Epstein list incoming today

MPJC wrote:

A few considerations: What does it mean to be "on the list"? If we're talking a "client list", then yes, that's damning. But if "the list"...

A few considerations: What does it mean to be "on the list"? If we're talking a "client list", then yes, that's damning. But if "the list" is a list of who was on his plane, that's not very damning. We need some clarity regarding what "the list" is exactly and how one gets onto it. The concept of a list seems to mean something different depending on who's talking about it and what they're trying to accomplish.

It's also entirely possible that Trump isn't implicated himself but he has some reason to protect others who are. That reason can range from them being his friends or family, to them being extremely powerful and he fears the consequences if he outs them publicly. 

There's a lot we don't know, and as bad as it looks, it's entirely possible that it's even worse - and more dangerous - than we think. 

soggy wrote:

I’ll admit to not getting into the weeds with this but I thought we already know who was on the flights. 

MPJC wrote:

I think that's right. But that doesn't stop people who want to push an agenda from being careless and referring someone having been on the plane...

I think that's right. But that doesn't stop people who want to push an agenda from being careless and referring someone having been on the plane as being "on the list". A lot of people are willing to play fast and loose with terms if it feeds their narrative. 

Another possibility is that, strictly speaking, there is no single document or rolodex that has all the names of all the people who committed crimes on it. But that doesn't mean that the authorities can't put together a list based on available evidence. I think that a lot of people are imagining that there is this one, black and white, irrefutable smoking gun sitting somewhere. That may not be the case. But it's disingenuous of the Justice Department to say that there's "no list" if such a thing doesn't exist if there's evidence from which they can make a list. If you're looking for a bank robber, you can't say that there's no evidence just because there isn't a big bag full of money with a dollar sign on it sitting somewhere. 

soggy wrote:

I’ll admit to not getting into the weeds with this but I thought we already know who was on the flights. 

MPJC wrote:

I think that's right. But that doesn't stop people who want to push an agenda from being careless and referring someone having been on the plane...

I think that's right. But that doesn't stop people who want to push an agenda from being careless and referring someone having been on the plane as being "on the list". A lot of people are willing to play fast and loose with terms if it feeds their narrative. 

Another possibility is that, strictly speaking, there is no single document or rolodex that has all the names of all the people who committed crimes on it. But that doesn't mean that the authorities can't put together a list based on available evidence. I think that a lot of people are imagining that there is this one, black and white, irrefutable smoking gun sitting somewhere. That may not be the case. But it's disingenuous of the Justice Department to say that there's "no list" if such a thing doesn't exist if there's evidence from which they can make a list. If you're looking for a bank robber, you can't say that there's no evidence just because there isn't a big bag full of money with a dollar sign on it sitting somewhere. 

soggy wrote:

Yea I’m pretty positive Theres not a piece of paper that says ‘these are all the names of people I trafficked women too’But they convicted ghislaine...

Yea I’m pretty positive Theres not a piece of paper that says ‘these are all the names of people I trafficked women too’

But they convicted ghislaine of trafficking girls and they have no idea who she trafficked them too? That’s pretty hard to fathom. 

MPJC wrote:

That Jeffro guy from that other thread about Trump (now in the dumbgeon, I believe) who kept going on about how Trump supporters are ok with...

That Jeffro guy from that other thread about Trump (now in the dumbgeon, I believe) who kept going on about how Trump supporters are ok with pedophiles needs to read this thread. 

soggy wrote:

I’ll admit to not getting into the weeds with this but I thought we already know who was on the flights. 

MPJC wrote:

I think that's right. But that doesn't stop people who want to push an agenda from being careless and referring someone having been on the plane...

I think that's right. But that doesn't stop people who want to push an agenda from being careless and referring someone having been on the plane as being "on the list". A lot of people are willing to play fast and loose with terms if it feeds their narrative. 

Another possibility is that, strictly speaking, there is no single document or rolodex that has all the names of all the people who committed crimes on it. But that doesn't mean that the authorities can't put together a list based on available evidence. I think that a lot of people are imagining that there is this one, black and white, irrefutable smoking gun sitting somewhere. That may not be the case. But it's disingenuous of the Justice Department to say that there's "no list" if such a thing doesn't exist if there's evidence from which they can make a list. If you're looking for a bank robber, you can't say that there's no evidence just because there isn't a big bag full of money with a dollar sign on it sitting somewhere. 

soggy wrote:

Yea I’m pretty positive Theres not a piece of paper that says ‘these are all the names of people I trafficked women too’But they convicted ghislaine...

Yea I’m pretty positive Theres not a piece of paper that says ‘these are all the names of people I trafficked women too’

But they convicted ghislaine of trafficking girls and they have no idea who she trafficked them too? That’s pretty hard to fathom. 

MPJC wrote:

I think that's right. But that doesn't stop people who want to push an agenda from being careless and referring someone having been on the plane...

I think that's right. But that doesn't stop people who want to push an agenda from being careless and referring someone having been on the plane as being "on the list". A lot of people are willing to play fast and loose with terms if it feeds their narrative. 

Another possibility is that, strictly speaking, there is no single document or rolodex that has all the names of all the people who committed crimes on it. But that doesn't mean that the authorities can't put together a list based on available evidence. I think that a lot of people are imagining that there is this one, black and white, irrefutable smoking gun sitting somewhere. That may not be the case. But it's disingenuous of the Justice Department to say that there's "no list" if such a thing doesn't exist if there's evidence from which they can make a list. If you're looking for a bank robber, you can't say that there's no evidence just because there isn't a big bag full of money with a dollar sign on it sitting somewhere. 

soggy wrote:

Yea I’m pretty positive Theres not a piece of paper that says ‘these are all the names of people I trafficked women too’But they convicted ghislaine...

Yea I’m pretty positive Theres not a piece of paper that says ‘these are all the names of people I trafficked women too’

But they convicted ghislaine of trafficking girls and they have no idea who she trafficked them too? That’s pretty hard to fathom. 

mvd61 wrote:

I’d be very shocked if JE didn’t have a master list. He was a very successful hedge fund manager. Dude was in charge of Les Wexner(victorias...

I’d be very shocked if JE didn’t have a master list. He was a very successful hedge fund manager. Dude was in charge of Les Wexner(victorias secret) money. I guarantee you he was very organized and had his shit together. Obviously as he skirted federal charges back in early/mid 2000s. Here’s an interesting article. Basically says after the first time he caught charges for prostitution they found his place still set up with the massage table and everything exactly like it was.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/07/09/us/jeffrey-epstein-arrest-why-now

 

MPJC wrote:

I think that's right. But that doesn't stop people who want to push an agenda from being careless and referring someone having been on the plane...

I think that's right. But that doesn't stop people who want to push an agenda from being careless and referring someone having been on the plane as being "on the list". A lot of people are willing to play fast and loose with terms if it feeds their narrative. 

Another possibility is that, strictly speaking, there is no single document or rolodex that has all the names of all the people who committed crimes on it. But that doesn't mean that the authorities can't put together a list based on available evidence. I think that a lot of people are imagining that there is this one, black and white, irrefutable smoking gun sitting somewhere. That may not be the case. But it's disingenuous of the Justice Department to say that there's "no list" if such a thing doesn't exist if there's evidence from which they can make a list. If you're looking for a bank robber, you can't say that there's no evidence just because there isn't a big bag full of money with a dollar sign on it sitting somewhere. 

soggy wrote:

Yea I’m pretty positive Theres not a piece of paper that says ‘these are all the names of people I trafficked women too’But they convicted ghislaine...

Yea I’m pretty positive Theres not a piece of paper that says ‘these are all the names of people I trafficked women too’

But they convicted ghislaine of trafficking girls and they have no idea who she trafficked them too? That’s pretty hard to fathom. 

MPJC wrote:

Indeed. I want' to be clear that I'm not sticking up for Trump. If the Justice Department knows who's committed sex crimes against minors and they're burying...

Indeed. 

I want' to be clear that I'm not sticking up for Trump. If the Justice Department knows who's committed sex crimes against minors and they're burying it and Trump knows that, then that's a moral failure and a failure of leadership. If Trump is, in fact, guilty himself, then he should be thrown out of office and subject to the same prosecution as anyone else. It's disgusting and intolerable. 

soggy wrote:

You’d have to be so incredibly stupid to be doing what he was and have a ‘master list’ of who he was doing it for. The...

You’d have to be so incredibly stupid to be doing what he was and have a ‘master list’ of who he was doing it for. The first rule of doing crime is don’t have /get rid of evidence of said crimes. That said I’m sure there are dots that could be connected and you could figure out who was involved. But to think he had a list of all the people involved seems crazy and honestly reminds me of a cartoon storyline from looney tunes or some shit. 

MPJC wrote:

That Jeffro guy from that other thread about Trump (now in the dumbgeon, I believe) who kept going on about how Trump supporters are ok with...

That Jeffro guy from that other thread about Trump (now in the dumbgeon, I believe) who kept going on about how Trump supporters are ok with pedophiles needs to read this thread. 

TheGreat wrote:

why, MAGA is clearly OK with pedophiles. you voted for one multiple times. 

akillerwombat wrote:

Don't forget how long Trump hounded Obama to show his birth certificate.

Dude is a massive piece of shit.

soggy wrote:

You’d have to be so incredibly stupid to be doing what he was and have a ‘master list’ of who he was doing it for. The...

You’d have to be so incredibly stupid to be doing what he was and have a ‘master list’ of who he was doing it for. The first rule of doing crime is don’t have /get rid of evidence of said crimes. That said I’m sure there are dots that could be connected and you could figure out who was involved. But to think he had a list of all the people involved seems crazy and honestly reminds me of a cartoon storyline from looney tunes or some shit. 

Spurdo wrote:

Real question - how do you do gather intelligence (blackmail) societies 'elite' and Politicians on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean without having some sort of...

Real question - how do you do gather intelligence (blackmail) societies 'elite' and Politicians on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean without having some sort of physical "evidence" against them? Seems to me, you couldnt. 

Loam Ranger wrote:

"I was Donald’s closest friend for ten years."
Jeffrey Epstein

MPJC wrote:

This is stupid. What's more plausible: Trump voters are OK with pedophiles or they don't believe that Trump is one (or at the very least they...

This is stupid. What's more plausible: Trump voters are OK with pedophiles or they don't believe that Trump is one (or at the very least they didn't when they voted for him)? 

As things stand now, there isn't compelling reason to believe that Trump was involved in illicit activity involving minors with Epstein. If there is, please show it to the rest of us. There's cause for concern and suspicion with recent developments, but that doesn't warrant a claim that he's guilty. 

If it turns out that Trump is a pedophile, as you can see in this thread, there are people who voted for Trump who would want to see him prosecuted if he is implicated. Clearly, such people aren't OK with pedophiles. 

Your use of the word "you"  implies that you think I'm MAGA and voted for Trump. I'm not. I couldn't have voted for him because I'm not an American. There are Trump supporters who are nutjobs - just like there are Democrats who are nutjobs -  but a lot of Trump voters are good people who don't deserve what you're accusing them of. 

Loam Ranger wrote:

"I was Donald’s closest friend for ten years."
Jeffrey Epstein

MPJC wrote:

Did Donald know that?I get the impression he liked to play up his friendship with Trump to try to convince prosecutors that it would be futile...

Did Donald know that?

I get the impression he liked to play up his friendship with Trump to try to convince prosecutors that it would be futile to go after him. 

akillerwombat wrote:

For what it's worth, "I didn't vote for the man, I voted for what he said he was going to do for America", has...

For what it's worth, "I didn't vote for the man, I voted for what he said he was going to do for America", has been a staple phrase used by Trump supporters to defend Trump countless times over the years when it came to all of his blatantly obvious moral and character flaws. This is in no way me saying, "Trump supporters are OK with pedophiles", but they certainly haven't done themselves (or Trump) any favors by defending his many other reprehensible actions and behaviors... sort of like a reverse (or inverted?) "Boy who cries wolf" situation.

Loam Ranger wrote:

"I was Donald’s closest friend for ten years."
Jeffrey Epstein

MPJC wrote:

Did Donald know that?I get the impression he liked to play up his friendship with Trump to try to convince prosecutors that it would be futile...

Did Donald know that?

I get the impression he liked to play up his friendship with Trump to try to convince prosecutors that it would be futile to go after him. 

Loam Ranger wrote:

There's enough evidence to suggest they were friends, whether that meant they were indeed 'best' friends, who knows.In 2002 Trump said of Epstein: "I've known Jeff...

There's enough evidence to suggest they were friends, whether that meant they were indeed 'best' friends, who knows.

In 2002 Trump said of Epstein: "I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy... He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it - Jeffrey enjoys his social life."

After Epstein was arrested Trump changed his tune. "I was not a fan of his, that I can tell you,".

 

MPJC wrote:

This is stupid. What's more plausible: Trump voters are OK with pedophiles or they don't believe that Trump is one (or at the very least they...

This is stupid. What's more plausible: Trump voters are OK with pedophiles or they don't believe that Trump is one (or at the very least they didn't when they voted for him)? 

As things stand now, there isn't compelling reason to believe that Trump was involved in illicit activity involving minors with Epstein. If there is, please show it to the rest of us. There's cause for concern and suspicion with recent developments, but that doesn't warrant a claim that he's guilty. 

If it turns out that Trump is a pedophile, as you can see in this thread, there are people who voted for Trump who would want to see him prosecuted if he is implicated. Clearly, such people aren't OK with pedophiles. 

Your use of the word "you"  implies that you think I'm MAGA and voted for Trump. I'm not. I couldn't have voted for him because I'm not an American. There are Trump supporters who are nutjobs - just like there are Democrats who are nutjobs -  but a lot of Trump voters are good people who don't deserve what you're accusing them of. 

akillerwombat wrote:

For what it's worth, "I didn't vote for the man, I voted for what he said he was going to do for America", has...

For what it's worth, "I didn't vote for the man, I voted for what he said he was going to do for America", has been a staple phrase used by Trump supporters to defend Trump countless times over the years when it came to all of his blatantly obvious moral and character flaws. This is in no way me saying, "Trump supporters are OK with pedophiles", but they certainly haven't done themselves (or Trump) any favors by defending his many other reprehensible actions and behaviors... sort of like a reverse (or inverted?) "Boy who cries wolf" situation.

MPJC wrote:

This is stupid. What's more plausible: Trump voters are OK with pedophiles or they don't believe that Trump is one (or at the very least they...

This is stupid. What's more plausible: Trump voters are OK with pedophiles or they don't believe that Trump is one (or at the very least they didn't when they voted for him)? 

As things stand now, there isn't compelling reason to believe that Trump was involved in illicit activity involving minors with Epstein. If there is, please show it to the rest of us. There's cause for concern and suspicion with recent developments, but that doesn't warrant a claim that he's guilty. 

If it turns out that Trump is a pedophile, as you can see in this thread, there are people who voted for Trump who would want to see him prosecuted if he is implicated. Clearly, such people aren't OK with pedophiles. 

Your use of the word "you"  implies that you think I'm MAGA and voted for Trump. I'm not. I couldn't have voted for him because I'm not an American. There are Trump supporters who are nutjobs - just like there are Democrats who are nutjobs -  but a lot of Trump voters are good people who don't deserve what you're accusing them of. 

akillerwombat wrote:

For what it's worth, "I didn't vote for the man, I voted for what he said he was going to do for America", has...

For what it's worth, "I didn't vote for the man, I voted for what he said he was going to do for America", has been a staple phrase used by Trump supporters to defend Trump countless times over the years when it came to all of his blatantly obvious moral and character flaws. This is in no way me saying, "Trump supporters are OK with pedophiles", but they certainly haven't done themselves (or Trump) any favors by defending his many other reprehensible actions and behaviors... sort of like a reverse (or inverted?) "Boy who cries wolf" situation.

MPJC wrote:

That seems to be the reality of politics. I don't know that Trump is  actually more flawed than past presidents - he just doesn't care to...

That seems to be the reality of politics. I don't know that Trump is  actually more flawed than past presidents - he just doesn't care to hide it. 

People don't generally want to admit how flexible their principles are. Here in Canada, before the election in 2019 a picture of Justin Trudeau in blackface was made public. Now these Liberal party supporters are generally people who would scream bloody murder and insist that any conservative that wore blackface be expelled and ostracized from politics. But they nevertheless were defending Trudeau. I was disappointed but not terribly surprised (I thought Trudeau should have been out on his ass). People are extraordinarily good at rationalizing whatever it is they happen to want. People often have this conception of themselves as starting with principles and then deciding what to do or believe based on these principles. In reality, that's not how people typically operate. We start with wants, desires, and preferences and find reasons that support fulfilling them. We don't like to admit that about ourselves. It's, of course, always "other people" who are unprincipled and it's me who's noble and principled. No, we just bullshit ourselves into believing that we're somehow better than we really are. So yes, people who liked what Trump wanted to do politically rationalized voting for him despite his rather obvious flaws. But that doesn't make them unique or worse. We all do it. We just don't recognize it in ourselves and people with whom we agree. 

akillerwombat wrote:

For what it's worth, "I didn't vote for the man, I voted for what he said he was going to do for America", has...

For what it's worth, "I didn't vote for the man, I voted for what he said he was going to do for America", has been a staple phrase used by Trump supporters to defend Trump countless times over the years when it came to all of his blatantly obvious moral and character flaws. This is in no way me saying, "Trump supporters are OK with pedophiles", but they certainly haven't done themselves (or Trump) any favors by defending his many other reprehensible actions and behaviors... sort of like a reverse (or inverted?) "Boy who cries wolf" situation.

MPJC wrote:

That seems to be the reality of politics. I don't know that Trump is  actually more flawed than past presidents - he just doesn't care to...

That seems to be the reality of politics. I don't know that Trump is  actually more flawed than past presidents - he just doesn't care to hide it. 

People don't generally want to admit how flexible their principles are. Here in Canada, before the election in 2019 a picture of Justin Trudeau in blackface was made public. Now these Liberal party supporters are generally people who would scream bloody murder and insist that any conservative that wore blackface be expelled and ostracized from politics. But they nevertheless were defending Trudeau. I was disappointed but not terribly surprised (I thought Trudeau should have been out on his ass). People are extraordinarily good at rationalizing whatever it is they happen to want. People often have this conception of themselves as starting with principles and then deciding what to do or believe based on these principles. In reality, that's not how people typically operate. We start with wants, desires, and preferences and find reasons that support fulfilling them. We don't like to admit that about ourselves. It's, of course, always "other people" who are unprincipled and it's me who's noble and principled. No, we just bullshit ourselves into believing that we're somehow better than we really are. So yes, people who liked what Trump wanted to do politically rationalized voting for him despite his rather obvious flaws. But that doesn't make them unique or worse. We all do it. We just don't recognize it in ourselves and people with whom we agree. 

soggy wrote:

Did you just claim trump admits he has flaws cause all the evidence would point to the contrary. Perhaps I misunderstood

MPJC wrote:

That seems to be the reality of politics. I don't know that Trump is  actually more flawed than past presidents - he just doesn't care to...

That seems to be the reality of politics. I don't know that Trump is  actually more flawed than past presidents - he just doesn't care to hide it. 

People don't generally want to admit how flexible their principles are. Here in Canada, before the election in 2019 a picture of Justin Trudeau in blackface was made public. Now these Liberal party supporters are generally people who would scream bloody murder and insist that any conservative that wore blackface be expelled and ostracized from politics. But they nevertheless were defending Trudeau. I was disappointed but not terribly surprised (I thought Trudeau should have been out on his ass). People are extraordinarily good at rationalizing whatever it is they happen to want. People often have this conception of themselves as starting with principles and then deciding what to do or believe based on these principles. In reality, that's not how people typically operate. We start with wants, desires, and preferences and find reasons that support fulfilling them. We don't like to admit that about ourselves. It's, of course, always "other people" who are unprincipled and it's me who's noble and principled. No, we just bullshit ourselves into believing that we're somehow better than we really are. So yes, people who liked what Trump wanted to do politically rationalized voting for him despite his rather obvious flaws. But that doesn't make them unique or worse. We all do it. We just don't recognize it in ourselves and people with whom we agree. 

soggy wrote:

Did you just claim trump admits he has flaws cause all the evidence would point to the contrary. Perhaps I misunderstood

MPJC wrote:

I don't know if he sees himself as flawed or not. But he exhibits characteristics that he must know other people will take to be flaws...

I don't know if he sees himself as flawed or not. But he exhibits characteristics that he must know other people will take to be flaws (crassness, boastfulness, making shit up when it suits him - the list can go on and on) without any regard for any disapprobation that might come his way over it. Other presidents have made efforts to keep their flaws well out of public view. Nobody had ever tried just not giving a shit before because they assumed that it would be disastrous politically. But here we are.   

MPJC wrote:

That seems to be the reality of politics. I don't know that Trump is  actually more flawed than past presidents - he just doesn't care to...

That seems to be the reality of politics. I don't know that Trump is  actually more flawed than past presidents - he just doesn't care to hide it. 

People don't generally want to admit how flexible their principles are. Here in Canada, before the election in 2019 a picture of Justin Trudeau in blackface was made public. Now these Liberal party supporters are generally people who would scream bloody murder and insist that any conservative that wore blackface be expelled and ostracized from politics. But they nevertheless were defending Trudeau. I was disappointed but not terribly surprised (I thought Trudeau should have been out on his ass). People are extraordinarily good at rationalizing whatever it is they happen to want. People often have this conception of themselves as starting with principles and then deciding what to do or believe based on these principles. In reality, that's not how people typically operate. We start with wants, desires, and preferences and find reasons that support fulfilling them. We don't like to admit that about ourselves. It's, of course, always "other people" who are unprincipled and it's me who's noble and principled. No, we just bullshit ourselves into believing that we're somehow better than we really are. So yes, people who liked what Trump wanted to do politically rationalized voting for him despite his rather obvious flaws. But that doesn't make them unique or worse. We all do it. We just don't recognize it in ourselves and people with whom we agree. 

MPJC wrote:

That seems to be the reality of politics. I don't know that Trump is  actually more flawed than past presidents - he just doesn't care to...

That seems to be the reality of politics. I don't know that Trump is  actually more flawed than past presidents - he just doesn't care to hide it. 

People don't generally want to admit how flexible their principles are. Here in Canada, before the election in 2019 a picture of Justin Trudeau in blackface was made public. Now these Liberal party supporters are generally people who would scream bloody murder and insist that any conservative that wore blackface be expelled and ostracized from politics. But they nevertheless were defending Trudeau. I was disappointed but not terribly surprised (I thought Trudeau should have been out on his ass). People are extraordinarily good at rationalizing whatever it is they happen to want. People often have this conception of themselves as starting with principles and then deciding what to do or believe based on these principles. In reality, that's not how people typically operate. We start with wants, desires, and preferences and find reasons that support fulfilling them. We don't like to admit that about ourselves. It's, of course, always "other people" who are unprincipled and it's me who's noble and principled. No, we just bullshit ourselves into believing that we're somehow better than we really are. So yes, people who liked what Trump wanted to do politically rationalized voting for him despite his rather obvious flaws. But that doesn't make them unique or worse. We all do it. We just don't recognize it in ourselves and people with whom we agree. 

akillerwombat wrote:

100%, homie. That is without a doubt the reality of politics... sadly. I fucking hate it. So much.That said, my response wasn't intended to open the...

100%, homie. That is without a doubt the reality of politics... sadly. I fucking hate it. So much.

That said, my response wasn't intended to open the doors of "whataboutisms" to draw a comparison as to how well or poorly Trumps flaws line up with past presidents a we a) don't know the extent of his flaws b) we don't know all the previous presidents flaws and c) personally, I find nothing constructive in whataboutisms when attempting to hold someone accountable for their own actions.

My post was merely to point out that while yes, it is a big jump from Trumps well documented flaws to being a pedophile, peoples near eager level of willingness to dismiss his (again) well documented moral and character flaws combined with the fact they he and Epstein were "buddies", his name was on the flight logs, the flipping on the "is there a list / there isn't a list", his previous sexual indiscretions, his previous sexual lawsuits, and his proclivity to despair women at every turn (usually in a sexual context) doesn't sit well with me.

And again, I'm not saying he's a pedophile, but I feel like there is enough red string on the wall of evidence to make even the dumbest detective go, "wait a second, maybe we should look into this". But, this then brings us back to your opening statement, "this seems to be the reality of politics", which is why I hate it so fucking much.

MPJC wrote:

That Jeffro guy from that other thread about Trump (now in the dumbgeon, I believe) who kept going on about how Trump supporters are ok with...

That Jeffro guy from that other thread about Trump (now in the dumbgeon, I believe) who kept going on about how Trump supporters are ok with pedophiles needs to read this thread. 

TheGreat wrote:

why, MAGA is clearly OK with pedophiles. you voted for one multiple times. 

MPJC wrote:

That seems to be the reality of politics. I don't know that Trump is  actually more flawed than past presidents - he just doesn't care to...

That seems to be the reality of politics. I don't know that Trump is  actually more flawed than past presidents - he just doesn't care to hide it. 

People don't generally want to admit how flexible their principles are. Here in Canada, before the election in 2019 a picture of Justin Trudeau in blackface was made public. Now these Liberal party supporters are generally people who would scream bloody murder and insist that any conservative that wore blackface be expelled and ostracized from politics. But they nevertheless were defending Trudeau. I was disappointed but not terribly surprised (I thought Trudeau should have been out on his ass). People are extraordinarily good at rationalizing whatever it is they happen to want. People often have this conception of themselves as starting with principles and then deciding what to do or believe based on these principles. In reality, that's not how people typically operate. We start with wants, desires, and preferences and find reasons that support fulfilling them. We don't like to admit that about ourselves. It's, of course, always "other people" who are unprincipled and it's me who's noble and principled. No, we just bullshit ourselves into believing that we're somehow better than we really are. So yes, people who liked what Trump wanted to do politically rationalized voting for him despite his rather obvious flaws. But that doesn't make them unique or worse. We all do it. We just don't recognize it in ourselves and people with whom we agree. 

akillerwombat wrote:

100%, homie. That is without a doubt the reality of politics... sadly. I fucking hate it. So much.That said, my response wasn't intended to open the...

100%, homie. That is without a doubt the reality of politics... sadly. I fucking hate it. So much.

That said, my response wasn't intended to open the doors of "whataboutisms" to draw a comparison as to how well or poorly Trumps flaws line up with past presidents a we a) don't know the extent of his flaws b) we don't know all the previous presidents flaws and c) personally, I find nothing constructive in whataboutisms when attempting to hold someone accountable for their own actions.

My post was merely to point out that while yes, it is a big jump from Trumps well documented flaws to being a pedophile, peoples near eager level of willingness to dismiss his (again) well documented moral and character flaws combined with the fact they he and Epstein were "buddies", his name was on the flight logs, the flipping on the "is there a list / there isn't a list", his previous sexual indiscretions, his previous sexual lawsuits, and his proclivity to despair women at every turn (usually in a sexual context) doesn't sit well with me.

And again, I'm not saying he's a pedophile, but I feel like there is enough red string on the wall of evidence to make even the dumbest detective go, "wait a second, maybe we should look into this". But, this then brings us back to your opening statement, "this seems to be the reality of politics", which is why I hate it so fucking much.

lappedrider wrote:

Whether guilty of the crimes himself, or just hiding the crimes of others, in this situation there is no difference.  Absolutely reprehensible, and there is no...

Whether guilty of the crimes himself, or just hiding the crimes of others, in this situation there is no difference.  Absolutely reprehensible, and there is no coming back.  I am done with all things President Trump.  What little hope I had left is gone forever.