GNCC Opener Big Buck

AMetts
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2/20/2025 5:03am
tmx860 wrote:
Why is it that XC2 guys did so well? Last year, two XC2 guys won an overall. This weekend's West Hare Scrambles had 250 Pros beating...

Why is it that XC2 guys did so well? Last year, two XC2 guys won an overall. This weekend's West Hare Scrambles had 250 Pros beating 450s too (but not for the overall win)

agn5008 wrote:
I think it just shows how good the 250 bikes are. Especially when the conditions get treacherous and all that torque isn’t needed. I’d expect the...

I think it just shows how good the 250 bikes are. Especially when the conditions get treacherous and all that torque isn’t needed. I’d expect the results to look a bit more normal at the next round in Florida, where the track is more wide open and sandy. 

Certainly a mud race they have an advantage XC2 starts a minute behind XC1 they don't have to figure out the lines that first lap, pick a different line than the one someone is stuck in or follow the guy that made it through smoothly. 

Also 250s just don't get as hot as the 450s, that mud was like glue basically insulated the motors and radiators you get stuck in a mudhole for 20 seconds every few minutes then the coolant boils out of it then your just biding time at that point. 

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wrc777
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2/20/2025 5:12am
sam hain wrote:
Why anyone wants to race in that shit and trash their bike is beyond me. As a land owner is mind boggling why anyone would want...

Why anyone wants to race in that shit and trash their bike is beyond me. As a land owner is mind boggling why anyone would want their property completely destroyed. 

agn5008 wrote:
No one was wishing for a mudder. Just like in mx, you can’t predict the weather.  It’s a lot of money for the land owners. I’m pretty...

No one was wishing for a mudder. Just like in mx, you can’t predict the weather. 
 

It’s a lot of money for the land owners. I’m pretty sure they get 100% of the gate entry fees. For example, Ironman had over 16,000 spectators last year. Entry fees start at $20 for kids and $40 for adults for one day and go up if you’re attending multiple days. If every single person entering Ironman was a child 12 or under they would’ve pulled in $320k in admission fees. Realistically, I bet they pulled in $850k to a million just to rent out the track. When the race is over, the GNCC crew does an amazing job fixing the property and cleaning up. I’d do it in a heartbeat if I had enough property. 

EAmato88 wrote:

They do NOT get 100% of the gate fee, its actually much less than that.....

I have also heard the land owners don't get much.

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sandman768
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2/20/2025 5:18am

I would not want to be on a 450 in those conditions! Did Unadilla owners & Mx sports have a falling out over the repair reclaiming the trails? 

Marty1028
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2/20/2025 5:18am

It blows my mind that people actually pay money to do this.

Huh? Dont you follow the local XC scene?

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The Shop

wrc777
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2/20/2025 5:23am

It blows my mind that people actually pay money to do this.

Weather like that definitely hurts turn out. They usually have so many people at the first and last round that they split the AM race into two. They didn't on Sunday. Looks like about ~370 riders in the AM race this year. Last year was 770 between the two AM races.

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2/20/2025 5:30am

It blows my mind that people actually pay money to do this.

LungButter wrote:

More people than show up to 99% of moto races. 

Off road is on the upswing while local moto slowly kills itself off. 

More entries at hare scramble races than moto these days by far. More track time, day is shorter, not waiting 5 hours in between 4 lap races. Show...

More entries at hare scramble races than moto these days by far. 

More track time, day is shorter, not waiting 5 hours in between 4 lap races. 

Show up, get ready, race, leave.

I get the appeal of off road in general, but I just don’t understand the appeal of racing in conditions like that.  I have two friends that were there that both blew up bikes.  Now they’re in a panic to secure the thousands of dollars worth of parts and labor they need to get ready for the next race.  With the exception of a national, most motocross promoters would cancel and reschedule the event for another day if the conditions were that bad.  I guarantee the industry loves the popularity of a sport that requires a full engine rebuild every weekend.

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3strokemx
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2/20/2025 5:40am

Nice video, thanks for sharing.   Good to see Off Road Viking resurrected!

AMetts
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2/20/2025 5:46am

On The Pipe gets the best footage, really hard to get around these tracks to catch the guys coming through different sections at the right time. 

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2/20/2025 5:56am
LungButter wrote:

More people than show up to 99% of moto races. 

Off road is on the upswing while local moto slowly kills itself off. 

More entries at hare scramble races than moto these days by far. More track time, day is shorter, not waiting 5 hours in between 4 lap races. Show...

More entries at hare scramble races than moto these days by far. 

More track time, day is shorter, not waiting 5 hours in between 4 lap races. 

Show up, get ready, race, leave.

I get the appeal of off road in general, but I just don’t understand the appeal of racing in conditions like that.  I have two friends...

I get the appeal of off road in general, but I just don’t understand the appeal of racing in conditions like that.  I have two friends that were there that both blew up bikes.  Now they’re in a panic to secure the thousands of dollars worth of parts and labor they need to get ready for the next race.  With the exception of a national, most motocross promoters would cancel and reschedule the event for another day if the conditions were that bad.  I guarantee the industry loves the popularity of a sport that requires a full engine rebuild every weekend.

GNCC is essentially the pro motocross counterpart for the off-road world. These races can't be rescheduled for another fun weekend at your local track. Do we see Pro motocross or supercross cancelling muddy races very often? 

Also, were the conditions at fault for your friends bikes? or poor maintenance in general? I'm willing to bet the experts/pros put a 10x worse beating on their bikes than your buddies did.

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2/20/2025 5:59am
Nairb#70 wrote:

Seems like Toth and Kelly have been at it forever.

LungButter wrote:
NE riders are kinda quietly dominating East Coast Off Road for a few years now.Johnny G. is an old man too 🤣Did I read this T-Rex...

NE riders are kinda quietly dominating East Coast Off Road for a few years now.

Johnny G. is an old man too 🤣

Did I read this T-Rex kid is from Connecticut originally?

Nairb#70 wrote:
They grew up racing in N.E.T.R.A hare scrambles and now J Day off road. Conditions aren't far from that Big Buck on a regular basis in...

They grew up racing in N.E.T.R.A hare scrambles and now J Day off road. Conditions aren't far from that Big Buck on a regular basis in New England. Yes Defeo is from CT and so is Toth. Girrior is from Southwick which borders CT, Kelly is also from the area.

Mike Pugrab from CT had some pretty good support from KTM and was riding and training with David Knight in the mid-2000’s. He was a pro mx’er that had some serious skills in the woods. He fizzled out too fast, a coulda/woulda/shoulda kind of guy. 

Toth, Kelley and Johnny G are New England legends at this point. Those guys are animals in the woods 

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BoxcarWilly
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2/20/2025 6:20am

Love racing mudders like this. Separates the boys from the men. Sometimes the men end up being 18 year old Nick DeFeo 😆

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2/20/2025 6:24am Edited Date/Time 2/20/2025 6:27am
More entries at hare scramble races than moto these days by far. More track time, day is shorter, not waiting 5 hours in between 4 lap races. Show...

More entries at hare scramble races than moto these days by far. 

More track time, day is shorter, not waiting 5 hours in between 4 lap races. 

Show up, get ready, race, leave.

I get the appeal of off road in general, but I just don’t understand the appeal of racing in conditions like that.  I have two friends...

I get the appeal of off road in general, but I just don’t understand the appeal of racing in conditions like that.  I have two friends that were there that both blew up bikes.  Now they’re in a panic to secure the thousands of dollars worth of parts and labor they need to get ready for the next race.  With the exception of a national, most motocross promoters would cancel and reschedule the event for another day if the conditions were that bad.  I guarantee the industry loves the popularity of a sport that requires a full engine rebuild every weekend.

GNCC is essentially the pro motocross counterpart for the off-road world. These races can't be rescheduled for another fun weekend at your local track. Do we...

GNCC is essentially the pro motocross counterpart for the off-road world. These races can't be rescheduled for another fun weekend at your local track. Do we see Pro motocross or supercross cancelling muddy races very often? 

Also, were the conditions at fault for your friends bikes? or poor maintenance in general? I'm willing to bet the experts/pros put a 10x worse beating on their bikes than your buddies did.

For the pros that don’t pay for anything out of their own pocket, I get it.  Same for pro motocross or Supercross.  I just can’t understand how the average amateur woods rider can A justify the expense of doing that to your bike, and B get enjoyment from slogging through deep, sticky mud for 2 or 3 hours.  As for the reasons for the blown up bikes, kinda hard to keep air flowing through your radiators when they are packed full of mud.  Plenty of pro riders blew up bikes last weekend, too.  My buddies race A class, so they get around quite well.

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3strokemx
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2/20/2025 6:27am
For the pros that don’t pay for anything out of their own pocket, I get it.  Same for pro motocross or Supercross.  I just can’t understand...

For the pros that don’t pay for anything out of their own pocket, I get it.  Same for pro motocross or Supercross.  I just can’t understand how the average amateur woods rider can A justify the expense of doing that to your bike, and B get enjoyment from slogging through deep, sticky mud for 2 or 3 hours.  As for the reasons for the blown up bikes, kinda hard to keep air flowing through your radiators when they are packed full of mud.  Plenty of pro riders blew up bikes last weekend, too.  My buddies race A class, so they get around quite well.

How did your friends blow up their bikes during a mud race?  You would think they would be easy on the throttle because traction is low. 

I could see clutches getting abused in the mud, but blowing a motor?   IDK about that.

2/20/2025 6:50am Edited Date/Time 2/20/2025 7:02am
For the pros that don’t pay for anything out of their own pocket, I get it.  Same for pro motocross or Supercross.  I just can’t understand...

For the pros that don’t pay for anything out of their own pocket, I get it.  Same for pro motocross or Supercross.  I just can’t understand how the average amateur woods rider can A justify the expense of doing that to your bike, and B get enjoyment from slogging through deep, sticky mud for 2 or 3 hours.  As for the reasons for the blown up bikes, kinda hard to keep air flowing through your radiators when they are packed full of mud.  Plenty of pro riders blew up bikes last weekend, too.  My buddies race A class, so they get around quite well.

3strokemx wrote:
How did your friends blow up their bikes during a mud race?  You would think they would be easy on the throttle because traction is low. I...

How did your friends blow up their bikes during a mud race?  You would think they would be easy on the throttle because traction is low. 

I could see clutches getting abused in the mud, but blowing a motor?   IDK about that.

Did you read what I wrote?  I explained what happened.  Radiators chock full of mud.

Looks to me like only 6 XC1 riders even finished the race, and an XC2 rider won the overall.  That is just straight abusive to a bike.

IMG 3631

 

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AMetts
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2/20/2025 7:13am
I get the appeal of off road in general, but I just don’t understand the appeal of racing in conditions like that.  I have two friends...

I get the appeal of off road in general, but I just don’t understand the appeal of racing in conditions like that.  I have two friends that were there that both blew up bikes.  Now they’re in a panic to secure the thousands of dollars worth of parts and labor they need to get ready for the next race.  With the exception of a national, most motocross promoters would cancel and reschedule the event for another day if the conditions were that bad.  I guarantee the industry loves the popularity of a sport that requires a full engine rebuild every weekend.

GNCC is essentially the pro motocross counterpart for the off-road world. These races can't be rescheduled for another fun weekend at your local track. Do we...

GNCC is essentially the pro motocross counterpart for the off-road world. These races can't be rescheduled for another fun weekend at your local track. Do we see Pro motocross or supercross cancelling muddy races very often? 

Also, were the conditions at fault for your friends bikes? or poor maintenance in general? I'm willing to bet the experts/pros put a 10x worse beating on their bikes than your buddies did.

For the pros that don’t pay for anything out of their own pocket, I get it.  Same for pro motocross or Supercross.  I just can’t understand...

For the pros that don’t pay for anything out of their own pocket, I get it.  Same for pro motocross or Supercross.  I just can’t understand how the average amateur woods rider can A justify the expense of doing that to your bike, and B get enjoyment from slogging through deep, sticky mud for 2 or 3 hours.  As for the reasons for the blown up bikes, kinda hard to keep air flowing through your radiators when they are packed full of mud.  Plenty of pro riders blew up bikes last weekend, too.  My buddies race A class, so they get around quite well.

Hard to understand if you have never done a mud race, it eventually gets fun when you settle in and the feeling you get from finishing/surviving is an awesome high at the end of the race. 

Nobody made your buddies race and blow their shit up though, its obvious when your bike starts pissing out coolant everywhere and they could have pulled off and quit but they didn't so they knew what could happen. There is a reason why the Morning race had about half the entries it normally does in a dry race. 

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3strokemx
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2/20/2025 7:28am Edited Date/Time 2/20/2025 7:47am
Did you read what I wrote?  I explained what happened.  Radiators chock full of mud.Looks to me like only 6 XC1 riders even finished the race...

Did you read what I wrote?  I explained what happened.  Radiators chock full of mud.

Looks to me like only 6 XC1 riders even finished the race, and an XC2 rider won the overall.  That is just straight abusive to a bike.

IMG 3631

 

I think you're misappropriating the data to support your preconceived ideas. 

246 finishers out of 271 entries this year, that's a 90% finish rate

Last year had 311 finishers out of 375 entries, 83% finish rate


From what I've observed, the most common mechanical DNF at a mud race is people stalling and draining their battery.

LungButter
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2/20/2025 9:44am
Did you read what I wrote?  I explained what happened.  Radiators chock full of mud.Looks to me like only 6 XC1 riders even finished the race...

Did you read what I wrote?  I explained what happened.  Radiators chock full of mud.

Looks to me like only 6 XC1 riders even finished the race, and an XC2 rider won the overall.  That is just straight abusive to a bike.

IMG 3631

 

Sounds like your buddies should invest in radiator fans.

1
AMetts
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2/20/2025 9:47am
Did you read what I wrote?  I explained what happened.  Radiators chock full of mud.Looks to me like only 6 XC1 riders even finished the race...

Did you read what I wrote?  I explained what happened.  Radiators chock full of mud.

Looks to me like only 6 XC1 riders even finished the race, and an XC2 rider won the overall.  That is just straight abusive to a bike.

IMG 3631

 

LungButter wrote:

Sounds like your buddies should invest in radiator fans.

To be fair as a guy that's raced a fcouple of these especially the sticky mud with grass mixed in everything gets so damn clogged up the fan doesn't do much after a while lol. The pros with the pressure washer at pit stops in the radiators is the best solution if you can. 

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LungButter
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2/20/2025 9:56am
AMetts wrote:
To be fair as a guy that's raced a fcouple of these especially the sticky mud with grass mixed in everything gets so damn clogged up...

To be fair as a guy that's raced a fcouple of these especially the sticky mud with grass mixed in everything gets so damn clogged up the fan doesn't do much after a while lol. The pros with the pressure washer at pit stops in the radiators is the best solution if you can. 

Makes sense. 

yak651
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2/20/2025 10:43am
tmx860 wrote:
Why is it that XC2 guys did so well? Last year, two XC2 guys won an overall. This weekend's West Hare Scrambles had 250 Pros beating...

Why is it that XC2 guys did so well? Last year, two XC2 guys won an overall. This weekend's West Hare Scrambles had 250 Pros beating 450s too (but not for the overall win)

You don’t feel that a 250 rider could win SX or mx if racing at same time as the 450s? I think it would happen a fair amount. Can definitely see the benefit off road in the longer races on a bike that doesn’t tire you out as much

LungButter
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2/20/2025 10:49am
yak651 wrote:
You don’t feel that a 250 rider could win SX or mx if racing at same time as the 450s? I think it would happen a...

You don’t feel that a 250 rider could win SX or mx if racing at same time as the 450s? I think it would happen a fair amount. Can definitely see the benefit off road in the longer races on a bike that doesn’t tire you out as much

I don't think they would win much against 450s in SX/MX.   Especially in SX.

If you go back and listen to interviews where Shorty talks about racing the 350, he says that even though lap times are similar between the bigger and smaller bikes that when it comes to actual racing the 250s are at a disadvantage because they don't have the horsepower to point and shoot and get past guys on 450s.

AMetts
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2/20/2025 10:54am
tmx860 wrote:
Why is it that XC2 guys did so well? Last year, two XC2 guys won an overall. This weekend's West Hare Scrambles had 250 Pros beating...

Why is it that XC2 guys did so well? Last year, two XC2 guys won an overall. This weekend's West Hare Scrambles had 250 Pros beating 450s too (but not for the overall win)

yak651 wrote:
You don’t feel that a 250 rider could win SX or mx if racing at same time as the 450s? I think it would happen a...

You don’t feel that a 250 rider could win SX or mx if racing at same time as the 450s? I think it would happen a fair amount. Can definitely see the benefit off road in the longer races on a bike that doesn’t tire you out as much

Some of the GNCC rounds are very fast and rounds like Florida some of those big straights in deep sand a 450 is going to have an advantage. 

truck
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2/20/2025 10:56am

They might not win much but I bet there would be several in the top 10. We already get a glimpse of this with mxon.

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3strokemx
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2/20/2025 11:09am
AMetts wrote:
Some of the GNCC rounds are very fast and rounds like Florida some of those big straights in deep sand a 450 is going to have...

Some of the GNCC rounds are very fast and rounds like Florida some of those big straights in deep sand a 450 is going to have an advantage. 

Here's some trivia for you, before the XC2 class was invented, 250A was regarded as the Pro-Am class. 

What year was the first 250A win on a 250 four stroke?  Surprisingly it was at the Florida round.

Bonus points for the rider and team. 

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sandman768
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2/20/2025 11:14am

Real woods/ enduro/ hare scrambles/ Gncc guys live for the mud! I have been a member of a club that has super nasty trails,rocks, roots & seems like its always muddy…. If you practice in it often, its no big deal and many thrive in those conditions….….I was always a moto guy over woods but the feeling of accomplishment when you finish one of these brutal races is epic….patience and line selection 👍

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2/20/2025 11:25am
tmx860 wrote:
Why is it that XC2 guys did so well? Last year, two XC2 guys won an overall. This weekend's West Hare Scrambles had 250 Pros beating...

Why is it that XC2 guys did so well? Last year, two XC2 guys won an overall. This weekend's West Hare Scrambles had 250 Pros beating 450s too (but not for the overall win)

I feel like we watching a younger generation of racers stepping in and stepping up. There is a lot of fast talent that's for sure. It's pretty exciting to see.

2
wrc777
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2/20/2025 11:38am
tmx860 wrote:
Why is it that XC2 guys did so well? Last year, two XC2 guys won an overall. This weekend's West Hare Scrambles had 250 Pros beating...

Why is it that XC2 guys did so well? Last year, two XC2 guys won an overall. This weekend's West Hare Scrambles had 250 Pros beating 450s too (but not for the overall win)

yak651 wrote:
You don’t feel that a 250 rider could win SX or mx if racing at same time as the 450s? I think it would happen a...

You don’t feel that a 250 rider could win SX or mx if racing at same time as the 450s? I think it would happen a fair amount. Can definitely see the benefit off road in the longer races on a bike that doesn’t tire you out as much

If that were true the 250 2t would still be finishing top 10 in 450 class, and they almost never score a point let alone a top 10. The justification for keeping them out of the 250 class is that they would be too fast for a 250f to beat.

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3strokemx
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2/20/2025 11:39am

2006, Dustin Gibson number 911 on a RidePG KTM.

2/20/2025 2:10pm
tmx860 wrote:
Why is it that XC2 guys did so well? Last year, two XC2 guys won an overall. This weekend's West Hare Scrambles had 250 Pros beating...

Why is it that XC2 guys did so well? Last year, two XC2 guys won an overall. This weekend's West Hare Scrambles had 250 Pros beating 450s too (but not for the overall win)

They did so well because only 6 XC1 guys even finished the race.  Baylor DNFed.  Unless he’s hurt and didn’t show up, it looks like defending champ Johnny Girrior must have DNFed, too.  All the experts here on Vital believe that it is impossible for a factory bike to DNF a horrible mud race, apparently.  Radiator fans don’t work if the radiator is so packed with mud that air can’t pass through it.

Jdog2221
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2/20/2025 2:23pm
sandman768 wrote:
I would not want to be on a 450 in those conditions! Did Unadilla owners & Mx sports have a falling out over the repair reclaiming...

I would not want to be on a 450 in those conditions! Did Unadilla owners & Mx sports have a falling out over the repair reclaiming the trails? 

They just simply outgrew the property. 

1

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