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Do they race?
Did a high level Honda employee on a podcast recently NOT say that Honda race bikes are now developed by the automotive and marketing departments?
Do they care about which is a better race machine for us to own and ride every week over profits?
Besides the handicap which is made up, there are only disadvantages unless your bank account or industry affiliation relies on it being so.
I also think the existing rules may have allowed it. The 250 class always allowed a displacement advantage to the four strokes, 550cc I believe until 04 or so, and I think the same deal may have existed in the 125 class. Someone must have a rule book from 2000.
Blame the Swedes . . . they're the ones who started the big four banger renewal.
My question is: Why hasn't some racing organization started the '2 stroke Nationals'?
The Shop
DeCal Works Huge Plastic Inventory of UFO and Polisport kits.
Luxon 4-Post Bar Mounts
$189.95 - $239.95
2011 yz250 2 stroke
Cost - $7150
Wet Weight - 227lb (2.1 gal fuel tank)
2011 yz250f 4 stroke
Cost - $7150
Wet Weight - 224.8lb (1.7 gal fuel tank) (227.2lb if it had a 2.1 gal fuel tank like the 2 stroke)
now listen. i understand the maintenance/replacement of wear item cost can be debated for another 17 pages and for or against whatever particular side you reside on in the debate and i believe points can be made for both.
and dont give me that the price of 2 strokes is high to support the r&d of 4 strokes. the price of pianos is high to support that. or that at such and such a dealer you can wheel and deal for this price. the only true way to go apples for apples is via msrp pricing.
i realize that years ago the 4 strokes could could be called expensive and heavy comparitively. however, i believe that gap has shrunk a great deal as the numbers above show, while the misnomer about price and weight continues.
MSRP* $6,250 (Team Yamaha Blue/White) Available from September 2010
Engine
Type 124cc, liquid-cooled, 2-stroke, reed-valve inducted
Bore x Stroke 54.0 x 54.5mm
Compression Ratio 8.6~10.7:1
Fuel Delivery Mikuni® TMX 38
Ignition CDI
Transmission Constant-mesh 6-speed; multiplate wet clutch
Final Drive Chain Drive
Chassis
Suspension / Front Speed-sensitive system inverted fork; fully adjustable, 11.8-in travel
Suspension / Rear Fully adjustable single shock; 12.4-in travel
Brakes / Front Hydraulic single disc brake, 250mm
Brakes / Rear Hydraulic single disc brake, 245mm
Tires / Front 80/100-21-51M
Tires / Rear 100/90-19-57M
Dimensions
Length 84.1 in
Width 32.6 in
Height 51.8 in
Seat Height 39.3 in
Wheelbase 56.8 in
Ground Clearance 15.2 in
Fuel Capacity 2.1 gal
Wet Weight*** 208 lb
Other
Warranty 30 Day (Limited Factory Warranty)
Yamaha is playing games with their MRSP on the YZ250 by limiting supply. It costs $1,000+ more to build the 250F engine. A better comparison would be the KTM 250SX and 250SXF because they aren't playing the same pricing games as Yamaha.
KTM 250SX - $6,699.00 mrsp
KTM 250F - $7,699.00 mrsp
KTM has also been continuously updating the chassis on their two stroke line whereas Yamaha hasn't done a thing with their chassis in years. That makes using KTM for comparing weight more valid also.
KTM 250SX - 206lbs
KTM 250F - 220lbs
Then factor in power, reliability and 2 second faster lap times, as observed by DC et al. Suddenly a 250F looks like a pretty poor choice.
Here's a couple of interesting notes I've been watching. There are those here that are arguing with how many new bikes everyone on the 2 stroke side has bought, although they called the kettle black and they don't even buy new bikes themselves. I would like to point out, that the same guys who buy used bikes, usually buy used bikes be it 2 or 4. But a bike has to be sold used, for the person who buys new bikes, to buy another new bike. That is the same regarding 2 or 4 strokes. Second, gaines here just pointed out, there are many here who compare how similar in weight etc the 250F is, but then they don't like the cc vs cc when asked? I personally am giving up on this pro level thing. I think we should all focus on somethings differently. We can SEE, that there will be no Pro rule change, even just the little 150cc and 300cc change we are asking for. So why do we keep hashing it out. Here's my opinion, and call me crazy. Well, many have. The fact is, 99.9% of the riders are NOT able to race in AMA rules. Places like Texas does not have that. Here's what I believe we need to do. Send out letters to promoters of local or state races. Ask them to run with the amateur type AMA rules instead of the Pro type ProAMA rules. They are not holding Pro races, and the riders aren't getting bikes and parts for free. Second, we need to start asking people like DC to start running their tests according to amateur rules. Why is it, that magazines focus on the general public, that they sell magazines and their advertisers focus on the average joe mxer, but we have tests that aren't even in parallel with amateur rules. They are not doing the tests for Pro riders. They are doing the tests for people like you or me, that need to know which 250 or open bike is the best, that I can buy and race in 250 or open class. That means I can race, a CRF250, a YZ250, a TM250, a KX250F etc. So our focus needs to be on what magazines test, that right now doesn't relate to us, but should. Thanks for your time, and thanks for your welcome back. LOL.
for the pro ranks i cant say you are wrong at this time so it would be 125 vs 250f.
i guess we can ascertain from this that only pro ridden 4 strokes are expensive heavy pigs, lol.
"Dear Sir or Madam:
I am writing you this letter in hopes of getting and giving some input regarding your current race promotion rules. Currently, you are running your Amateur program with 125cc 2 strokes vs 250cc 4 strokes and 250cc 2 strokes vs 450 4 stokes. As you may know already, the AMA, GNCC, Loretta Lynn, Ponca, as well as some other state promoters, and other country promoters etc have changed to the old more common rules, 125cc, 250cc and open class. You are using what ProAMA uses, although you are promoting amateur races that are more similar to AMA. The reason I’m writing you, is that I see current race structures like this, detrimental to our sport. Although in pro racing, the racers have 250F’s that are free well built by PC, FC etc, most of the amateurs have to spend their own money to race and upkeep. For some, that is not a problem, but for others, it drives them to make serious choices. Either have no chance on a smaller cc bike, or stop racing due to cost. To me, that is unfair, and I hope you feel the same way. What I’m asking for, and what many others like me are asking for, is to have fair cc vs cc rules. If you take a look at all the promoters, around the world, who have changed back to the old rules. You will see that there is great bar to bar racing, which favors 4 strokes at some point on the track and 2 strokes at others. Which in reality gives an outcome of very good racing. We have not seen the 1 sided racing like many have advocated will happen, and what currently happens when you try to race with an almost half cc’ed bike. It has been shown to be very fair across the board, and I implore you to please consider this. I can send you videos of races in which I speak. It will help show you that the cc vs cc rules are very fair. A thought I’ll end with. If we evaluate an open class for example, you can compare a CR500 or similar to a CRF450. HP vs HP, we both know the CR will win. We also know why they stopped selling them. Only a very few can ride that bike to anywhere near it’s potential or even hold on for that matter. So the CRF450 would still win in most races. Although per the current example, we see it’s more fair in reality than trying to race that same CRF450 with a CR250. Thanks for your time, and please feel free to contact me any time.
Sincerely;
Pit Row
I do ride a Service bike, 09 KX250AF
http://www.servicehonda.com/kawasaki-2010-models/kx250af
It's all about those who ride the beaters.
Post a reply to: Jody, MXA, Two Strokes and Matthes