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Nobody doubts there are lovely people in dire straits in the Ukraine, same old story isn't it. We have lovely people in this country under daily threats of violence too. But the nation of Ukraine, despite the heritage and culture, has a history of corruption and harsh cruelty to it's own people. Nobody ever planned a vacation there and Disney doesn't plan to build a park there post war. Perhaps you are right, calling it a shithole may be harsh and not fair to it's citizens, but the unanswered billions we've sent there - with the expectations it never ends, alters my opinion vastly. Who do you think Ukraine expects to pay for it's rebuilding?
It has a history of Soviet cruelty towards it. Stalin killed millions. My ancestors fled that cruelty. As far as the vacation and Disney comment, that’s just asinine. That’s the measure of a people’s value?
The U.S., among other, has sent billions - mostly in military equipment - so that the U.S. could have its proxy war with Russia. Trump wants to stop this, as he should. I’m sure the Ukrainian people would love to be in a position to rebuild, and to do it themselves. I’m sure they’d appreciate help to get that started (and not indefinite support - they should be expected to stand on their own two feet, and I’m sure they’d expect that of themselves). You’re entitled to your “fuck them” attitude, and I’m entitled to find it disappointing (I’m sure you are a nice enough guy, but I’m not with you on this).
I read the Disney comment as a comic commentary.
I, personally, have always seen Ukraine as very Russian or, if you will, in the last century…as “Russia-lite”. That’s not a joke. Culturally, that’s how it’s come across, to me.
All the while, post Gorbachev, I see and acknowledge a free and independent Ukraine…which, btw, my country has done its best to fuck up for our own imperialist reasons.
Also, the British, my country and the NATO member that have gone along with the last 30 years of “Fucking Ukraine” should ALL have to “put in on this” at a fairly painful rate.
Why? Because, the truth…the real history…is folly…and the intent is…& was…criminal…from where I’m standing.
But, I digress.
Mea Culpa.
The Ukrainian people very much want their own identity and to go their own way, independent of Russia. Putin doesn’t much care for that.
Like many other places in the world, the people suffer while some asshole politicians, many in other countries, treat them as pawns in a game.
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We have a little Ukrainian population around here and also get some tourists of Ukrainian decent. If you ask one of them why they aren't going over there to fight for their people. The most common answer in a nutshell is always... The country is controlled by organized crime factions - even by Russian Mafia Putin associates in some areas. Also it's the main reason a lot of them came to the States in the first place for a better life.
I’ll add, Russia invaded Ukraine so if the world was fair - and I realize it’s not - Russia would pay to rebuild Ukraine.
The line between Russian mafia and Russian government is a pretty blurry one. No doubt, there are Ukrainian criminals willing to exploit their own people too. I never said the place didn’t have problems, some its own making.
NATO countries came to the defense of the US when it was attacked on 911, attacks motivated by the US meddling in the middle east.
I never even read your post. I was just replying to what he said. Sorry.
But yeah it is a blurry one - even listening to interviews of green badges/CIA & contractors that went over there during the Crimea invasion to help the Ukraine. They had a lot to say about that type of stuff too and the group factions fighting for power. There's even neo-nazi groups over there. It's pretty crazy. We are lucky to live where we do.
We are tied pretty much in fantasy now lol. Kitchen killed me last night. I have 994 points and you have 993 You are doing good and moving up.
Indy next week will be a harder round with the shootout. I'm thinking I may put my budget mainly into the 450 class I'm not sure yet.
Nothing to apologize for. I just sort of assumed you were part of the whole conversation. All good.
It has been and will continue to rebuild the parts it controls.
I also picked Kitchen, lesson learned, don't pick PC riders!
Yes lol the PC Curse.
Uh, Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the the planet. Always has been and always will.
Which is why it quickly fell in with the biden crime family.
And thus, the entire situation we find ourselves mired in.
China will be a shriveled up image of itself by 2035. Do a little research on China demographics. They are toast and all by their own doing. Russia too. The US will be in pretty good shape because of immigration. Legal and otherwise.
Let's not kid ourselves.....the U.S. is riddled with corruption too.
....but how we doing today....any little people need to be tossed again?
Pit Row
Half of Ukraine is Russians. These Russians, Speak Russian, practise Russian religion, and two previous leaders of Russia ( Krutchev, Brezhnev), communist hardliners were born in the Ukraine. Zelensky wants no Russian speaking, or Russian religion in The Ukraine.
Is there corruption in Ukraine? Probably. Is there a straight causal line from that to Putin invading Ukraine? Probably not. I suspect Putin has some culpability. Just maybe.
I’ve already stated my displeasure with how Biden handled the situation. I don’t have a problem granting that his actions or inactions may have, in some way, contributed to Putin’s decision to invade. But ultimately Putin decided to invade and bears culpability.
I’ll try to make this clear with an analogy. Suppose your weakness or negligence allowed someone to rob you (let’s say you left valuables visible in your car in a bad part of town and someone broke in and stole them). We might think you’re stupid or should have known better, but we don’t then put the blame on you for the robbery - the robber is still culpable, no matter how stupid you are. At the end of the day, Putin invaded another sovereign country, whatever that country’s failings or whatever role Joe Biden played in making the invasion appealing to Putin, Putin is the aggressor and bears ultimate responsibility.
This isn’t like a situation where two people agree to fight over something and the loser needs to agree to cede to the victor’s terms. This is more like a situation where you’re being assaulted and robbed. Imagine the police blaming you and saying “well, you lost this fight so too bad for you, he gets your wallet”. In this situation, to say that would be insane, and whatever moral failings you have are a red herring. That’s exactly what some people are doing in this thread by ignoring Putin’s culpability and focusing on either Ukraine’s failings or their status as “loser” in the war.
I’m not saying that Trump is wrong to negotiate with Putin and make concessions to end the war. Quite to the contrary. I hope Trump gets it done. I’m a realist. The world isn’t fair or just. Trump seems to get that and he seems prepared to make tough decisions to achieve peace. Some of those outcomes might reward Putin, which may be unfair but if that’s necessary to stop the war, then fairness may have to be put aside. But that doesn’t mean we should compound the unfairness with our judgements. To say about Ukraine that their (and others’) corruption makes them, not Putin, culpable is a terrible error in moral reasoning. I can grant everything you’re saying about Ukraine and still hold that Putin is the bad guy here.
Wait. Probably? I didn’t misspeak. Ukraine is corrupt as they come it’s not even a secret.
In all I said, that’s what you’re focused on?
I give up.
Imagine this.... another Commiewood C-list actor trying to remain relevant. He's only known for one of the best movies trilogies in history (yes only ep 4,5 and 6)....even if he's a horrible actor. I'd say just shut up and act, but his agent isn't even calling him anymore.
The TDS is strong in this one.....
On that note..... I freaking hate Disney for what they did to the Star Wars universe....
The Disney quote friend is a remark that nobody goes to Ukraine for fun, that is all. During both world wars I believe and a civil war they had history shows Ukrainians slayed, butchered, tortured, raped, and persecuted German, Slavic, and Russian ethnic descendendants amongst each other along with Jewish descendants and other wholesale atrocities Ukrainians are known to commit against each other. There was more than a few Ukranians who aligned with Nazis who slayed Jewish citizens during WW2, along with continued rumored Nazi sympathizers even now in Ukraine which is conventional wisdom. Ethnic Russians are still rumored to be persecuted, denied voting, property, education, and employment rights. This is not to mention numerous mentions of corruption and malfeasance of the powers that be in the country that are endless. I do not live there, this is documentation and literature, perhaps not so extreme or perhaps more. But enough to be written about by somebody. Again, sure there are lovely people there, mothers and fathers who love their families, but this country is not Virginia Beach by a long shot. As Americans we often assume people in other countries cultures are humane like ours (as if ours really is) that is often not the case.
How different is that than the USA's citizens being forced to send billions to the Ukraine? We have homeless veterans, single moms, disabled, seniors of our own doing without while Ukraine gets a blank unaccountable, unending check. And bullshit on the rebuilding MPJC, who do you think is going to rebuild them? France? Japan? OK they want to pay for it, but you know they can't. You know who they expect to pay for that, my grand kids and yours. Zelensky gives not one shit about the damage, he knows the USA will one way or another eventually pay for it. He doesn't even give a shit about his own soldiers, he dodged his own country's draft.
He dodged his own country's draft you say...
Monsters and Nazis. Who have I heard describing Ukrainians that way? Can’t quite put my finger on it. But I’m sure he’s completely trustworthy.
I think I’m done with the non moto section of Vital. If I want to listen to Putin, I’ll do that elsewhere.
The force is gone. Luke did switch to the Dark side. 😎
This thread is a riot…anyone who isn’t 100% in support of dumping money into corrupt Ukraine is a Russian propagandist…straight comedy…while the same people who are 100% in support of dumping money into Ukraine, don’t want to support Israel…facepalms…facepalms everywhere…
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