4 strokes and the de-evolution of the sport

ATKpilot99
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 1:16am
Before anyone accuses me of fishing I'll admit I am... hey its an off week. Yes todays riders are going faster but it doesnt take as much skill.. they are twisting the throttle and hanging on... O'Mara , Bailey , Johnson, Ward etc. They were technicians dealing with the wheel spin and the precision needed to excell on a 2 stroke . Put them on a deisel in their prime and they would laugh as they were gapping the field.
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observer
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7/28/2010 6:27pm Edited Date/Time 7/28/2010 6:27pm
Oh boy, you started it. I'm running...Tongue

I will say, there's some merit to your statements though. Different deal riding a 4t, and easier.
86honda
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7/28/2010 6:28pm
stupid
7/28/2010 6:38pm
If you watched the top riders on 125 and 250t's, it was SOOOO much more exciting. The technique to go fast on a 125 for example was like nothing else on this planet. How quickly we forget the HANG IT OUT style of a Guy Cooper or Mike Brown and latter RC and Bubba on 2 strokes. That style no longer exists. Even watching Barcia on his 250F is way tame in comparison, never mind the 450's IDLEING around the track. I think if we could flash back and be live at a 125/250 national our jaws would drop.
If you don't get it, you don't get it.
Cygnus
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7/28/2010 6:42pm Edited Date/Time 7/28/2010 6:43pm

The Shop

Cygnus
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7/28/2010 6:43pm
ATKpilot99
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7/28/2010 6:45pm
Cygnus wrote:
[img]http://lemon-beagles.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/mr_peabody.jpg[/img]
Lol
jaeckle
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7/28/2010 6:57pm
If you watched the top riders on 125 and 250t's, it was SOOOO much more exciting. The technique to go fast on a 125 for example...
If you watched the top riders on 125 and 250t's, it was SOOOO much more exciting. The technique to go fast on a 125 for example was like nothing else on this planet. How quickly we forget the HANG IT OUT style of a Guy Cooper or Mike Brown and latter RC and Bubba on 2 strokes. That style no longer exists. Even watching Barcia on his 250F is way tame in comparison, never mind the 450's IDLEING around the track. I think if we could flash back and be live at a 125/250 national our jaws would drop.
If you don't get it, you don't get it.
Very well said. The two strokes evoked the hang it out style in all riders. Four strokes are so much easier to ride fast. The attitude is gone. As is the out of this world excitment of attending a National.
7/28/2010 7:24pm
-Power to weight =2 stroke wins
-Power per cc = 2 stroke wins
- Overall weight = 2 stroke wins
-Handling = 2 stroke wins
-Maintenance cost = 2 stroke wins
-DIY mechanic friendly = 2 stroke wins
-Controling BD levels = 2 stroke wins
-Sounds cool = 2 stroke wins
-Makes you a better more skilled rider = 2 stroke wins
-Fun to ride = 2 stroke wins

I could go on and on.

In fact the only thing going for 4 strrokes is that they do hook up well in some situations and any muppet can ride them.
Though you could argue they're more environmentally friendly but thats only the case when you only look at what comes out the tailpipe, I mean there's car manuafacure's that are clamming that their elecric cars are "zero emission" what a crock of s$%t!

4 strokes are a whole emperor's new clothes secnario.
ATKpilot99
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7/28/2010 7:28pm Edited Date/Time 7/28/2010 7:29pm
And I shouldnt leave out riders like McGrath , Emig , Henry , Albee, Tortelli etc. ... Everts who was a master on the 2 stroke then killed it on the 4 stroke also .
Oh and some guy named RC ...
JustMX
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7/28/2010 7:28pm
I agree completely...........

But you forgot to mention the finesse in the battles of other greats like Bailey and GLover on 500 machines, or the complete lack of it in the brutal style used by the late Magoo.

I consider myself fortunate to have witnessed that era in the sport and wonder if it will ever come back because of what the farting pigs have done to the sport.
7/28/2010 7:50pm
Imagine, we'd be on EFI 2strokes, that would be super light and way more fun and sound like motocross, instead of Trash Trunk Nationals
7/28/2010 7:58pm
Do you guys remember this post. I saved the text, but can't remember where I got it...

Unfortunately, one of the largest factors in the popularity of the thumpers is more related to the general trend towards obesity in this country.

Why is the four-stroke so popular despite costing more to purchase and maintain ?

The polite term is it makes more "friendly" power. What that translates to is the average Vet and up rider who is carrying EXTRA weight and is out of shape can now go a few more laps than he could on a 250T. Look around the next time you're at a track. Riders now are older and tend to be heavier. A lot heavier. Just part of an unfortunate trend in this and many other countries.

Back a generation ago, those same guys were relegated to the back of the pack on a smoker. Now they can plunk their fat ass down on a 450 and keep going longer. The same exact thing occured in jet skis when they switched from stand-ups to sit-downs.
ATKpilot99
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7/28/2010 8:10pm
[embed][/embed]

And of course Stewart on the one two five...
pcdoc
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7/28/2010 8:22pm
Do you guys remember this post. I saved the text, but can't remember where I got it... Unfortunately, one of the largest factors in the popularity...
Do you guys remember this post. I saved the text, but can't remember where I got it...

Unfortunately, one of the largest factors in the popularity of the thumpers is more related to the general trend towards obesity in this country.

Why is the four-stroke so popular despite costing more to purchase and maintain ?

The polite term is it makes more "friendly" power. What that translates to is the average Vet and up rider who is carrying EXTRA weight and is out of shape can now go a few more laps than he could on a 250T. Look around the next time you're at a track. Riders now are older and tend to be heavier. A lot heavier. Just part of an unfortunate trend in this and many other countries.

Back a generation ago, those same guys were relegated to the back of the pack on a smoker. Now they can plunk their fat ass down on a 450 and keep going longer. The same exact thing occured in jet skis when they switched from stand-ups to sit-downs.
I always rode CR250R's...'86, '91 and '93, then the cost of keeping my kid in 80's and 125's precluded me from having my own bike for a while. Now the kid is out of the house, I bought an '06 YZ450F a couple years ago... I must say I love the bike, and you're right...its PERFECT for my old fat ass! LOL The only problem I have with the bike is it wants to pull my arms off and beat me with them! :D I loved the power and hit of a 250R, but the 450 just seems to be a little "beefier" and I like having a little more power. As far as the sport goes...I think a hopped up 250R is just as big a handful on a dry slick track as the 450, maybe worse...
yanks_178
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7/28/2010 8:33pm
I'm at Ponca and today the most exciting race was the 125 2 stroke class. There were lines of people watching them. Everyone was talking about how awesome it sounded. The racing was close and these guys were hauling ass!!

I forget how loud these damn 4 strokes are. We are parked right by the start line and when they take off we can't even hear ourselves think!!
Blake
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7/28/2010 8:39pm
yanks_178 wrote:
I'm at Ponca and today the most exciting race was the 125 2 stroke class. There were lines of people watching them. Everyone was talking about...
I'm at Ponca and today the most exciting race was the 125 2 stroke class. There were lines of people watching them. Everyone was talking about how awesome it sounded. The racing was close and these guys were hauling ass!!

I forget how loud these damn 4 strokes are. We are parked right by the start line and when they take off we can't even hear ourselves think!!
Damn right. Non fans love the 85 Experts too.

This sport has went to shit and I hate it. I don't watch it much or follow it much anymore because of it.

wardy
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7/28/2010 9:44pm
You know I am not sure it was mentioned and no one likes to hear it. But what I have seen is when a 4 stroke doesn't take a jump right the first thing that happens is the thing is endoing.

bust my ass if you like, but at our track i have seen way more endos in the last ten years then the ten years prior. Less high side corner crashes.

Nothing to do with bike types but this scubbin stuff hurts many also.

just my .0002 cents.
7/29/2010 4:52am
Payton said it when they first came out. Its a drag race now, stopping at each corner.
mikem
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7/29/2010 5:56am
I think that the 4 stroke has de-evolutionized the sport in the sense that they are too expensive to maintain and not as fun to ride. Simple.
`ol Ger
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7/29/2010 6:03am
The solution !!
IntenseRider
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7/29/2010 6:24am
ATKpilot99 wrote:
And I shouldnt leave out riders like McGrath , Emig , Henry , Albee, Tortelli etc. ... Everts who was a master on the 2 stroke...
And I shouldnt leave out riders like McGrath , Emig , Henry , Albee, Tortelli etc. ... Everts who was a master on the 2 stroke then killed it on the 4 stroke also .
Oh and some guy named RC ...
I would like to nominate Travis Pastrana to that list as well. Smile
huck
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7/29/2010 6:29am
observer wrote:
Oh boy, you started it. I'm running... I will say, there's some merit to your statements though. Different deal riding a 4t, and easier.
Oh boy, you started it. I'm running...Tongue

I will say, there's some merit to your statements though. Different deal riding a 4t, and easier.
Hey dippy....what's a "4t"?

huck
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7/29/2010 6:31am
wardy wrote:
You know I am not sure it was mentioned and no one likes to hear it. But what I have seen is when a 4 stroke...
You know I am not sure it was mentioned and no one likes to hear it. But what I have seen is when a 4 stroke doesn't take a jump right the first thing that happens is the thing is endoing.

bust my ass if you like, but at our track i have seen way more endos in the last ten years then the ten years prior. Less high side corner crashes.

Nothing to do with bike types but this scubbin stuff hurts many also.

just my .0002 cents.
I'd say some of the endos are part of the 4-stroke...but a lot of them are from 250c riders trying to "scrub" every jump on the track...
Moto East Mag
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7/29/2010 7:10am
Do you guys remember this post. I saved the text, but can't remember where I got it... Unfortunately, one of the largest factors in the popularity...
Do you guys remember this post. I saved the text, but can't remember where I got it...

Unfortunately, one of the largest factors in the popularity of the thumpers is more related to the general trend towards obesity in this country.

Why is the four-stroke so popular despite costing more to purchase and maintain ?

The polite term is it makes more "friendly" power. What that translates to is the average Vet and up rider who is carrying EXTRA weight and is out of shape can now go a few more laps than he could on a 250T. Look around the next time you're at a track. Riders now are older and tend to be heavier. A lot heavier. Just part of an unfortunate trend in this and many other countries.

Back a generation ago, those same guys were relegated to the back of the pack on a smoker. Now they can plunk their fat ass down on a 450 and keep going longer. The same exact thing occured in jet skis when they switched from stand-ups to sit-downs.
Just curious-- do you race a 450?

They are not as easy to ride as everybody thinks. I think the trend toward heavier riders has more to do with the fact that Vet racing is huge now. Guys are riding into their 40s a lot more than they used to, and older guys tend to have some weight on them.
And some of these big dudes are surprisingly fast.


calimxer91
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7/29/2010 7:21am Edited Date/Time 8/26/2011 4:40pm
.
agency399
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7/29/2010 7:34am
I used to think you folks who wanted 2 strokes back were crazy. To ride a 450 for me, is a lot safer, easier to jump the crazy jumps that are being put on today's courses, not near as much swap as a two stroke....ect

Well I started racing again this year, and the lack of people showing up at the gate is a bit alarming. The novice and am classes used to be stacked........I always figured most of that age was 16 to 28 or so........let’s say that the economy was booming, who can afford $1200-$2,000 rebuilds? On top of the bike price to begin with, at that age? All it takes is a little dirt to get behind that filter. I am pretty good with keeping it all clean now at age 27, but it took me a long time to realize how important that was. Now if a kid wants to get into it and makes that same mistake, he or she’s done. I have seen it first hand with a few kids who have bought my used bikes.

I don't want to sound all negative, but the reality is, now you better have some major parent financial support, and to be honest, I think a ton of racers in the novice and am classes will never have their parents blessing, let alone financial support for this crazy sport. And I think that’s the sole of amateur motocross. 16-28 or so.

I make a pretty decent living, I have a college degree, I bit of a go getter some say, and to come up with the cash for valve jobs and rebuilds isn’t all that easy. How can the working man do it without sacrificing EVERYTHING else?

One of my accounts is a Yamaha dealership, and I think I will be trying out the YZ next year

In short, I love my 450, LOVE IT. But I would rather see many people racing an affordable bike, so that there are more people to race with, rather than a select few who can afford the new generation of dirt bikes.

And of course, the two strokes at the pro level were tenfold more exciting to watch.....
pcdoc
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7/29/2010 7:45am Edited Date/Time 7/29/2010 7:47am
agency399 wrote:
I used to think you folks who wanted 2 strokes back were crazy. To ride a 450 for me, is a lot safer, easier to jump...
I used to think you folks who wanted 2 strokes back were crazy. To ride a 450 for me, is a lot safer, easier to jump the crazy jumps that are being put on today's courses, not near as much swap as a two stroke....ect

Well I started racing again this year, and the lack of people showing up at the gate is a bit alarming. The novice and am classes used to be stacked........I always figured most of that age was 16 to 28 or so........let’s say that the economy was booming, who can afford $1200-$2,000 rebuilds? On top of the bike price to begin with, at that age? All it takes is a little dirt to get behind that filter. I am pretty good with keeping it all clean now at age 27, but it took me a long time to realize how important that was. Now if a kid wants to get into it and makes that same mistake, he or she’s done. I have seen it first hand with a few kids who have bought my used bikes.

I don't want to sound all negative, but the reality is, now you better have some major parent financial support, and to be honest, I think a ton of racers in the novice and am classes will never have their parents blessing, let alone financial support for this crazy sport. And I think that’s the sole of amateur motocross. 16-28 or so.

I make a pretty decent living, I have a college degree, I bit of a go getter some say, and to come up with the cash for valve jobs and rebuilds isn’t all that easy. How can the working man do it without sacrificing EVERYTHING else?

One of my accounts is a Yamaha dealership, and I think I will be trying out the YZ next year

In short, I love my 450, LOVE IT. But I would rather see many people racing an affordable bike, so that there are more people to race with, rather than a select few who can afford the new generation of dirt bikes.

And of course, the two strokes at the pro level were tenfold more exciting to watch.....
You hit the nail on the head. The cost. With bikes approaching 10 grand, is it any wonder grass roots racing has suffered. Couple that with the down turn in the economy, how can parents or young adults be expected to get into or continue in racing? Its my belief that a vibrant local, grass roots racing community is essential to the sport of motocross. Without it, there wont be any riders to TURN pro.
CamP
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7/29/2010 8:20am
Less is more. The thumpers need to lose their displacement advantage if this sport is going to thrive again.

How did we get here? What happened is the manufacturers pretty much tapped out the development of the two stroke and they needed a brand new product to boost sales. That new product was the thumper and it hit the market at the same time the economy was booming. The thumpers sold like crazy, even though they cost 30% more, because the economy was artificially high and people wanted something "new and improved". Now the "new" has worn off and people are more careful about their expenditures and suddenly the four strokes don't make sense at all. Race tracks around the country have become ghost towns and dealers have three year old bikes on the floor. It all comes down to money. $8k race bikes are a pipe dream for most people and you would think someone at the big 4 would step up and say "hey fellas, I think we priced the middle class out of motocross. Maybe this four stroke experiment was a bad idea after all."

The cure is for all the sanctioning bodies to drop any displacement handicap, period.
Moto East Mag
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7/29/2010 8:20am
People that want to race two strokes still can, and they are. I still have my RM250.
There was a dude racing a 1976 RM at Budds recently in the regular vet class. You want to race you will find a way.

The costs to campaign a 250F are pretty alarming though. If money is a concern, you still have the YZ250 or KTM.
CamP
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7/29/2010 8:26am
People that want to race two strokes still can, and they are. I still have my RM250. There was a dude racing a 1976 RM at...
People that want to race two strokes still can, and they are. I still have my RM250.
There was a dude racing a 1976 RM at Budds recently in the regular vet class. You want to race you will find a way.

The costs to campaign a 250F are pretty alarming though. If money is a concern, you still have the YZ250 or KTM.
That's true, but most sheeple think they need the same bike the pros ride to be competitive. You and I know that's not true, but it's tough to break the group thought that clever marketing and bad sanctioning body decisions have created.

BTW, I run the same lap times on my '82 RM250 as I do on my '08 CRF450.

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