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SH
Edited Date/Time
9/15/2012 4:04pm
Until a series with AMA and FIM riders race the same series in both America and Europe and the points are tallied all this BS about who is better is just that BS. A non American racing in America has his back to the wall straight away, and because top American's don't want to race in Europe, we can never get a level idea of how they would deal with that change.
Even with the American economy being like it is the biggest money is still in America, maybe not like it was, but still it is a good place to earn a dollar if you are one of the top five guys. Europe does not pay their top five like America pay theirs and Americans are not interested in anything that is not American, so forget seeing a Villopoto, Dungey or Stewart doing the GPs.
What the whole Roczen affair has taught me is that the fastest MX2 rider in the World, and he clearly showed that in the 2010 and 2011 MXoN, beating all the top MX2 riders and a bunch of the leading MX1 and Open riders found it tough racing a series that suits the American riders.
No disrespect to Baggett, Barcia and Tomac, because clearly those guys are the fastest three 250cc riders in America, no matter who the World sent, but they can not lay claim to being the fastest MX2 riders in the World and there is no way of finding out if they are or not.
It doesn't matter who comes up against Herlings in Lommel, they ain''t going to beat him. His advantage in sand is even greater than the advantage the American riders have in America. he could crash and still pass nearly the whole field, MXoN or GP. Herling might just be the greatest sand rider we have ever seen, he is that good. Put him in the AMA series and he might finish 6th. Put an AMA rider up against him in sand and he will make them look slow.
So all the bragging about who is best can not be resolved by anything that has occured for non American riders racing in America and until we have a series with all the riders racing eachother, in different countries, then nobody knows who the best is.
We can guess that Villopoto is the fastest rider in the World (he gets my vote), but again it is just a guess.
Geoff
Even with the American economy being like it is the biggest money is still in America, maybe not like it was, but still it is a good place to earn a dollar if you are one of the top five guys. Europe does not pay their top five like America pay theirs and Americans are not interested in anything that is not American, so forget seeing a Villopoto, Dungey or Stewart doing the GPs.
What the whole Roczen affair has taught me is that the fastest MX2 rider in the World, and he clearly showed that in the 2010 and 2011 MXoN, beating all the top MX2 riders and a bunch of the leading MX1 and Open riders found it tough racing a series that suits the American riders.
No disrespect to Baggett, Barcia and Tomac, because clearly those guys are the fastest three 250cc riders in America, no matter who the World sent, but they can not lay claim to being the fastest MX2 riders in the World and there is no way of finding out if they are or not.
It doesn't matter who comes up against Herlings in Lommel, they ain''t going to beat him. His advantage in sand is even greater than the advantage the American riders have in America. he could crash and still pass nearly the whole field, MXoN or GP. Herling might just be the greatest sand rider we have ever seen, he is that good. Put him in the AMA series and he might finish 6th. Put an AMA rider up against him in sand and he will make them look slow.
So all the bragging about who is best can not be resolved by anything that has occured for non American riders racing in America and until we have a series with all the riders racing eachother, in different countries, then nobody knows who the best is.
We can guess that Villopoto is the fastest rider in the World (he gets my vote), but again it is just a guess.
Geoff
The Shop
Bagget was certainly the best 250 rider in America this year, so it will be intriguing to see how he fares in Belgium in a few weeks.
"It doesn't matter who comes up against Herlings in Lommel, they ain''t going to beat him.(...) he could crash and still pass nearly the whole field, MXoN or GP"
I agree. But guys keep in mind, Jeffrey said it himself, he knows he's really good in the sand but he considers himself as a top 5 rider in the US, never said he could beat Baggett or anything. I think his level is about Musquin's and I guess he sees it the same way. Between Roczen and Musquin... (And for what its worth, I am not a fan at all but ok, the kid's made mistakes, now let's move on. I also do think his fans the worst fans he could have had. If you want him to be more hated that he already is when he crosses the pond, you're doing it right guys, congrats! I think he will be thankful...).
Racing a world championship is so different to the US nationals or any national series, and that is the true barometer as there is no constant home country advantage, and you have to be able to adapt to racing in different countrues and different types of track. Doing that is what makes people the best in the world.
Until they all race the World Championship (which in turn would lead to some GP races in America assuming the Americans started following the series) then you can't say who would win. But obviously they are all very close.
However on the point of Villopoto and the top American riders - I wouldn't be THAT surprised if RV he came across to race the GPs at some point. I mean obviously I would be surprised overall but I don't think it's the impossibility people make it out to be. The way he was talking with Paul in the commentary booth at the Belgium GP and the things he said... For instance he has an awareness that a top American hasn't raced the GPs in many years and that it'd be interesting to see. I do think he was genuinely considering it at the time.
The last top American (I mean top rider at the time) to even race just a single GP was Kevin Windham in 1999. I think that's right. Even with everything you said it's difficult to imagine so many years could have gone by without that happening again at least once.
I have to disagree there. To me that purely comes down to the race in question.
MX2 is a little weak right now but I remember being on the edge of my seat watching TS and JH battle round Matterley basin.
MX1.. again, it got a little predictable at the end because Tony is significantly better than everyone else, but earlier on in the year we had some cracking battles. The AMA 250s has consistently delivered more than other class in the world this year because there's so many people who can win each and every moto.
On top of that I think there's a clear difference between the way Paul Malin commentates and the way Jason and Jeff go at it. Now personally I like Paul as a commentator, I think he does an amazing job. But the fact is he has a huge amount of racing to cover all on his own. He simply has to go at an easier pace without being so dramatic otherwise he just wouldn't last. Jason and Emig make every little thing that happens sound SO damn exciting.
Sand sand sand, what, you guys think you invented it?
Great, you guys are good riding a surface that totally sucks.
Whoopie.
Bring on the freakin race.
If someone posted at the end of last year that Ken Roczen would not win an overall, win only 1 moto and lose to BB, Eli and Justin Barcia, these same guys would have imploded. Best lites rider in the world in 2011 and 4th best in 2012 I guess.....
But of course, .."JB could never beat roczen in his dreams...." and if we are using the MXoN to determine who is "best" then RD has clearly showed he is better than AC, your 6x champ......He is 3-0 vs Him in MXoN match ups, including beating him in Italy and France last year, which to my knowledge is GP home turf.....
Mad a little easier by the fact Cairoli has only been on track for about 3.5 moto's out of those 6.
Italy was home turf for Cairoli (even though no one had ever ridden the track before). He won the qualifying race, won the first moto and was then taken out on the start of the last race.
The MXdN results don't show it, but I think they're very evenly matched.
Pit Row
Until someone like you actually comes to a U.S. national and sees how fast our kids really are, this really is all BS. Let them race, enjoy the races -- make sense?
And you're right, Herlings would make anyone look slow in the sand. But aren't you worried about how the Americans will make him look in SX? Of course he will learn, as will Marvin and Kenny, but you guys have to give them time to live up to the high expectations you keep heaping on them before they even get here to race.
And give our guys a little more credit, please, rather than trying to discount their success against your best exports this year.
DC
MX Sports
So with that said, if an American falls, bike breaks, gives up his start position, etc...(covering every possible excuse) this year, you guys will be saying it wasn't "straight" up? Do the excuses go both ways?
True about Musquin winning the title, but by seasons end Roczen was clearly faster, but sure Musquin was the fastest for the complete season. End of season results in 2010 were 0-1-1-2-1-2-1-1-0-1-1-1 for Roczen. By des Nations nobody was going to race with him, not Canard, and not Musquin.
DC, until a top AMA guy races in Europe it''s BS, you can''t just compare how it is because a non American goes to an America series. Thats the point of this whole thing. It isn't an even playing field, that is why home matches for all sports are an advantage. True or false?
Herlings would get killed in Supercross, as would Cairoli or any other European. So no, I am not worried and I would hope none of them go and do it, it is a madmans sport, breaks more bones than the sport I follow.
Credit where credit is due, the AMA guys spanked the GP guys in America, no doubt about that.
Geoff
I totally agree with you, if there is one guy who deserves full credit for his riding ability and sportsman ability it''s Ryan Dungey, he is 100% class and has clearly been more consistent than Cairoli in MXoN. Thier speed is similar, but Dungey get the job done more often, as he is showing in America against the likes of Reed, Villopoto and Stewart.
Same with the top five or six MX2 riders in the World, there is nothing in it between Baggett, Herlings, Barcia, Roczen, Musquin, Searle and Tomac.
The sport is pretty rich at the moment.
Geoff
Stewart crashed out of the last race at Donington in 08 but was by far the fastest guy all weekend. Dungey was superior in 2010. Over the whole weekend Villopoto was probably the fastest rider at Saint Jean d'Angely last year. I don't have any problem saying these things, just as I don't have a problem saying I think Cairoli was the fastest guy in Italy in 09. Last year in France he made a VERY uncharacteristic mistake which robbed us all of a great spectacle.
I just think Cairoli gets a bit of a rough deal by some people on here.
Where you staying for the MXoN. I am taking two of my kids, but would love to give you that Stella I owe you.
Geoff
Geoff
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