"Boiling Fuel": Still affecting results...

TeamGreen
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Thru-out, CA US
Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 3:36pm
This "issue" has been around about as long as 4-strokes and Fuel Rules have; Yet, oddly enough, it's STILL affecting the outcome, results and championship(s).

Now, Dungey's been negatively affected by this; and, as I understand, even Metty was havin' issues.

This is a tough issue for the Fuel folks: The ultimate chemistry for makin' power doesn't always do well in Hi-Temp and demanding environments. In all fairness, some of the "thermal issues" could be model-specific/bike prep oriented.

Lesson #1: You need to insulate your tank from all that engine heat. I'd just sent Austin Howell a CV4 "Fuel Kool"; because, we all know that Freestone get's DAMN HOT and is hard on the Bikes & Riders. Testing has proven that Fuel Kool liners work...even better than the "stick-on" stuff.

Lesson #2: TEST your bikes and all the "Ingredients" in the Heat, Sand and ALL the most EVIL conditions you can muster. Get it HOT and see how the Fuel does. Ever check your gas tank's "temp" after a long moto? (Especially the Aluminum tanks!)

Lesson #3: Don't go blaming the Fuel guys if all the other teams runnin' the same fuel DIDN'T have the Same problem(s).

Lesson #4: Endurance Test and be sure you're actually carrying enough fuel to finish a National Moto. I'm pretty damn sure that we haven't seen the last-time someone runs "outta gas" towards the end of a moto.

Bruce Hendel at VP tells everyone to run a full tank, even at local races, because more fuel means better heat dissipation thru-out the fuel & fuel tank.

As for pluggin' products?

I -BOUGHT- that "Fuel Kool".
CV4...excellent stuff.
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peelout
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6/1/2011 1:12pm
global warming
6/1/2011 1:14pm
ethanol makes things worse. The FI requires much higher fuel pressure than carbs. More pressure means more heat means more vapour lock.
Ing
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6/1/2011 1:53pm
Boiling fuel is an automatic red plate disqualifier.
It sure was last week.

The Shop

motomike137
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Fenton, MI US
6/1/2011 1:56pm
Chad made RD's fuel boil when he threatened not to share the red plate.
moto314
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6/1/2011 4:06pm
Chad made RD's fuel boil when he threatened not to share the red plate.
that's funny
dehner47
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Mantua, NJ US
6/1/2011 4:12pm
question.. you stated that thes 4 strokes cause more heat and makes fuel boil faster. totally agree.. but do you think 2 strokes back in the day had the same issues but since we didnt know what we know today, we just never blamed it on "boiling" fuel??
tuz371
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6/1/2011 4:52pm
The ONLY true way to end fuel boiling is to dump four strokes. The problem didn't exist until four strokes came along. Hell you didn't even need to insulate the tank on a two stroke.


Just sayin'
newmann
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6/1/2011 6:15pm
All those extra parts in the four strokes equals more friction which equals more heat. Less power per cc means more rpms which equals more heat. A heavier machine means it has to work harder which equals more heat. Bash away, but you can't deny those facts.

First thing first, they need to make sure the tank is big enough to finish the damn race under a top rider. Second, if heat really is the culprit, design the tank so it can be properly insulated. Then add big enough radiators, oil coolers and cooling fans if necessary.
ando
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6/1/2011 6:34pm
newmann wrote:
All those extra parts in the four strokes equals more friction which equals more heat. Less power per cc means more rpms which equals more heat...
All those extra parts in the four strokes equals more friction which equals more heat. Less power per cc means more rpms which equals more heat. A heavier machine means it has to work harder which equals more heat. Bash away, but you can't deny those facts.

First thing first, they need to make sure the tank is big enough to finish the damn race under a top rider. Second, if heat really is the culprit, design the tank so it can be properly insulated. Then add big enough radiators, oil coolers and cooling fans if necessary.
Hey, maybe you've stumbled onto the real reason for global warming...
DPR250R
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6/1/2011 6:39pm
tuz371 wrote:
The ONLY true way to end fuel boiling is to dump four strokes. The problem didn't exist until four strokes came along. Hell you didn't even...
The ONLY true way to end fuel boiling is to dump four strokes. The problem didn't exist until four strokes came along. Hell you didn't even need to insulate the tank on a two stroke.


Just sayin'
Shit wasn't perfect then either.

https://youtu.be/tRrNc2v_cj4
OldYZRider1
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6/1/2011 7:02pm
I had posted this in another thread but will post here too.

Couple of things really puzzle me about RD running out of gas and "boiling fuel":

1) I've had the understanding that many of the teams are already using larger fuel tanks (stock is about 1.6 gal). How big are their tanks? The old 500cc 2 strokes had what, 2.3 gal tanks? 250cc had 2.0 gals. One would think that a four stroke with fuel injection ought to be significantly more fuel efficient with less unburned hydrocarbon in their exhaust than a two stroke, but if their burning comparable fuel amounts running the 10 min. shorter motos these days they must be putting out just as dirty (or worse) exhaust than a two stroke motor.

2) IF the fuel is actually boiling this seems to present quite a safety concern being around the motorcycle with the fuel in that state (let alone setting on top of it). Maybe their using the aluminum tanks for safety reasons to help insure it contains such a volatile mix inside in the event of a wreck? Do the mechanics wash the tank down immediately at the end of the race to cool it down before they open the tank?
ando
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6/1/2011 11:00pm
I had posted this in another thread but will post here too. Couple of things really puzzle me about RD running out of gas and "boiling...
I had posted this in another thread but will post here too.

Couple of things really puzzle me about RD running out of gas and "boiling fuel":

1) I've had the understanding that many of the teams are already using larger fuel tanks (stock is about 1.6 gal). How big are their tanks? The old 500cc 2 strokes had what, 2.3 gal tanks? 250cc had 2.0 gals. One would think that a four stroke with fuel injection ought to be significantly more fuel efficient with less unburned hydrocarbon in their exhaust than a two stroke, but if their burning comparable fuel amounts running the 10 min. shorter motos these days they must be putting out just as dirty (or worse) exhaust than a two stroke motor.

2) IF the fuel is actually boiling this seems to present quite a safety concern being around the motorcycle with the fuel in that state (let alone setting on top of it). Maybe their using the aluminum tanks for safety reasons to help insure it contains such a volatile mix inside in the event of a wreck? Do the mechanics wash the tank down immediately at the end of the race to cool it down before they open the tank?
"Boiling" fuel isn't really any more dangerous, it's just evaporating faster. Because the tank is vented, vapour doesn't build up pressure so there is no more risk than a tank of gas at "normal" temperatures.
tuz371
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6/2/2011 5:21am
tuz371 wrote:
The ONLY true way to end fuel boiling is to dump four strokes. The problem didn't exist until four strokes came along. Hell you didn't even...
The ONLY true way to end fuel boiling is to dump four strokes. The problem didn't exist until four strokes came along. Hell you didn't even need to insulate the tank on a two stroke.


Just sayin'
DPR250R wrote:
Shit wasn't perfect then either.

https://youtu.be/tRrNc2v_cj4
Sorry, but Tortelli's Honda RAN OUT OF GAS. RD's Suzuki had gas in the tank, Tortelli's Honda did not.

Tortelli's gas tank needed to hold another thimble full of fuel. RD's Suzuki apparently needs a tank with liquid nitrogen cooling.
indy_maico
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Indianapolis, IN US
6/2/2011 5:54am Edited Date/Time 6/2/2011 5:57am
On the SunTrust Grand-Am car, we used to use the gold film like CV4 uses for their tank insulation products, but after back to back testing we found this stuff from Coast Fab to be about 60% better in heat reflection properties. If you look at this web page, it is the 'USA' silver tape in the middle column.

For the test, we used 2 identical titanium heat shields that were made to shield our oil tank from radiated heat from the inconel exhaust headers. We applied both the gold stuff and the silver stuff to each of the ti heat shields, put 2 heat guns set on the highest setting about a foot away from the test piece, and measured the temp on the back side of the heat shield after 15 minutes using an iinfrared tester.

I don't remember the numbers, but I do remember that the silver stuff (USA) from Coast rejected 60% more heat than the gold stuff.

The downside is that it is very thin and wrinkles easily. To do a complex shape you may have to cut it into sections rather than try to use 1 large piece.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.

http://www.coastfab.com/images/pdf/HEAT_TAPE_WEB.pdf
GODMODE
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6/2/2011 5:58am Edited Date/Time 6/2/2011 5:59am
peelout wrote:
global warming
oh shits... It's those darn smokin 2 strokes!
enginedr
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Location
temecula, CA US
6/2/2011 6:06am
TeamGreen wrote:
This "issue" has been around about as long as 4-strokes and Fuel Rules have; Yet, oddly enough, it's STILL affecting the outcome, results and championship(s). Now...
This "issue" has been around about as long as 4-strokes and Fuel Rules have; Yet, oddly enough, it's STILL affecting the outcome, results and championship(s).

Now, Dungey's been negatively affected by this; and, as I understand, even Metty was havin' issues.

This is a tough issue for the Fuel folks: The ultimate chemistry for makin' power doesn't always do well in Hi-Temp and demanding environments. In all fairness, some of the "thermal issues" could be model-specific/bike prep oriented.

Lesson #1: You need to insulate your tank from all that engine heat. I'd just sent Austin Howell a CV4 "Fuel Kool"; because, we all know that Freestone get's DAMN HOT and is hard on the Bikes & Riders. Testing has proven that Fuel Kool liners work...even better than the "stick-on" stuff.

Lesson #2: TEST your bikes and all the "Ingredients" in the Heat, Sand and ALL the most EVIL conditions you can muster. Get it HOT and see how the Fuel does. Ever check your gas tank's "temp" after a long moto? (Especially the Aluminum tanks!)

Lesson #3: Don't go blaming the Fuel guys if all the other teams runnin' the same fuel DIDN'T have the Same problem(s).

Lesson #4: Endurance Test and be sure you're actually carrying enough fuel to finish a National Moto. I'm pretty damn sure that we haven't seen the last-time someone runs "outta gas" towards the end of a moto.

Bruce Hendel at VP tells everyone to run a full tank, even at local races, because more fuel means better heat dissipation thru-out the fuel & fuel tank.

As for pluggin' products?

I -BOUGHT- that "Fuel Kool".
CV4...excellent stuff.
lesson 5 - place your fuel in cooler , pre cool it for 2 -4 hrs before the motos , small can inside the cooler works!!! .
DPR250R
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NJ US
6/2/2011 8:36am
tuz371 wrote:
The ONLY true way to end fuel boiling is to dump four strokes. The problem didn't exist until four strokes came along. Hell you didn't even...
The ONLY true way to end fuel boiling is to dump four strokes. The problem didn't exist until four strokes came along. Hell you didn't even need to insulate the tank on a two stroke.


Just sayin'
DPR250R wrote:
Shit wasn't perfect then either.

https://youtu.be/tRrNc2v_cj4
tuz371 wrote:
Sorry, but Tortelli's Honda RAN OUT OF GAS. RD's Suzuki had gas in the tank, Tortelli's Honda did not. Tortelli's gas tank needed to hold another...
Sorry, but Tortelli's Honda RAN OUT OF GAS. RD's Suzuki had gas in the tank, Tortelli's Honda did not.

Tortelli's gas tank needed to hold another thimble full of fuel. RD's Suzuki apparently needs a tank with liquid nitrogen cooling.
Ok....

Mike Webb -

"We went back and checked it and sure enough the fuel had vaporized, boiled, and that's what caused the bike to stop. Actually, Metty's bike ran out of gas from the podium to the truck after the second moto."

So there was still gas in RD's tank? I must have missed that part.

Just sayin...
downandup
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In A Cave, CA US
6/2/2011 8:55am
"vaporized, boiled"

Wth?

He just ran out of gas.......
pie8man
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Loveland, CO US
6/2/2011 9:55am
Goose; The Fuel? I dunno where it went but it "disappeared"
RD; you mean it vaporized?
Goose; Yeah we'll go with that.
Unklemoose
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Brentwood, CA US
6/2/2011 10:09am
Fuel tanks also used to sit on top of the frame, now tanks sit lower and closer to the heat and I still can't figure out why the factories continue to make such small fuel tanks, when I helped out the VMS team in 2009 at Southwick Yamaha told them to run the WR tank, Regal did not want the bigger tank, Yamaha said they had to run it, they put it on, after the first moto Jimmy Lewis measured the gas left, had they run the stock they would have run out of gas.

Kraig
peelout
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6/2/2011 1:06pm
downandup wrote:
"vaporized, boiled"

Wth?

He just ran out of gas.......
^ this

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