Jody, MXA, Two Strokes and Matthes

JJO741
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JJO741 1/12/2011 11:23am
1/12/2011 11:23am
The unfortunate part is that top level racers will most likely still use a 4 stroke. I honestly like both 2 and 4 strokes. I have fun on both and ride them both anytime I go riding.
vet323
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vet323 1/12/2011 11:33am
1/12/2011 11:33am
FreshTopEnd wrote:
Maybe the first thing to argue is the premise that the sport is secure enough financially for the sanctioning body to be able force a rule...
Maybe the first thing to argue is the premise that the sport is secure enough financially for the sanctioning body to be able force a rule down the OEM's throats that they don't want and survive if they reject it.

The proportion of OEM money subsidizing the sport seems to be diminishing, so maybe the day will come when the sanctioning body can tell them to pound sand, but I don't think it's there yet.
I'm failing to see the logic here.

Allowing equal displacement doesn't affect any of the OEM's. They can still race the bikes they have now, it just allows smaller OEM's/teams a chance to compete. It's not like 1997/98, when every other OEM had to suddenly pay for research and development, tooling and manufacturing of a totally different engine just to remain competitive. The four-strokes are already competitive with equal displacement two-strokes, they can race whichever they want.

Who knows, if a few pros start doing well on two-strokes, maybe someone can sell a bike for a change.
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swizcore 1/12/2011 11:34am
1/12/2011 11:34am
DC wrote:
Yes, i have sone thoughts on this... But I called it the Racer X Rookies' Cup when I pitched it last year. Maybe the support and...
Yes, i have sone thoughts on this... But I called it the Racer X Rookies' Cup when I pitched it last year. Maybe the support and number of bikes will actually be there this time. I don't think anyone on this board is an actual 16 to 19-year-old prospect who would participate, though a few parents and sponsors might be on here....

Question on straight-up racing in the 250 class: how woold Mike Alessi do in the 250 class on a factory KTM two-smoke? I am afraid the answer would not be good for racing, but it would be great for #800.... That's the real conundrum. Some think it will even the playing field, but I am afraid it would give others a distinct advantage, and then the factories that still make and market two-strokes in America would have an overwhelming advantage.

Just my two cents.

DC
MX Sports
DC wrote:
I don't think anyone on this board is an actual 16 to 19-year-old prospect who would participate...

Devin Davis just took his shirt off.
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mooch 1/12/2011 11:39am
1/12/2011 11:39am Edited Date/Time 1/12/2011 11:40am
Moto East Mag wrote:
Brock Tickle? I think you have the wrong rider. He races 250 class for Pro Circuit obviously.
newmann wrote:
No, it's Broc Tickle. He was referencing to 06 and his rookie season. He chose to ride 450's because they were not as expensive. He also...
No, it's Broc Tickle. He was referencing to 06 and his rookie season. He chose to ride 450's because they were not as expensive. He also mentioned the wide gap between the factory team 250F's and what normal people could afford.
Thanks for clarifying my post newmann! Guess I didn't get into enough detail as I assumed everyone read MXA Smile

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FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 1/12/2011 11:42am
1/12/2011 11:42am
vet323 wrote:
I'm failing to see the logic here. Allowing equal displacement doesn't affect any of the OEM's. They can still race the bikes they have now, it...
I'm failing to see the logic here.

Allowing equal displacement doesn't affect any of the OEM's. They can still race the bikes they have now, it just allows smaller OEM's/teams a chance to compete. It's not like 1997/98, when every other OEM had to suddenly pay for research and development, tooling and manufacturing of a totally different engine just to remain competitive. The four-strokes are already competitive with equal displacement two-strokes, they can race whichever they want.

Who knows, if a few pros start doing well on two-strokes, maybe someone can sell a bike for a change.
It's logical, but we don't like the logic. A 250 two-stroke will kill a 250 four stroke, and the OEM's who don't make 250 two strokes don't want to compete against them. It's as logical as saying it's unreasonable to put a 250 smoker up against a 450 banger.
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mooch 1/12/2011 11:48am
1/12/2011 11:48am Edited Date/Time 1/12/2011 11:52am
FreshTopEnd wrote:
It's logical, but we don't like the logic. A 250 two-stroke will kill a 250 four stroke, and the OEM's who don't make 250 two strokes...
It's logical, but we don't like the logic. A 250 two-stroke will kill a 250 four stroke, and the OEM's who don't make 250 two strokes don't want to compete against them. It's as logical as saying it's unreasonable to put a 250 smoker up against a 450 banger.
Wasn't too long ago that MXA had done a lap time comparison between 2 stroke 250s and 4 stroke 250s and those times were very similar. The 250 4 strokes involved in that comparison weren't even factory or PC bikes.

Are you saying that an OEM or PC can't put together a 250 4stroke that can hang with a privateer on a 250 2stroke in this day and age.
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Dropbear 1/12/2011 11:55am
1/12/2011 11:55am
FreshTopEnd wrote:
It's logical, but we don't like the logic. A 250 two-stroke will kill a 250 four stroke, and the OEM's who don't make 250 two strokes...
It's logical, but we don't like the logic. A 250 two-stroke will kill a 250 four stroke, and the OEM's who don't make 250 two strokes don't want to compete against them. It's as logical as saying it's unreasonable to put a 250 smoker up against a 450 banger.
mooch wrote:
Wasn't too long ago that MXA had done a lap time comparison between 2 stroke 250s and 4 stroke 250s and those times were very similar...
Wasn't too long ago that MXA had done a lap time comparison between 2 stroke 250s and 4 stroke 250s and those times were very similar. The 250 4 strokes involved in that comparison weren't even factory or PC bikes.

Are you saying that an OEM or PC can't put together a 250 4stroke that can hang with a privateer on a 250 2stroke in this day and age.
A four stroke of equal displacement will never produce the HP that a two stroke produces unless you make it do 15,000 - 20,000 plus RPM. Then it's harder to ride than a two stroke so what is the point.

Look at the old Honda Road racers of the 60's. They had to mad things (6 cylinder 250's FFS) just to keep up with simple 2 strokes from Yamaha.
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newmann 1/12/2011 12:05pm
1/12/2011 12:05pm
vet323 wrote:
I'm failing to see the logic here. Allowing equal displacement doesn't affect any of the OEM's. They can still race the bikes they have now, it...
I'm failing to see the logic here.

Allowing equal displacement doesn't affect any of the OEM's. They can still race the bikes they have now, it just allows smaller OEM's/teams a chance to compete. It's not like 1997/98, when every other OEM had to suddenly pay for research and development, tooling and manufacturing of a totally different engine just to remain competitive. The four-strokes are already competitive with equal displacement two-strokes, they can race whichever they want.

Who knows, if a few pros start doing well on two-strokes, maybe someone can sell a bike for a change.
FreshTopEnd wrote:
It's logical, but we don't like the logic. A 250 two-stroke will kill a 250 four stroke, and the OEM's who don't make 250 two strokes...
It's logical, but we don't like the logic. A 250 two-stroke will kill a 250 four stroke, and the OEM's who don't make 250 two strokes don't want to compete against them. It's as logical as saying it's unreasonable to put a 250 smoker up against a 450 banger.
I don't think that would necessarily be true. Different track conditions will favor one here and the other there. It would bring a different perspective to the racing. The 250 2 stroke should get a holeshot against a 250F.....except for the Pro-Circuit or Factory Connection team bikes. Hard to beat that kind of money.
burn1986
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burn1986 1/12/2011 12:05pm
1/12/2011 12:05pm
"DC, I’d like to dispel a few misstatements.
1. First, as far as any factory rider being put on a 250 2 stroke, it hasn’t happened anywhere there is cc vs cc rules. That is in countries even that have OEM’s like Suzuki’s and Kawasaki’s that still sell in those countries like Australia etc. There has been no factory riders put on KTM’s or Yamaha’s either. Even in the LL national, the riders who are sponsored by big teams rode 4 stroke 250s. So it shows that OEM’s will not do as you state.
2. Second, you have stated multiple times that a 250 2 stroke would run 2-3 second a faster lap times. If we take a look at lap times, between the 250 and 450 class, again, we see that they are very similar lap times. In many cases the 250F’s run faster lap times. If the 250 2 stroke was running 2-3 second a lap faster, than they would still be winning races against 450’s.
3. Third, 450F’s have never really been part of the argument on the 2 stroke side. We have always talked about the 250F’s being the problem. The 450F’s are most likely not going anywhere. Their motors are used in 4 wheelers and other things that make it a crossover motor. And we do know they are pretty reliable. But the 4 stroke guys aways use the 450F reliability when comparing. I have yet to see an argument that the 250F is more reliable than the 250 2 stroke. So what really would be wrong with letting the 250F fall away, for a cheaper, cheaper to maintain, and pretty equal bike? It would help our sport.
4. Finally, if we did have 125, 250 and open classes again, what really would be in danger as far as 4 strokes? If anything the 250F, but as we’ve seen the factory and factory backed teams will run the 250F, so what’s left is the privateer. That rider isn’t going to win against a PC Kawasaki. The Open bikes, really, does anyone think a big 500AF is going to be able to run motos at 450F’s pace? Sure a lot of power, but just not going to happen due to the fact they just plain wear the rider out faster. So in closing, although on paper, it may seem like things like you say will happen. In reality, we know that it will not. There will be no factory riders put on 250 2 strokes. The 4 stroke will remain the dominate bike. But you will hear no more crap from the 2 stroke side, and life will go on with less stress."

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fader418 1/12/2011 12:06pm
1/12/2011 12:06pm
DC, it may give an advantage to the 2 stroke.....but look at the advantage PC has had for how many years now? And Geico.....no way a privateer can compete against these guys.....
vet323
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vet323 1/12/2011 12:07pm
1/12/2011 12:07pm
vet323 wrote:
I'm failing to see the logic here. Allowing equal displacement doesn't affect any of the OEM's. They can still race the bikes they have now, it...
I'm failing to see the logic here.

Allowing equal displacement doesn't affect any of the OEM's. They can still race the bikes they have now, it just allows smaller OEM's/teams a chance to compete. It's not like 1997/98, when every other OEM had to suddenly pay for research and development, tooling and manufacturing of a totally different engine just to remain competitive. The four-strokes are already competitive with equal displacement two-strokes, they can race whichever they want.

Who knows, if a few pros start doing well on two-strokes, maybe someone can sell a bike for a change.
FreshTopEnd wrote:
It's logical, but we don't like the logic. A 250 two-stroke will kill a 250 four stroke, and the OEM's who don't make 250 two strokes...
It's logical, but we don't like the logic. A 250 two-stroke will kill a 250 four stroke, and the OEM's who don't make 250 two strokes don't want to compete against them. It's as logical as saying it's unreasonable to put a 250 smoker up against a 450 banger.
I would posit the opinion that a 250 smoker is no faster in comparison to a 250 4-banger than a 450 4-stroke is in comparison to a 300 2-stroke. Do you think the OEM's that don't make a 2-stroke should be listened to as loudly as they were 13 years ago (back when they didn't make 4-strokes)? It's ironic that Yamaha, the manufacturer that "caused" the demise of 2-strokes is the only Jap. company still selling them in the US.

I propose a compromise, lets make the manufacturers develop a 3-stroke so everyone is happy.
Richardsmx211 1/12/2011 12:07pm
1/12/2011 12:07pm
First off, I think modern 4-stroke motocross bikes are amazing, however, it's not a fare or true comparison when a 4-stroke is twice the displacement of a 2-stroke. Comparing equal displacements, 2-strokes will have a slight advantage over a 4-stroke of any size, plus we're comparing 2002 or 2003 2-stroke technology against 2010 4-stroke development.

Imagine what a 2-stroke would be like today if the factory's continued with their development? I'm sure they could make them track better by altering power delivery or maybe chassis changes. They're already light, nimble, fast and affordable and I'm sure people would buy and race them. I certainly would but for now I'm buying 2005 and newer YZ125/250 Yamaha's since they haven't changed much.

I think someday we will see a mix of different engine technologies in racing and who knows, maybe there will be a hybrid electic vehicle? What class would you place a 10 Kilowatt electric bike? I guess that will be a post for a date far in the future.
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mooch 1/12/2011 12:16pm
1/12/2011 12:16pm
FreshTopEnd wrote:
It's logical, but we don't like the logic. A 250 two-stroke will kill a 250 four stroke, and the OEM's who don't make 250 two strokes...
It's logical, but we don't like the logic. A 250 two-stroke will kill a 250 four stroke, and the OEM's who don't make 250 two strokes don't want to compete against them. It's as logical as saying it's unreasonable to put a 250 smoker up against a 450 banger.
mooch wrote:
Wasn't too long ago that MXA had done a lap time comparison between 2 stroke 250s and 4 stroke 250s and those times were very similar...
Wasn't too long ago that MXA had done a lap time comparison between 2 stroke 250s and 4 stroke 250s and those times were very similar. The 250 4 strokes involved in that comparison weren't even factory or PC bikes.

Are you saying that an OEM or PC can't put together a 250 4stroke that can hang with a privateer on a 250 2stroke in this day and age.
Dropbear wrote:
A four stroke of equal displacement will never produce the HP that a two stroke produces unless you make it do 15,000 - 20,000 plus RPM...
A four stroke of equal displacement will never produce the HP that a two stroke produces unless you make it do 15,000 - 20,000 plus RPM. Then it's harder to ride than a two stroke so what is the point.

Look at the old Honda Road racers of the 60's. They had to mad things (6 cylinder 250's FFS) just to keep up with simple 2 strokes from Yamaha.
I'm sure most folks would agree that when it comes to matching a 2stroke 250 up against a 4 stroke 250 that it's not entirely all about the sheer horsepower number but rather the fact that the 4stroke has a broader powerband that will allow the bike to hook up on a slicker track while also not wearing the rider out as quickly. It's a give and take situation based upon conditions.

Speaking of give and take...so far, it's been pretty lopsided in that the the pro rules have done nothing but take from the less costly 2 stroke and handed the unfair advantage over to the more costly 4 stroke.
Dropbear
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Dropbear 1/12/2011 12:18pm
1/12/2011 12:18pm
Left field, but Jeff Ward is pissed off that he wasn't allowed to bore his XR75 out to 150 back in the day.

The YZ80 may not have taken over., but wasn't it cheap racing those thing?
43roost
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43roost 1/12/2011 12:21pm
1/12/2011 12:21pm
I'm not sure which came first, the chicken or the egg as far as AMA or OEM telling who to do what, but I remember the AMA allowing Yamaha a works exemption to build its 4-stroke program because of looming EPA regulations. Honda specifically & Yamaha secondly are the ones (is "Dictating" to strong of a word?) to the sanctioning bodies what engine configuration will be used. Since they have spent so many R&D dollars, they are not interested in doing a complete 180 & flushing the 4-stroke program when it becomes clear that 2 strokes are better than 4 on an even playing field. DC, as far as one or two OEMs having an unfair advantage, if they still make a 2-stroke & can put talent on it, didn't the same thing happen with first Yamaha then Honda, then everyone followed suit? The problem lies with the OEMs lack of interest (for whatever reason). The possibility of combining strokes on a starting gate seem very slim to me because the boardrooms of the manufacturers don't want it.
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CamP 1/12/2011 12:25pm
1/12/2011 12:25pm
Egos and greed are going to saw off the limb that this sport is standing on.
burn1986
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burn1986 1/12/2011 12:28pm
1/12/2011 12:28pm
Well, what is healthy for the sport? Right now and the future.
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mooch 1/12/2011 12:57pm
1/12/2011 12:57pm
CamP wrote:
Egos and greed are going to saw off the limb that this sport is standing on.
Yep, pretty hard to believe that so many in the industry can be so shortsighted.

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FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 1/12/2011 1:01pm
1/12/2011 1:01pm
CamP wrote:
Egos and greed are going to saw off the limb that this sport is standing on.
mooch wrote:
Yep, pretty hard to believe that so many in the industry can be so shortsighted.
You know, it's not that hard in this economy when race budgets are in a pinch. It costs more to change things up sometimes thatn you'll save.

And, again, as far as the cost of racing, this is an issue for pro guys, which is a small population of riders.

As far as long term, what would be interesting is some real insight into the OEM management on their decision-making and what they are taking into consideration and what they have to do to compete for resources in their organizations. Folks might not agree with or like what they hear, but at least it would be transparent.
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MBBadgers 1/12/2011 1:03pm
1/12/2011 1:03pm
CamP wrote:
Egos and greed are going to saw off the limb that this sport is standing on.
mooch wrote:
Yep, pretty hard to believe that so many in the industry can be so shortsighted.
Why does it have to be the Industry? Seems the industry is feeding off what the public show's them, there were/are a lot of 4-strokes out there, some manufacturers stopped making 2-strokes because they weren't being purchased, so tell me who's to blame? I'm a die hard 2-stroke fan, but I have to think we, as in the public really screwed the pooch on this one. Both letting the government tell us they were banishing 2-strokes because of the environment, and letting Yamaha get their leg up on the 4-stroke.
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Dropbear 1/12/2011 1:03pm
1/12/2011 1:03pm
CamP wrote:
Egos and greed are going to saw off the limb that this sport is standing on.
mooch wrote:
Yep, pretty hard to believe that so many in the industry can be so shortsighted.
FreshTopEnd wrote:
You know, it's not that hard in this economy when race budgets are in a pinch. It costs more to change things up sometimes thatn you'll...
You know, it's not that hard in this economy when race budgets are in a pinch. It costs more to change things up sometimes thatn you'll save.

And, again, as far as the cost of racing, this is an issue for pro guys, which is a small population of riders.

As far as long term, what would be interesting is some real insight into the OEM management on their decision-making and what they are taking into consideration and what they have to do to compete for resources in their organizations. Folks might not agree with or like what they hear, but at least it would be transparent.
It would be interesting to see what the OEM's 10-20 yr plan is for MX. But then again I might not want to know.
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rgmx-49 1/12/2011 1:12pm
1/12/2011 1:12pm
two strokes r still used for fmx Tongue
mooch
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mooch 1/12/2011 1:15pm
1/12/2011 1:15pm
CamP wrote:
Egos and greed are going to saw off the limb that this sport is standing on.
mooch wrote:
Yep, pretty hard to believe that so many in the industry can be so shortsighted.
FreshTopEnd wrote:
You know, it's not that hard in this economy when race budgets are in a pinch. It costs more to change things up sometimes thatn you'll...
You know, it's not that hard in this economy when race budgets are in a pinch. It costs more to change things up sometimes thatn you'll save.

And, again, as far as the cost of racing, this is an issue for pro guys, which is a small population of riders.

As far as long term, what would be interesting is some real insight into the OEM management on their decision-making and what they are taking into consideration and what they have to do to compete for resources in their organizations. Folks might not agree with or like what they hear, but at least it would be transparent.
FTE, that's where we disagree.

The OEMS would continue to race the 250F in the 250 class and it would not cost them anything.

If privateers wanted to run a 2 stroke they would then have the option to race a YZ or KTM and they'd then be on a more level playing field with the factory and PC 250f's. Why would that scenario be bad for the sport?

The question that I ran past you earlier in the thread that I didn't hear back on was...

"Are you saying that an OEM or PC can't put together a 250 4stroke that can hang with a privateer on a 250 2stroke in this day and age."
Tranzworld Mowercross 1/12/2011 1:19pm
1/12/2011 1:19pm Edited Date/Time 1/12/2011 1:28pm
I really hope we can see a 125 class in the USA. The European one is excellent. The races that are posted online are so cool to watch!
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gaines1016 1/12/2011 1:22pm
1/12/2011 1:22pm
Dropbear wrote:
It would be interesting to see what the OEM's 10-20 yr plan is for MX. But then again I might not want to know.
electric

and then all us will be able to bitch about missing gas powered motorbikes.
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mooch 1/12/2011 1:23pm
1/12/2011 1:23pm Edited Date/Time 1/12/2011 1:26pm
CamP wrote:
Egos and greed are going to saw off the limb that this sport is standing on.
mooch wrote:
Yep, pretty hard to believe that so many in the industry can be so shortsighted.
MBBadgers wrote:
Why does it have to be the Industry? Seems the industry is feeding off what the public show's them, there were/are a lot of 4-strokes out...
Why does it have to be the Industry? Seems the industry is feeding off what the public show's them, there were/are a lot of 4-strokes out there, some manufacturers stopped making 2-strokes because they weren't being purchased, so tell me who's to blame? I'm a die hard 2-stroke fan, but I have to think we, as in the public really screwed the pooch on this one. Both letting the government tell us they were banishing 2-strokes because of the environment, and letting Yamaha get their leg up on the 4-stroke.
MBBadgers...I'm referring to the industry (AMA,OEMs, Promoters) not seeing the benefit of a rule change that would allow all 250s to run in the 250 pro class. I'm not saying that Honda or anyone else must start selling 2 strokes again...that of course is entirely up to them.

The ongoing question is...WHY allow an old displacement rule to continue that was meant to put 4 strokes on the same footing as 2strokes when it's no longer healthy for the sport? In my opinion there have not been any good answers to why the rule can't be changed. It's all about somebody making a buck is what it all comes down to.
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GrapeApe 1/12/2011 1:31pm
1/12/2011 1:31pm Edited Date/Time 1/12/2011 1:32pm
Tranzworld Mowercross wrote:
I really hope we can see a 125 class in the USA. The European one is excellent. The races that are posted online are so cool...
I really hope we can see a 125 class in the USA. The European one is excellent. The races that are posted online are so cool to watch!
There seems to be an echo in here.

Edit: Ha! You changed your post while I was typing this. Hello Burn1986.

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43roost 1/12/2011 1:52pm
1/12/2011 1:52pm
Mooch said"somebody making a buck is what it all boils down to" is the winner !!!!!! Next ....
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mxb2 1/12/2011 1:59pm
1/12/2011 1:59pm
Its funny most of the 2 stroke lovers don t buy new bikes, they buy used ones and still own 4 strokes? Hmm, speak with your wallet,if suzuki and kawy, honda sold enough 2 strokes they would still be making them! I love both the 2 strokes and 4 strokes! Just ride and be happy!
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englishman 1/12/2011 2:01pm
1/12/2011 2:01pm Edited Date/Time 1/12/2011 2:02pm
CamP wrote:
Egos and greed are going to saw off the limb that this sport is standing on.
mooch wrote:
Yep, pretty hard to believe that so many in the industry can be so shortsighted.
FreshTopEnd wrote:
You know, it's not that hard in this economy when race budgets are in a pinch. It costs more to change things up sometimes thatn you'll...
You know, it's not that hard in this economy when race budgets are in a pinch. It costs more to change things up sometimes thatn you'll save.

And, again, as far as the cost of racing, this is an issue for pro guys, which is a small population of riders.

As far as long term, what would be interesting is some real insight into the OEM management on their decision-making and what they are taking into consideration and what they have to do to compete for resources in their organizations. Folks might not agree with or like what they hear, but at least it would be transparent.
MX is such a miniscule market relatively speaking, for the big 4 at least, I'm surprised they continue to put money in to it.

And I'll qualify that statement for everyone by saying I don't know wtf I'm talking about. But talking to guys at Honda etc that do is what my comment is based on.

Post a reply to: Jody, MXA, Two Strokes and Matthes