You can't have your cake and eat it.....

Matt414
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St. Petersburg , FL US
Edited Date/Time 1/26/2012 10:01pm
After reading this board for a few years and listening to you guys bitch. I think I've figured out a few things. You guys want it both ways. Well, it doesn't work that way. You guys say you want the sport to grow and purses to grow. But you still want Jonnyo Moto to show up with his dad in their pick up truck with the bike they bought with their hard earned money at the local shop. Well, things don't grow and stay the same. Some of you say you want growth, but we still need the privateers. Well, the deal is, if this sport is to grow, things HAVE TO CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its that simple. And that involves a more professional image to attract more outside sponsors. That means that Jonnyo and his daddy riding out of their pickup truck has to go. I know you guys don't like nascar, but you know what? Jeff Gordon made more money last year then probably every factory rider and privateer that raced a SX last year combined. If SX/MX is to grow, things will change. It is that simple. Part of the big attraction to nascar for sponsors? A very professional image. Yes, most of the spectators are toothless rednecks, but have you guys been to a SX or outdoor lately? Thats what makes up a large percentage of the fans. You guys DO NOT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY! Did you hear that? You don't! Its that simple. You guys think that you represent the fan base. Well, you don't. The majority of the fan base at SX anymore is either flatbillers from the 909 or rednecks in Atlanta. There are 50,000 people at an SX, and most of them don't ride. They are there to watch someone crash their brains out. Not to watch some title chase, not to watch jonnyo moto and his dad try to get that big break. They don't even know the difference between a privateer and a factory rider. They do not care.

People on hear think that they think they know how things work inside the industry, and most couldn't be farther from the truth. Any time any one comes on here that works inside the industry, you guys shoe them away. If they don't kiss your ass and suck your balls, everyone gets all pissy. People ran off Larry Brooks, and everyone said fine. You think it was just him that was pissed off? He left, and so did others. Paul comes on here and you guys bag on him. Paul has probably been to more pro sx/mx race's then damn near everyone on here combined. He has a better idea of how this shit works then damn near any of you ever will. Forrest tells you guys how it is, and people bitch at him? What the hell? Just because this isn't your fantasy world that you thought it was, that makes him wrong?

The biggest thing I think that cause's issues with all of this. Most of you on here fail to see one big difference. This is a business. Very simple. It is a business to the factory's the privateer teams and the guys out there trying to make it. Yes, they enjoy what they do. But its how they make their house payments. Its how they pay their grocery bill. The big issue, is you guys let your emotions get in the way, and it clouds your judgement and view points. To most of you, this is something you do on the weekends, because you like it. For the guys at the races every week, its their job. Yes, its something they enjoyed when they started, but most of you had that when you started your career, now its how you pay the bills.

I am sure everyone is gonna bag on me and tell me that I am a dick or a dork and I don't know shit about anything. But, hey what the hell do I know? Nothing I guess.
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cdan18
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2/26/2008 8:17pm
Good post Matt, I think I agree with just about every point you made. I would have said the same thing but since im a newb (even though I've been reading for about a year) I would have just been shot down and nobody would have cared what I said.
2/26/2008 8:20pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
[quote="Matt414":uytm7qv9] That means that Jonnyo and his daddy riding out of their pickup truck has to go.[/quote:uytm7qv9]When Jonnyo showed up with that beuty of a Mugen in the back of his truck, he was pretty damn fast.
jay547
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US
2/26/2008 8:28pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
[quote="Matt414":1617oce9]
People on hear think that they think they know how things work inside the industry, and most couldn't be farther from the truth. Any time any one comes on here that works inside the industry, you guys shoe them away. If they don't kiss your ass and suck your balls, everyone gets all pissy. People ran off Larry Brooks, and everyone said fine. You think it was just him that was pissed off? He left, and so did others. Paul comes on here and you guys bag on him. Paul has probably been to more pro sx/mx race's then damn near everyone on here combined. He has a better idea of how this shit works then damn near any of you ever will. Forrest tells you guys how it is, and people bitch at him? What the hell? Just because this isn't your fantasy world that you thought it was, that makes him wrong?

[/quote:1617oce9]

this is why i get all my insider info from dave.
2/26/2008 8:33pm
Hmmm...I've been busy on a project outside the office for the last couple days. What did I miss?

The Shop

TJ 755
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2/26/2008 8:40pm
What is your point?
mxrose3
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Delmar, DE US
2/26/2008 8:56pm
I have to disagree somewhat.
I don't believe motocross will ever be near as big as Nascar.
Nascar has the fan base because the typical 'Johnny Redneck' can relate to driving fast in a circle in a fast car.
Not everyone can relate to motocross and supercross. If you take away average 'JonnyO' who shows up to race in his pick up truck, you take away more fan base.
Its the same reason Formula 1 isn't as big as Nascar.... Formula 1 is WAY better IMO, but you'll have a hard time convincing the general public of that.
The general public wants simple things that they can relate to. Football, Baseball, Basketball, Nascar.
Matt414
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2/26/2008 9:28pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
[quote="MXRose3":lec2jqfp]I have to disagree somewhat.
I don't believe motocross will ever be near as big as Nascar.
Nascar has the fan base because the typical 'Johnny Redneck' can relate to driving fast in a circle in a fast car.
Not everyone can relate to motocross and supercross. If you take away average 'JonnyO' who shows up to race in his pick up truck, you take away more fan base.
Its the same reason Formula 1 isn't as big as Nascar.... Formula 1 is WAY better IMO, but you'll have a hard time convincing the general public of that.
The general public wants simple things that they can relate to. Football, Baseball, Basketball, Nascar.[/quote:lec2jqfp]

Your right on part of that. I doubt you would take much of the fan base away if the privateers aren't there, but not a huge amount. The one thing, F1 is WAY bigger then nascar will ever dream of being. In the states F1 isn't as big as nascar, but the US isn't the world. The US thinks what's popular here, must be the same everywhere else.
2/26/2008 9:47pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
[quote="MXRose3":x8c5fh6q]I have to disagree somewhat.
I don't believe motocross will ever be near as big as Nascar.
Nascar has the fan base because the typical 'Johnny Redneck' can relate to driving fast in a circle in a fast car.
Not everyone can relate to motocross and supercross. If you take away average 'JonnyO' who shows up to race in his pick up truck, you take away more fan base.
Its the same reason Formula 1 isn't as big as Nascar.... Formula 1 is WAY better IMO, but you'll have a hard time convincing the general public of that.
The general public wants simple things that they can relate to. Football, Baseball, Basketball, Nascar.[/quote:x8c5fh6q]



The biggest difference between SX and NASCAR is it takes talent and training to ride. Unfortunately it is also our number one problem. There is not enough talented riders to make SX exciting. It's 90 percent rider and 10% bike. NASCAR is about 180 from that and money can fix a lot of short comings. Think I'm wrong explain how a family name and or a "buy a ride" has gotten someone into the night show or on a National gate. At the competitive level MX and SX will never be NASCAR it takes too much talent.
2/26/2008 10:14pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
my matt you get out of bed on the wrong side today?

But you are absolutely right, it is a business and to guys in the trenches is a big deal and it's how they pay the way. My complaint isn't that Johnny pick up truck doesn't get his chance.......he does more in this sport then any other type of racing in my opinion. The problem is if these so called professionals (promoters) would spread the wealth a little more, so that Jeff Gordon doesn't make more than all the racers combined that would be a start. But like in another post where someone complained about making money, until riders who take the most risk here get paid what there worth, this sport won't be taken serious. You are absolutely correct Mx/Sx is a friggin minority group.
I don't pretend to know anyone or think that I would have something to offer the pro side of things. One thing I do concern myself with is that "Johnny pickup truck" isn't forgotten at the local level, because with todays main focus on the front row 300.000 dollar motorhomes in the pits, there are 10x more pickups with a tent out back.

Our sport will grow as the economy lets it. MOST ALL spectators relate to round de round nascar. It's simple they own a truck or a car and relate.......win on Sunday sell on Monday wasn't a phrase coined in Mx. Our sport is to new,(comparitively) to unorganized, and to "special" to become a super hit anytime soon. Its come a long way......


LOL Hey this is a friggin post board where the johnny pickup truck dude like myself can voice an opinion, if it gets read cool, if not well at least it freshin's up the long lost typing skills.

One thing is for sure, I don't have any idea who is and who isn't an "insider" around here, but if one of them does come in here then hey it's a jungle.

DV does ok huh? just a thought.
race
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2/26/2008 10:35pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
A. LN is catching flak from us because they dumped the privateers [u:1ubf320u]before[/u:1ubf320u] they made sure they had enough riders to fill the gate. And they keep chopping the show down. I wonder if there have ever been any actual demographic studies of what a typical SX audience is composed of.

B. As far as growing the sport, the AMA cerainly hasn't helped with their non-stop bungling. LN, I suspect is far more interested in growing their profit, than growing the sport. One has to wonder WHO exactly is looking out for the future of the sport.

C. Although I never flame the few industry types that wander in and always appreciate their input, from what I saw of Brooks's net escapades, he did himself in. Some folks just don't have the personality or net savvy for it. DV has clearly found a comfortable balance in the way he posts and has fun with it all.

D. "Paul Brians, Professor of English at Washington State University, points out that the original and only sensible version of this saying is “You can’t eat your cake and have it too,” meaning that if you eat your cake you won’t have it any more. People get confused because we use the expression “have some cake” to mean “eat some cake,” and they therefore misunderstand what “have” means in this expression.[1] Alternatively, people understand that "have" and "eat" represent a sequence of actions, so one can indeed "have" one's cake and then "eat" it. Consequently, the literal meaning of the reversed idiom doesn't match the metaphorical meaning."

No charge for that last bit. <img class= " title="Wink">
KTM boy 137
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2/26/2008 10:37pm
Oh the drama.

You win Daves title...
Mod Killer
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2/26/2008 11:04pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
[quote="guyb":3i2vyn88]Hmmm...I've been busy on a project outside the office for the last couple days. What did I miss?[/quote:3i2vyn88]

most recently? here it is.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50663

it pretty much details everything in matts rant.
mx184
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AVA, IL US
2/27/2008 2:51am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
Matt,
I don't agree with half of what you typed. The fastest kid is always the fastest kid. It don't matter what they drive. If someone has the skills they should get a fair chance to race. You know the fastest kids don't always qualify for LLs. It comes down to some luck as well.
I agree you must have had a bad day. Step back and re read your post. It comes across as very negative to us lower class folk dat don't fit in to your salary range.
I am one of the dads whom drag his trailer and family around every weekend, trying to help my boy reach his dreams. ( thats my job as a father) I'm proud my son is " The future privateer". <img class= " title="Laughing">

I'm done ranting now!
# 184 Logan Dagners Dad
Scott Dagner
KAWboy14
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2/27/2008 5:24am
[quote:3t5z0yz3]matt.....professional image [/quote:3t5z0yz3]

this would require [b:3t5z0yz3]PROFESSIONALS[/b:3t5z0yz3] running the show!
Racer92
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2/27/2008 6:12am
4 out of 5 dentists choose Motodrive !
brent26wood
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2/27/2008 6:56am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
[quote="WORCSRACER":3uf7ofit][quote="MXRose3":3uf7ofit]I have to disagree somewhat.
I don't believe motocross will ever be near as big as Nascar.
Nascar has the fan base because the typical 'Johnny Redneck' can relate to driving fast in a circle in a fast car.
Not everyone can relate to motocross and supercross. If you take away average 'JonnyO' who shows up to race in his pick up truck, you take away more fan base.
Its the same reason Formula 1 isn't as big as Nascar.... Formula 1 is WAY better IMO, but you'll have a hard time convincing the general public of that.
The general public wants simple things that they can relate to. Football, Baseball, Basketball, Nascar.[/quote:3uf7ofit]



[b:3uf7ofit]The biggest difference between SX and NASCAR is it takes talent and training to ride. [/b:3uf7ofit]Unfortunately it is also our number one problem. There is not enough talented riders to make SX exciting. It's 90 percent rider and 10% bike. NASCAR is about 180 from that and money can fix a lot of short comings. Think I'm wrong explain how a family name and or a "buy a ride" has gotten someone into the night show or on a National gate. At the competitive level MX and SX will never be NASCAR it takes too much talent.[/quote:3uf7ofit]Yep, thank god NASCAR doesn't take talent or training. If it did RC wouldn't be able to just walk in and dominate like he is. :roll:
Larry
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2/27/2008 7:03am
Who needs insiders? MX was created by outsiders
Nascar made it possible for the privateer (they were called independents back in the day) to earn a living on the circuit. They needed the privateers to fill the fields. Eventually the sport grew to were the independents could not keep up but they were replaced by well funded teams that kept the fields full.
Based on what Nascar looks like today I am not sure I want our sport modeled after them.
flarider
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2/27/2008 7:12am
Double edged sword, guys.

Everyone wants bigger purses, but no one wants the sport to grow.
How can you expect bigger purses without growth?

Some of you need to make up your minds about what you want, because you can't have it both ways.
Either the sport grows, changes and adapts in order to increase revenues to pay the desired higher purses or you stagnate growth and keep the sport status quo

Choose
Racer92
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2/27/2008 7:19am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
[quote="WORCSRACER":308ve6r7]The biggest difference between SX and NASCAR is it takes talent and training to ride.[/quote:308ve6r7]
Yep, you are right. Anyone can jump in a 3400# land-yacht and go 200mph for hours & hours.
rucka356
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2/27/2008 7:34am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
So this year there was an increase in cost to do business. Just like every other business in the world. Every year the cost to do business increases, whether its from transportation costs, tax increases, etc.....(including entry fees). If that is his business then he needs to adapt and suck it up, just like the rest of us do in our businesses. I suppose there is nothing wrong with bitching about it though. I know everyone of us is guilty of bitching about our jobs at one time or another.

He should realize that just like my job, his job/business is an "at will job" and he can quit, or sell out any time he wants. No one is forcing him to do what he is doing. If he can't pay his bills traveling the country like a rockstar, then he needs to find something else to do. Perhaps they should stick to local races and they can go back to the pick up truck scene and take home local purse money instead.....I'd say they would make more that way.
2/27/2008 7:35am
If LN and the AMA are successful at getting rid of the local yokel at the events, and the are able to bring in more sponsorship dollars for the series, what makes anyone believe that those extra dollars will filter down to the riders?

And TFS actually makes a very, very good point above as far as individual team sponsorship goes......
flarider
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2/27/2008 7:39am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
It's been a long time problem for teams, and not just about energy drinks.
Sponsors spend a lot of money, but teams are forbidden from passing out decals, t-shirts, hats and other promotional items.
The system has made it where teams can do little more for their sponsors than "there's your logo"
wpcjs
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2/27/2008 7:40am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
[quote:3am3mtds][quote="Racetime

I think what people are missing is this - In both SX and MX, teams are grumbling because the promoters are competing with them, but promoters hold the power. So you do you work to get your sponsors, and they either want those sponsors for themselves, or if yours compete with theirs, they want to hide you and not help you. That's your thanks for working so hard to support the sport and participate.

BBMX can't hand out cans of their sponsor's energy drink, because the series sponsor doesn't want to see them in people's hands. Promoters should be figuring out how to make teams happy, instead of pissed off over stupid things.

This goes on so much we are used to it, and people just grumble and forget why. The reason is too much "MY company before the sport" thinking.[/quote:3am3mtds]


x 100. If I owned a company that was going to spend the $$ to sponsor a sport it would be because I love that sport, and if that meant letting my competition be there so be it. It is dumb that MXA, TWMX,Fox, No Fear, etc. can't have a booth at a National. I have heard these guys can not even hand out stickers to kids.
2/27/2008 7:44am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
Great Post! The kids that have the ability to race and ride at the top level of pro motocross have already been determined when they get through the amateur rankings. These kids got factory help {as an amateur} because they had great results at major amateur nationals. When I say great results, I mean winning, or consistently on the podium. The "weeding" process has already occurred during amateurs. Have some kids slipped through the cracks because of funding to make all these nationals? Not really. These kids are absolute naturals on a motorcycle, and they "stand out" like a running back who plays for USC.
Right now there is more talent than "rides". I happened a couple years ago in the lites division. There are kids that do possess the right "tools" to make it. Here is a perfect example why teams like Butler Brothers are so important to the sport. Last year a kid on Yamaha of Troy had some great finishes in both MX and SX. He ride wasn't renewed for 2008. In 2008 he has already had a top 5 finish in SX lites . It would have been impossible to do this without a team. You need great equipment, practice facilities, travel accomodations, and more to compete at this level. Without teams like Butler brothers, Team Solitaire, Suzuki City, Richardsons RV, Team ECC,{etc.} what chance would a Kyle Cunningham or Robert Kiniry have? We need these privateer teams for "johnny Privateer". These guys are the new privateers, if you haven't figured that out. The factories only have so many positions they can fill.
2/27/2008 7:46am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
[quote="flarider":34l3hr1k]It's been a long time problem for teams, and not just about energy drinks.
Sponsors spend a lot of money, but teams are forbidden from passing out decals, t-shirts, hats and other promotional items.
The system has made it where teams can do little more for their sponsors than "there's your logo"[/quote:34l3hr1k]


So it would seem that this is a MUCH bigger problem than having a local guy in the pits, doesn't it?
flarider
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2/27/2008 7:47am
There are many problems
2/27/2008 8:00am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
ONe thing for sure we can all get it figured out here! Now it will just take the right people to do it.

<img class= " title="Smile">
2/27/2008 8:02am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:15pm
[quote="flarider":1pvg2d6c]There are many problems[/quote:1pvg2d6c]


But which of those two keeps corporate sponsorship away more?
flarider
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2/27/2008 8:09am
Guess that depends on each individual company and decision maker

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