligent species (either ours or alien) are prone to crashing the simulators' computers when intelligence reaches a certain level , explaining the absence of simultaneous simulations converging . stupid gods and their shitty computers .... we were just about to level up !
motoxracer723
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10/13/2016 11:02am
kzizok wrote:
^Regarding your comment on Fermi. Perhaps some filtering but I think the crux is really mathematical equations that theorize its not possible for aliens to exist...
^Regarding your comment on Fermi. Perhaps some filtering but I think the crux is really mathematical equations that theorize its not possible for aliens to exist and it explains why. Furthermore, it also is related to the postulation that says that time travel is not possible with mathematical proof.

Personally, its all fascinating to me. There have been references in this thread mentioning God. Absolutely, I believe in an omniscient/omnipotent God, so who am I to say how our existence is just because Im too dumb to grasp things that are proposed like God's signature in the breakout of Pi?
Fermi Paradox

Read the article. It's long, but it lays it all out in a good way.
'Fermi's paradox' is in response to the Drake Equation, which takes some serious assumptions but basically says:
if we multiple all the stars (which we can guess to a good degree of certainty) x % stars with planets x % of planets that could have life x etc etc etc, then that will equal how many intelligent species there SHOULD be in the universe.
The problem is we don't actually know of any others so we really have no idea how likely they are to form. Our sample size is one.

Nothing about time travel though in this one...

Visual


kzizok
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10/13/2016 5:36pm
^^Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I've seen Fermi in relation to time travel theorists, but not the paradox itself, necessarily.
motoxracer723
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10/13/2016 8:00pm
lestat wrote:
That was a good article . I'm still betting on Great Filter #3 we are fucked . :) Seems things just got even more paradoxical...
That was a good article . I'm still betting on Great Filter #3 we are fucked . Smile

Seems things just got even more paradoxical ....

http://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/hubble-reveals-observable-univ…
Putting it in sort of perspective, it's estimated that there are more earth-like planets (small, rocky) in the universe than ALL of the grains of sand around the globe. Put that one in your pipe...


Regarding the filters - I've also read some interesting articles exIFLS Early Earth on how Earth may be 'early' in the grand planet scheme of things.

It could be that we're the first people at the party - millions of years ahead of everyone else.

Take for example the fact that we are carbon-based life, but complex life (multi cellular) requires elements that can ONLY be formed when a star goes supernova.
So in order to get to jellyfish, cattle, dinosaurs and humans, hundreds or millions of stars have to go through their complete life-cycle before we can even start to develop. Whoa

If this a giant Truman show, they definitely thought of just about everything.


JAFO92
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10/13/2016 8:07pm


10/13/2016 8:50pm Edited Date/Time 10/13/2016 8:59pm
Since we are breaking the universe down to basic 1's and 0's...then we should also be able to proportionately compare the universe as an insanely complex version of many 1010101010101010100001010101010010010100010101010100101100101010101. . .so on and so on.....that is, If the universe is truly infinitly vast. Then it is possible that a copy of yourself is doing the exact same thing you're doing right now, just a bizillion and 2000530874509283402938402938404398502938 light years away.

For instance: A gravel driveway has black, red and yellow stones. If you look for a combination of 3 of those stones touching each other you find them. If you look for the combo with 6 of them touching in a specific order you'll have to look a little longer until you find it, but its there. If you look for the combo with 12 it will take you a lot longer to find than 6...then look for 18 etc. then look for 36 and etc...look for 100 etc....

Now think of yourself as a combination of 560,000 stones. Look all over the univserse, it might take you forever ( much longer than we can possibly survive), but that combination of 560,000 stones (you) is out there and doing the exact same thing you're doing right now. Typing and reading on vital in their own world. And since the universe is infinite, there is actually an infinite number of YOU(yourself) out there doing the exact same thing you're doing right now. Infinitely Typing and infinitely reading on inifinite vital in your own infinite world(s).

Yep. Mind blown. I know....thanks for comin out, good night!
lestat
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10/13/2016 9:50pm Edited Date/Time 10/13/2016 9:52pm
Putting it in sort of perspective, it's estimated that there are more earth-like planets (small, rocky) in the universe than ALL of the grains of sand...
Putting it in sort of perspective, it's estimated that there are more earth-like planets (small, rocky) in the universe than ALL of the grains of sand around the globe. Put that one in your pipe...


Regarding the filters - I've also read some interesting articles exIFLS Early Earth on how Earth may be 'early' in the grand planet scheme of things.

It could be that we're the first people at the party - millions of years ahead of everyone else.

Take for example the fact that we are carbon-based life, but complex life (multi cellular) requires elements that can ONLY be formed when a star goes supernova.
So in order to get to jellyfish, cattle, dinosaurs and humans, hundreds or millions of stars have to go through their complete life-cycle before we can even start to develop. Whoa

If this a giant Truman show, they definitely thought of just about everything.


Regarding the filters - I've also read some interesting articles exIFLS Early Earth on how Earth may be 'early' in the grand planet scheme of things.

It could be that we're the first people at the party - millions of years ahead of everyone else



I haven't read that article yet but in general I am wary of ideas that place humans in a 'special' status . I think it is often mankind's ego that leads us down this path .

I tend to lean towards the idea of the Great Filter being ahead of us in our future .... because of mankind's past history . To me there is a clear pattern of building great civilizations and then fucking them up . We are at the point of a global civilization and we have incredibly powerful weapons and technology now , so our next fuck up could easily cause the extinction of humans .

I suppose that both could be true as well as multiple Great Filters . Maybe we are the first to get incredibly lucky to get by the first and are coming up on another one that we will not get by .

but what the hell do I know .... I just stubbed my toe on the coffee table leg for the third time this week damn it . Pinch
lestat
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10/13/2016 9:51pm
you're in good company George ....


The second interpretation of quantum theory is the many-worlds (or multiverse theory. It holds that as soon as a potential exists for any object to be in any state, the universe of that object transmutes into a series of parallel universes equal to the number of possible states in which that the object can exist, with each universe containing a unique single possible state of that object. Furthermore, there is a mechanism for interaction between these universes that somehow permits all states to be accessible in some way and for all possible states to be affected in some manner. Stephen Hawking and the late Richard Feynman are among the scientists who have expressed a preference for the many-worlds theory.
10/14/2016 4:04am
lestat wrote:
[i][b]Regarding the filters - I've also read some interesting articles exIFLS Early Earth on how Earth may be 'early' in the grand planet scheme of things...
Regarding the filters - I've also read some interesting articles exIFLS Early Earth on how Earth may be 'early' in the grand planet scheme of things.

It could be that we're the first people at the party - millions of years ahead of everyone else



I haven't read that article yet but in general I am wary of ideas that place humans in a 'special' status . I think it is often mankind's ego that leads us down this path .

I tend to lean towards the idea of the Great Filter being ahead of us in our future .... because of mankind's past history . To me there is a clear pattern of building great civilizations and then fucking them up . We are at the point of a global civilization and we have incredibly powerful weapons and technology now , so our next fuck up could easily cause the extinction of humans .

I suppose that both could be true as well as multiple Great Filters . Maybe we are the first to get incredibly lucky to get by the first and are coming up on another one that we will not get by .

but what the hell do I know .... I just stubbed my toe on the coffee table leg for the third time this week damn it . Pinch
Yes. Yes!!
lestat
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10/15/2016 12:52pm Edited Date/Time 10/15/2016 12:54pm
TripleFive wrote:
I find myself persuaded by the Simulation Argument, and also the Multiverse Theory. Believing that one or both of those scenarios is likely true, I have...
I find myself persuaded by the Simulation Argument, and also the Multiverse Theory.

Believing that one or both of those scenarios is likely true, I have a hard time reconciling my beliefs with how I live my life day-to-day. In other words, if you know that you're just a simulation, how should that affect your daily decision making?
I have been thinking about your question (as well as Toolmaker's) and came to the conclusion that for me , it doesn't matter at all . Simulation or not , nothing changes for my daily existence . I can only play the cards I am dealt , so to speak , regardless of 'who' is dealing them .

Found this article that addresses your question somewhat ....

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160901-we-might-live-in-a-computer-pro…
Krallang
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10/15/2016 1:06pm
lestat wrote:
Is it science or a new type of creator myth ? To me , on one hand it seems like a new twist on an old...
Is it science or a new type of creator myth ? To me , on one hand it seems like a new twist on an old theme ( creator) ....but on the other hand it does seem to have a logical simplicity to it that intrigues me ( Occam's razor) . Also recently watched a panel discussion hosted by Neil Degrasse Tyson (can't find it at the moment) with some mathematicians , philosophers , physicists etc , and the discussion centered around the similarities found in quantum theory and computer code , particularily self correcting codes in quantum theory . Freaked me out a bit they did ...

Anybody else dun any thunking on this ?

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/11/simulated-world-elon…
This really isn't even a hypothesis.

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