Dungey vs. Cairoli

hey_man
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hey_man 9/26/2010 8:29pm
9/26/2010 8:29pm
Motocross83 wrote:
What's wrong with my argument? I'm totally reasonable and open to your opinion, so let's hear it. Iv'e said Dungey is the best on American soil...
What's wrong with my argument? I'm totally reasonable and open to your opinion, so let's hear it. Iv'e said Dungey is the best on American soil but as Albee, Leib and Osbourne will testify to, it's a different ball game over here.

As has been pointed out numerous times: RD beat AC not only on European soil, but in ITALY. RD beat him twice today. Short beat AC. If memory serves Villopoto put a solid beating on him at Budd's Creek on a 250 no less.
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CR250Rider 9/26/2010 8:34pm
9/26/2010 8:34pm
AC got tired and jacked his leg coming up short on the quad jump RD was doing.


hummm, you could always blame that it was a 350 vs a 450 at altitude and high temp?
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gt80rider 9/26/2010 9:20pm
9/26/2010 9:20pm Edited Date/Time 9/26/2010 9:21pm
brakkeman_ wrote:
Desalle isn't 100%.

Expected more from AC, but Mxdn isn't his specialty, has had a lot of bad luck and bad starts.
and just who is it that DOES specialize in the Mxdn??? please do tell.....



OMG i love the excuses the euros have every single year.....
Motocross83 9/27/2010 12:03am
9/27/2010 12:03am
Motocross83 wrote:
What's wrong with my argument? I'm totally reasonable and open to your opinion, so let's hear it. Iv'e said Dungey is the best on American soil...
What's wrong with my argument? I'm totally reasonable and open to your opinion, so let's hear it. Iv'e said Dungey is the best on American soil but as Albee, Leib and Osbourne will testify to, it's a different ball game over here.

hey_man wrote:
As has been pointed out numerous times: RD beat AC not only on European soil, but in ITALY. RD beat him twice today. Short beat AC...
As has been pointed out numerous times: RD beat AC not only on European soil, but in ITALY. RD beat him twice today. Short beat AC. If memory serves Villopoto put a solid beating on him at Budd's Creek on a 250 no less.
Ryan Dungey is a bad ass dude. Iv'e been rooting for him all year, right through Supercross etc. He's a cool guy and deserves everything he's achieved. He dominated the MXDN and handed Cairoli his ass yesteday. No problem, granted.

However, that isn't enough to necessarily conclude that he'd be able to do the same in Europe.

He did not, HE DID NOT beat Antonio straight up in Italy. We're all MX followers, we all have a passion for the sport and we all know what a straight up victory is. It's when your competition remains on two wheels and you beat them through shear speed and endurance.

So why do we have to go through this ridiculous charade of continuously saying Dungey's victory in 09 was straight up. It wasn't. It was a quality ride and he (Ryan) did what he had to do but he didn't beat Cairoli or Reed for that matter through shear speed. That is just a fact, it's not an opinion.

If it was a straight up victory and we refuse to take any other considerations into account, then we must also conclude that after yesterday's results Desalle beat Short and Townley straight up? Not to mention Roczen beating Canard. Or was it just that Short got taken out and Canard had rotten starts?

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Motocross83 9/27/2010 12:15am
9/27/2010 12:15am Edited Date/Time 9/27/2010 12:16am
Friday wrote:
X2. I haven't chimed in on the US. VS the world thing, though I've been following it since my Dad said we should buy T-shirts back...
X2.
I haven't chimed in on the US. VS the world thing, though I've been following it since my Dad said we should buy T-shirts back in 80 to help send the US team over to race.But the number of times and the variety of tracks we have won on should tell everyone,no matter what country they favor, who is most dominant.

And anyone who follows the sport that can put their emotions aside, should be able to see that Dungey is a better, smoother,faster,stronger,more fit,more stable rider than Cairoli. If Dungey had been beat as many times by AC I'd gladly give him props. And I do respect AC for his speed and tenacity. Outdoors he is probably only behind RD,JS and RV. Not bad!

And most American fans would tell our riders and fans alike to shut our own trap if we got beat and started making excuses. Win like a man,lose like a man. These other countries continue to be blind and make excuses before,during and after the beating we constantly dish out. I love when foreign riders come here and hang it out. I cheer for them when they do well and have become a fan of many of them. But all those who just can't see the truth? Well, start the excuses for next year! Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue
Motocross83 wrote:
No one, or rather no one serious could really ever make the argument that America isn't the strongest individual MX nation, HOWEVER that has zero, zip...
No one, or rather no one serious could really ever make the argument that America isn't the strongest individual MX nation, HOWEVER that has zero, zip, narda to do with which "series" is the best. And by best I mean in terms of speed and depth.

The MXDN isn't a good indicator of which series is the best because no other country can field 3 really good riders. They're all too small. It's a limitation of the event and something that GP followers understand and accept. However regardless of all that the MXDN is still immensely interesting.

As for the best rider, as I said it is another argument and is debatable. Everyone agreed RC was the fastest because he came over here and left zero doubt. Even when Stewart fluffed a moto in 2008 the vast majority of people would have agreed that he was clearly, at the time, the world's fastest rider.

As for that last comment about most American fans, PLEASE! Every side makes laughable claims and excuses.
pilotdude wrote:
Desalle, Ramon, and VanHorebeek are not 3 good riders?

Boog, Musquin, and Paulin are not 3 good riders?

Etc., etc.

Next.
You're right they are good riders, especially Desalle. VanHorebeek has shown flashes of brilliance but is still very unpredictable. The same applies with France's Boog. One minute he's good and then he may not be up there for several races. So yeah I accept that they're good teams (Europes best this year) but as Iv'e been saying, each one has a questionable weakness. A fatal flaw.

If you had a european team made up of Cairoli, Roczen and say, Desalle. That would be a serious threat for the win. Obviously they wouldn't win all the time but it would be fairer. At the moment they have pretty much zero chance of winning. We all know America's gonna win it. No one's surprised.
Motocross83 9/27/2010 12:34am
9/27/2010 12:34am
sharkey wrote:
i think they are close outdoors but if you say complete rider than dungey is the better because i dont think tony has many SX skills
Motocross83 wrote:
SX is techinally not the same sport, so while I see where you're coming from, I was purely approaching this from an MX angle. I could...
SX is techinally not the same sport, so while I see where you're coming from, I was purely approaching this from an MX angle. I could also make the argument that Tony's deep sand skills are far superior.

But Dungey hasn't seen deep sand anymore than Cairoli's seen AMA style SX.
mikef wrote:
Funny...Dungey lives and trains in the sand, and some of his best performances have been on sand tracks. Just because we don't have a sand track...
Funny...Dungey lives and trains in the sand, and some of his best performances have been on sand tracks. Just because we don't have a sand track in the national circuit anymore as rough as lommel doesn't mean we don't have them here in the states.

That arguement is just as silly as believing GP guys couldn't win on a track big jumps b\c they used to not have jumps as big as in the US nationals.

Sorry you have to listen to the idiots on here for another year, but AC deserves a lot of credit for riding with as good as he did with asthma, a (possibly) underpowered bike in the high elevations like that, and without the benefit of the team already having race settings.


Do you have any sand tracks in America that are as rough as lommel yet aren't on the National circuit? I confess it's news to me. It's very easy to hear people's comments about Lommel and dismiss them but believe me, it really is something else. Think along the lines of Enduro.

I'm sure Ryan has seen deep sand, just not as deep or as rough as Lommel.

Ask yourself this... Even if by some miracle there is a mini undiscovered Lommel in America somewhere, would you as a professional rider, honestly spend hours upon hours practicing in the stuff? Risking injury, not to mention putting your body through hell, and all the while knowing fully well that there isn't anything on the National circuit like it anyway?

Tony has though. He's spent hours upon hours learning the sand because it is an absolute necessity if you want to be world champion.

Dungey would beat Cairoli even more than yesterday if they got on a SX track together because Ryan's just been doing it more. The same applies to Cairoli beating Dungey at Lommel. Don't take my word for it.... Albertson has seen both ride and say's the same thing.
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pilotdude 9/27/2010 12:48am
9/27/2010 12:48am Edited Date/Time 9/27/2010 7:40am
I think Cairoli is a damn fast rider and it impressed the hell out of me when I saw him take a puff off his inhaler right after the race. Showed a lot of heart.

On a seperate note. I think a lot of people are getting pretty tired of GP fans saying, "Lommel this, and Lommel that." It's a sand track. A rough one. Got it. It's also ONE track. Give it a rest already.

What do you think...that if the U.S. finally loses on a track type they "never" ride in the U.S. that somehow proves how much better the G.P. riders are....when they ride that track all the time? Uh, no. It would prove that the U.S. riders were at an unfair disadvantage.
Motocross83 9/27/2010 2:19am
9/27/2010 2:19am
pilotdude wrote:
I think Cairoli is a damn fast rider and it impressed the hell out of me when I saw him take a puff off his inhaler...
I think Cairoli is a damn fast rider and it impressed the hell out of me when I saw him take a puff off his inhaler right after the race. Showed a lot of heart.

On a seperate note. I think a lot of people are getting pretty tired of GP fans saying, "Lommel this, and Lommel that." It's a sand track. A rough one. Got it. It's also ONE track. Give it a rest already.

What do you think...that if the U.S. finally loses on a track type they "never" ride in the U.S. that somehow proves how much better the G.P. riders are....when they ride that track all the time? Uh, no. It would prove that the U.S. riders were at an unfair disadvantage.
Understood, I agree with you here.
brakkeman_ 9/27/2010 3:08am
9/27/2010 3:08am
brakkeman_ wrote:
Desalle isn't 100%.

Expected more from AC, but Mxdn isn't his specialty, has had a lot of bad luck and bad starts.
gt80rider wrote:
and just who is it that DOES specialize in the Mxdn??? please do tell.....



OMG i love the excuses the euros have every single year.....
It's not an excuse, AC lost straight up this year, he was on Dungey's rear wheel and got a 6 second gap handed to him.

Just saying in previous Mxdn he had bad starts and first turn crashes.

I really believe last year he was the fastest mx1 guy, but a first turn crash makes it unable to prove that point.

chrisgg90 9/27/2010 3:17am
9/27/2010 3:17am
Huckster wrote:
Dungey beat him in ITALY last year as well. RD has beat him straight up the last 2 years. Best rider in the WORLD right now...
Dungey beat him in ITALY last year as well. RD has beat him straight up the last 2 years. Best rider in the WORLD right now, bar none.
He beat him straight up in Colorado, but if you think he beat him straight up in Italy you are wasted. He was miles back in the first race and then everybody who was anybody got wiped out at he start of the last race leaving dungey to ride alone.
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Old Mate 9/27/2010 3:22am
9/27/2010 3:22am
Was Dungeys 09 mxon 450 win his first ride on the big bore? Has he won EVERYTHING since then. The guy is the best yet or the luck is with him or the guys he races arn't fast, Dungey has been perfect on the big bike, he is young and he has done it all first year,that record has never been beat by anyone,EVER. Im not saying fastest on the Planet,Universe or any shit like that, i am saying,Rookie and won everything.
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jamma10 9/27/2010 3:24am
9/27/2010 3:24am
Huckster wrote:
Dungey beat him in ITALY last year as well. RD has beat him straight up the last 2 years. Best rider in the WORLD right now...
Dungey beat him in ITALY last year as well. RD has beat him straight up the last 2 years. Best rider in the WORLD right now, bar none.
chrisgg90 wrote:
He beat him straight up in Colorado, but if you think he beat him straight up in Italy you are wasted. He was miles back in...
He beat him straight up in Colorado, but if you think he beat him straight up in Italy you are wasted. He was miles back in the first race and then everybody who was anybody got wiped out at he start of the last race leaving dungey to ride alone.
I wouldn't even bother Chris, it doesn't matter what you or I think, Huckster stands pretty firm on this point. Smile
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Huckster 9/27/2010 3:34am
9/27/2010 3:34am
jamma10 wrote:
I wouldn't even bother Chris, it doesn't matter what you or I think, Huckster stands pretty firm on this point. Smile
dude Dungey is the 2009 MX 1 MXDN champion and now is the 2010 champ as well. Its in the record book. I didnt make this shit up. Bad luck is part of racing. Just ask Canard and Short. Glad to see shorty come back and spank AC though.
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jamma10 9/27/2010 3:49am
9/27/2010 3:49am
jamma10 wrote:
I wouldn't even bother Chris, it doesn't matter what you or I think, Huckster stands pretty firm on this point. Smile
Huckster wrote:
dude Dungey is the 2009 MX 1 MXDN champion and now is the 2010 champ as well. Its in the record book. I didnt make this...
dude Dungey is the 2009 MX 1 MXDN champion and now is the 2010 champ as well. Its in the record book. I didnt make this shit up. Bad luck is part of racing. Just ask Canard and Short. Glad to see shorty come back and spank AC though.
He sure is, and no one is saying otherwise. Dungey rode great yesterday.

It was fun to see Desalle 'spank' Shorty at Unadilla... different day, different track, different conditions...

Congratulations though, Team USA earned it.
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mikef 9/27/2010 6:58am
9/27/2010 6:58am
Motocross83 wrote:
SX is techinally not the same sport, so while I see where you're coming from, I was purely approaching this from an MX angle. I could...
SX is techinally not the same sport, so while I see where you're coming from, I was purely approaching this from an MX angle. I could also make the argument that Tony's deep sand skills are far superior.

But Dungey hasn't seen deep sand anymore than Cairoli's seen AMA style SX.
mikef wrote:
Funny...Dungey lives and trains in the sand, and some of his best performances have been on sand tracks. Just because we don't have a sand track...
Funny...Dungey lives and trains in the sand, and some of his best performances have been on sand tracks. Just because we don't have a sand track in the national circuit anymore as rough as lommel doesn't mean we don't have them here in the states.

That arguement is just as silly as believing GP guys couldn't win on a track big jumps b\c they used to not have jumps as big as in the US nationals.

Sorry you have to listen to the idiots on here for another year, but AC deserves a lot of credit for riding with as good as he did with asthma, a (possibly) underpowered bike in the high elevations like that, and without the benefit of the team already having race settings.


Motocross83 wrote:
Do you have any sand tracks in America that are as rough as lommel yet aren't on the National circuit? I confess it's news to me...
Do you have any sand tracks in America that are as rough as lommel yet aren't on the National circuit? I confess it's news to me. It's very easy to hear people's comments about Lommel and dismiss them but believe me, it really is something else. Think along the lines of Enduro.

I'm sure Ryan has seen deep sand, just not as deep or as rough as Lommel.

Ask yourself this... Even if by some miracle there is a mini undiscovered Lommel in America somewhere, would you as a professional rider, honestly spend hours upon hours practicing in the stuff? Risking injury, not to mention putting your body through hell, and all the while knowing fully well that there isn't anything on the National circuit like it anyway?

Tony has though. He's spent hours upon hours learning the sand because it is an absolute necessity if you want to be world champion.

Dungey would beat Cairoli even more than yesterday if they got on a SX track together because Ryan's just been doing it more. The same applies to Cairoli beating Dungey at Lommel. Don't take my word for it.... Albertson has seen both ride and say's the same thing.
Nice analogy, from what I've seen of lommel it's very much like an off road race in the sand late in the day, but with jumps instead of palmetto roots. Until I ride every public and private track in the hundreds of thousands of square miles of the US covered by sand, I can't really say that. Of course, neither can you. I can however say I've ridden plenty off road stuff just as tough, so no...it wouldn't take a miracle for one to be here. Plenty of places around that if you run 30 pros over it for 45 minutes it would be similiar.

Seriously, do you really want to argue AC ability to win at just ONE track anyway??? As much as you make it sound like he practices there, this is like argueing over who would win at each others practice track.

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