How did JS get 18th?

prozach
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 8:08am
Don't get it. From the video Georke obviously made it further down the track. Not sure about Peick, if he didn't start or something. Seems kind of odd that the ama would just give JS the three points like that when at least one of the riders made it further then him down the track.
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toroP
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3/20/2011 10:12am
video? care to post it? thanks in advance.
mt798
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3/20/2011 10:14am
Don't ask! Never happened! Nothing to see here, move along!
kongols
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3/20/2011 10:16am
prozach wrote:
Don't get it. From the video Georke obviously made it further down the track. Not sure about Peick, if he didn't start or something. Seems kind...
Don't get it. From the video Georke obviously made it further down the track. Not sure about Peick, if he didn't start or something. Seems kind of odd that the ama would just give JS the three points like that when at least one of the riders made it further then him down the track.
Is that you in your avatar?

The Shop

prozach
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3/20/2011 10:17am
kongols wrote:
Is that you in your avatar?
yeah
mt798
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3/20/2011 10:19am
Shows him in 20th on the AMA Live Timing screen and shows him to have ran ZERO laps.
kongols
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3/20/2011 10:20am
prozach wrote:
yeah
So you do race?
KTM48
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3/20/2011 10:21am
Here is a little better angle. I dont know who got up and who didnt tho.
SMITH201
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3/20/2011 10:27am Edited Date/Time 3/20/2011 10:28am
KTM48 wrote:
Here is a little better angle. I dont know who got up and who didnt tho.
Looks to me they just got thier arms together causing James to give it handful of throttle. Nobody's fault, just a racing incident.
kongols
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3/20/2011 10:29am
SMITH201 wrote:
Looks to me they just got thier arms together causing James to give it handful of throttle. Nobody's fault, just a racing incident.
Ha! We made same exact comment at the same time in different threads. Buddy!Laughing Cool
SMITH201
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3/20/2011 10:31am
SMITH201 wrote:
Looks to me they just got thier arms together causing James to give it handful of throttle. Nobody's fault, just a racing incident.
kongols wrote:
Ha! We made same exact comment at the same time in different threads. Buddy!Laughing Cool
Just saw that Smile
DownSouth
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3/20/2011 10:40am Edited Date/Time 3/20/2011 10:52am
prozach wrote:
Don't get it. From the video Georke obviously made it further down the track. Not sure about Peick, if he didn't start or something. Seems kind...
Don't get it. From the video Georke obviously made it further down the track. Not sure about Peick, if he didn't start or something. Seems kind of odd that the ama would just give JS the three points like that when at least one of the riders made it further then him down the track.
I was wondering the same thing last night. Like you said Goerke was ahead of Stewart but Peick is not visible. I had assumed that it would go by who made it the furthest around the track but that does not seem to be the case.

The only thing I can figure is that since Stewart, Georke, and Peick never made one lap that they awarded positions based on qualifying times. The last 3 spots ended up ranked in order of qualifying times, Stewart (1), Goerke (15), and Peick (16).

I wonder what, if anything is spelled out in the rule book for this type of scenario. edit: I just looked through the SX rulebook but is very general and does not detail anything like this.

4.22 Race Finishes

a. Races are officially ended for all contestants at the completion of the lap in which the checkered flag is displayed to the
winner.

b. To be considered as having completed a lap, the rider and his motorcycle must cross the plane of the checkered flag.

c. Riders will be credited with all laps they complete during a race unless a penalty has been assessed.

d. Riders choosing to leave a race before its completion need not wait for the checkered flag to receive credit for laps they have completed.

e. Should the checkered flag be displayed later than the official distance, the finishing order will be decided on the basis of the official distance.

f. Under any other circumstances, the winner is the leader at the time the checkered flag is displayed.

g. A motorcycle that enters the paddock during a race will not be permitted to return to the racetrack.

h. Should a rider be given the checkered flag ahead of the actual winner, or with the winners, the rider will be scored as having completed the race in the race position the rider was running at that time.

i. A video camera may be used at the finish line to aid the scorekeepers in determining the finishing order of a close race. Should video footage from an AMA-designated camera be unavailable or inconclusive for any reason, the scoring of the finish will be based solely on the scorekeepers' decision.

j. At the conclusion of the race any riders who do not complete the same number of laps as the leader will be scored in orderof finish, laps completed and the number of laps completed first.

k. A rider whose motorcycle is disabled before reaching the finish line may, by the rider's own unaided muscular energy, push or carry the motorcycle in the proper direction of the track to complete the race by crossing the finish line, unless the rider is determined to be a hazard by the Race Director.



There may be a larger set of AMA rules somewhere or maybe they were just winging it.
teggers
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3/20/2011 10:56am
Didn't you watch it live on TV or listen live on the internet webcast?
GuyB
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3/20/2011 11:09am
Apparently occasionally they'll use segment timing to determine who went further on finishes. I did hear that Goerke's transponder was separated from his bike.

I've got a question in on this.
3/20/2011 12:11pm
GuyB wrote:
Apparently occasionally they'll use segment timing to determine who went further on finishes. I did hear that Goerke's transponder was separated from his bike. I've got...
Apparently occasionally they'll use segment timing to determine who went further on finishes. I did hear that Goerke's transponder was separated from his bike.

I've got a question in on this.
I have always wished SX and MX tracks would be divided up in to 3 timed sectors like other forms of racing. For scoring purposes but also so that riders can figure out where they are losing time more specifically.
Sully22
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3/20/2011 12:25pm Edited Date/Time 3/20/2011 12:26pm
GuyB wrote:
Apparently occasionally they'll use segment timing to determine who went further on finishes. I did hear that Goerke's transponder was separated from his bike. I've got...
Apparently occasionally they'll use segment timing to determine who went further on finishes. I did hear that Goerke's transponder was separated from his bike.

I've got a question in on this.
I have always wished SX and MX tracks would be divided up in to 3 timed sectors like other forms of racing. For scoring purposes but...
I have always wished SX and MX tracks would be divided up in to 3 timed sectors like other forms of racing. For scoring purposes but also so that riders can figure out where they are losing time more specifically.
prozach
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3/20/2011 5:13pm
GuyB wrote:
Apparently occasionally they'll use segment timing to determine who went further on finishes. I did hear that Goerke's transponder was separated from his bike. I've got...
Apparently occasionally they'll use segment timing to determine who went further on finishes. I did hear that Goerke's transponder was separated from his bike.

I've got a question in on this.
Did you ever get an answer???
TerryK
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3/20/2011 5:19pm
I don't get how a guy who dosen't complete a single lap is credited with ANY points. A dnf is a dnf and with a dnf you are supposed to get zero points. If you don't cross the finish line and pass the checkers then it's a dnf which equals zero points.
DownSouth
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3/20/2011 5:37pm Edited Date/Time 3/20/2011 5:38pm
TerryK wrote:
I don't get how a guy who dosen't complete a single lap is credited with ANY points. A dnf is a dnf and with a dnf...
I don't get how a guy who dosen't complete a single lap is credited with ANY points. A dnf is a dnf and with a dnf you are supposed to get zero points. If you don't cross the finish line and pass the checkers then it's a dnf which equals zero points.
I tend to agree with you. In essence guys got bonus points for qualifying times while never making a lap.

At least they have eased up from the old days with the DNF rules. In a 1985 SX Jeff Ward broke a throttle cable in a heat race and did not cross the finish line. He was not allowed to even race the semi because he DNF'd the heat. That is a bit too extreme for my tastes. Ward ended up winning the title when Glover got DQ'd for ridng backwards on the track when he crashed and rolled to the bottom of a jump before turning around. The stars would never get treated that way these days. The AMA rules used to have some teeth back then, these days they are scared to penalize anyone unless they are a privateer.
haydos25
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3/20/2011 5:45pm
I read somewhere that if 2 riders both fail to finish a lap then they go off the higher finish in the heat race. Hence why James was credited with 18th instead of 20th because he finished higher in his heat than both Peick and Goerke. And the reason behind them having him registered in 20th originally was due to both Goerke and Peick crossing the timing line before him on the sight lap and the system not re zeroing itself at the start of the main.

Both these seem like reasonable answers to thos questions so im gonna go with those and do no further research on the topic. Cool

However my opinion is if you dont finish you should get zero points, a DNF is a DNF. Obvious exception is a mechanical on the last lap when you've lapped up to 10th eg Reed in Daytona. Whole other can of worms there though.
DownSouth
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3/20/2011 5:52pm
haydos25 wrote:
I read somewhere that if 2 riders both fail to finish a lap then they go off the higher finish in the heat race. Hence why...
I read somewhere that if 2 riders both fail to finish a lap then they go off the higher finish in the heat race. Hence why James was credited with 18th instead of 20th because he finished higher in his heat than both Peick and Goerke. And the reason behind them having him registered in 20th originally was due to both Goerke and Peick crossing the timing line before him on the sight lap and the system not re zeroing itself at the start of the main.

Both these seem like reasonable answers to thos questions so im gonna go with those and do no further research on the topic. Cool

However my opinion is if you dont finish you should get zero points, a DNF is a DNF. Obvious exception is a mechanical on the last lap when you've lapped up to 10th eg Reed in Daytona. Whole other can of worms there though.
Goerke and Peick both finsished 8th in their heats. How do they break that tie? By the quicker heat time or qualifying time?
chillrich
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3/20/2011 5:55pm
Stewart landed further down the track than Goerke if that means anything.Wink
haydos25
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3/20/2011 5:55pm
DownSouth wrote:
Goerke and Peick both finsished 8th in their heats. How do they break that tie? By the quicker heat time or qualifying time?
Got me on that one, draw straws, high card, i dunno. Logically they'd probably take the faster heat time, then if thats identical quicker qualifier, if thats the same countback for the series, the scenarios can go on and on really.
UAW_member
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3/20/2011 6:31pm
Every place I have looked, including the Speed Channel broadcast, has Bubba in 20th with the exception of the AMA results page. Apparently, no one else is aware of the formula that gives James 2 extra points. Racer X has the current points showing JS three points ahead of yesterday directly below the results that would only give him one points. Maybe it's a "home field" bonus???
3/20/2011 6:47pm
DownSouth wrote:
I tend to agree with you. In essence guys got bonus points for qualifying times while never making a lap. At least they have eased up...
I tend to agree with you. In essence guys got bonus points for qualifying times while never making a lap.

At least they have eased up from the old days with the DNF rules. In a 1985 SX Jeff Ward broke a throttle cable in a heat race and did not cross the finish line. He was not allowed to even race the semi because he DNF'd the heat. That is a bit too extreme for my tastes. Ward ended up winning the title when Glover got DQ'd for ridng backwards on the track when he crashed and rolled to the bottom of a jump before turning around. The stars would never get treated that way these days. The AMA rules used to have some teeth back then, these days they are scared to penalize anyone unless they are a privateer.
Way off DS. Ward crashed, ended up on top of a jump pointed the wrong way, with a broken clutch lever. Rolled the bike down the jump in the WRONG direction, to bump start the bike. Disqualified from the heat.

Back then ,you had to finish well enough in your heat to transfer to the semi. With a DQ from the heat infraction, Ward should have not been in the semi, as he did not transfer out of the heat.

As Glover and Ward were tied in points going into the Rose Bowl final, I believe Mike Goodwin (promoter), made it clear that Ward would be in the final. Couldn't let rules get in the way of a duel for the title.


Glover was robbed. The AMA had DQ'd at least one other rider that year , I think two, actually, for the same type of infraction, but caved in and turned the other cheek on Ward's infraction, mostly to stroke Goodwin's ego.

Kind of like fuelgate, when two other riders were penalized, while a third,walked away with no penalty.

The AMA should stick to Goldwing Rallies.
DownSouth
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3/20/2011 7:21pm Edited Date/Time 3/20/2011 7:22pm
Way off DS. Ward crashed, ended up on top of a jump pointed the wrong way, with a broken clutch lever. Rolled the bike down the...
Way off DS. Ward crashed, ended up on top of a jump pointed the wrong way, with a broken clutch lever. Rolled the bike down the jump in the WRONG direction, to bump start the bike. Disqualified from the heat.

Back then ,you had to finish well enough in your heat to transfer to the semi. With a DQ from the heat infraction, Ward should have not been in the semi, as he did not transfer out of the heat.

As Glover and Ward were tied in points going into the Rose Bowl final, I believe Mike Goodwin (promoter), made it clear that Ward would be in the final. Couldn't let rules get in the way of a duel for the title.


Glover was robbed. The AMA had DQ'd at least one other rider that year , I think two, actually, for the same type of infraction, but caved in and turned the other cheek on Ward's infraction, mostly to stroke Goodwin's ego.

Kind of like fuelgate, when two other riders were penalized, while a third,walked away with no penalty.

The AMA should stick to Goldwing Rallies.
Way off? Silly Well it was 27 years ago. After reading it, your version does sound more correct than my fuzzy recollection.
`ol Ger
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3/20/2011 7:38pm
GuyB wrote:
Apparently occasionally they'll use segment timing to determine who went further on finishes. I did hear that Goerke's transponder was separated from his bike. I've got...
Apparently occasionally they'll use segment timing to determine who went further on finishes. I did hear that Goerke's transponder was separated from his bike.

I've got a question in on this.
Good. The `wire had him at 20th.
FlaNard
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3/20/2011 9:06pm
TerryK wrote:
I don't get how a guy who dosen't complete a single lap is credited with ANY points. A dnf is a dnf and with a dnf...
I don't get how a guy who dosen't complete a single lap is credited with ANY points. A dnf is a dnf and with a dnf you are supposed to get zero points. If you don't cross the finish line and pass the checkers then it's a dnf which equals zero points.
This ^^^^^^^^^^^.
gotwings
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3/20/2011 10:07pm
TerryK wrote:
I don't get how a guy who dosen't complete a single lap is credited with ANY points. A dnf is a dnf and with a dnf...
I don't get how a guy who dosen't complete a single lap is credited with ANY points. A dnf is a dnf and with a dnf you are supposed to get zero points. If you don't cross the finish line and pass the checkers then it's a dnf which equals zero points.
That's the way it SHOULD be. For example, when Windham won the mud fest at Daytona in '08, he was locked in a points battle with Reed for the title. Reed's Yamaha blew up on the last lap, he didn't finish, and was credited with 9th, I think and 9 points. He went on to win the title by 7 points over Windham. Total B.S., if you ask me!
RACEGUY
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3/20/2011 11:23pm
gotwings wrote:
That's the way it SHOULD be. For example, when Windham won the mud fest at Daytona in '08, he was locked in a points battle with...
That's the way it SHOULD be. For example, when Windham won the mud fest at Daytona in '08, he was locked in a points battle with Reed for the title. Reed's Yamaha blew up on the last lap, he didn't finish, and was credited with 9th, I think and 9 points. He went on to win the title by 7 points over Windham. Total B.S., if you ask me!
Guess you have absolutely no clue how points, scoring, and DNFs actually work. Therefore, I'd recommend you STFU and stop embarrassing yourself.

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