Big strong and/or Tall guys have no place in pro MX/SX these days

Moto112 wrote:

Ever since Jeff ward started winning the writing was on the wall for the big guys that MX was going to be the domain of the...

Ever since Jeff ward started winning the writing was on the wall for the big guys that MX was going to be the domain of the short people.

I want to see anyone that wants to race to be able to have the same mid corner speed and the same corner to corner speed, and right now that ain't the case. The big boys transfer so much weight (that is higher up on their bodies) from the front of the bike to the rear that they are really not riding in the same class with the same advantages as the mighty mites. If we had rules that created an equal playing field I think you'd see different people winning regularly.

Now I'm only just about 1/2" over 6' and about 185 (when trained down to fighting weight), and I fit the current bikes just fine, so don't say I'm suggesting this because I'm one of the big guys but, as a current pro I would still have some disadvantage against the smaller guys. I think Windham and Millsaps must both be phenoms based on the disadvantage that I know they have, even though neither is my favorite rider. That throttle pinning radical kid Josh Grant is my favorite and he fits the bike perfectly.

When I was young, in pro MX we had the 500 class and it was where all the 6'+ boys rode, some of them were even 6' 3"+ and a few over 220 lbs., example; John Finkelday, Alan King, etc. Back then, and now, the little guys could lift weights and train to put on body weight, where the big guys had to stay too skinny and that really hurt them when they crashed. Even back then the little guys had the start advantage and after about 1985 the suspension rebound got more controllable and the forks ridged enough to negate any real strength and larger body that was needed. As soon as Jeff Ward started winning on a 250 (1984 & 1985) it was clear that big bodies were a big handicap and the days of the big guys were all but over. .

Its even worse now! Look at career longevity vs height in MX/SX and you will see exactly what I mean! The tall guys don't last long, with just a few exceptions (Larry ward)! Look at success vs height, there is a even bigger disparity there. Travis Pastrana is a perfect example, the kid was too big to have been on 125's when he was on 125's and still he won. He went over the bars a few times too many, and his skinny body broke instead of rolling like Charmichaels always seemed to do, and it ended his seasons and eventually his career early. Travis needed bigger bikes, with a longer wheelbase to minimize the weight transfer, and keep him from going over the bars, and he needed to get stronger (and weigh more) so he could stay together after a big crash.

Watch the video of Windham beating Charmichael at the 2001 Washougal national. Windhams bars are over the front fender and he looks about a foot too tall to be on the bike. He was leaning forward over the front fender like a ski jumper just to get down the straights. It was a miracle win. He got to the 4-stoke asap and he knew he had to, to stay competitive. It helped until everyone esle got a big thumper also.

The short guys have such an advantage on the start, at most of the races they are at the front and it has to change. Charmichael's 24-moto win steak, was due to hotshots and acceleration, both are due to his combined bike and rider weight being way low. Stewarts streak was due to his outright speed but, both Sewart and Charmichael are short small guys that always start at the front, even if they gate badly, there is no bigger advantage.

The acceleration of the bike with its rider has to be the same for everyone, no matter what the riders body weight!

I want to see the big guys fit their bikes and have the same acceleration and chance to get the hole shot, and just be able to pin it and hang on like the little guys do, and not have to fight the weight transfer from corner to corner and everywhere else.

I have been thinking that we need a second set of bike rules for the larger riders. How about a bike that the little guys are too small to ride well with 23" front wheel and 21" rear. Those larger wheels would lift the bike 1" and necessitate raising the suspension above the wheels another 1". It would also create more mass by increasing the weight of the wheels and that would have to be overcome by the riders strength. Still, how would we prevent the "Charmichael mods" of shrinking the sub frame, lowering the travel and still winning just because he's weighs 100#'s less? We have to have some kind of bike + rider combined wight minimum just like in every other form of motor sport.

So what do you guys think will work and even the field, more displacement, larger wheels, what do the big guys need to be able to have the same speed?

buggz wrote:

2010 SX/MX 450 on a KTM #229 can't miss 'em

Moto112 wrote:

The only thing that is retarded is to keep doing nothing. No one has the answers, it all takes time to figure out. All that needs...

The only thing that is retarded is to keep doing nothing.

No one has the answers, it all takes time to figure out. All that needs to happen now is to identify a possible need. I think most agree that there is a need for something, who knows what. but, something anyway.

jeffro503 wrote:

[b]TIME TO VENT A LITTLE : [/b] Most agree on what? WTF are you talking about? Something needs to be done? You are going to talk...

TIME TO VENT A LITTLE :


Most agree on what? WTF are you talking about? Something needs to be done? You are going to talk to the "pro riders association"??....WTF? HAHA!! Dude , when i first read your original post , i agreed you posted some things that were true ( Things everyone already knows!) About how some taller riders may have a disadvantage on some tracks....and all that shit.

You act like we know nothing about the sport of SX/MX.......you arrogant fucking baffoon! I have forgotten more about this sport than you will ever know! I not only raced bikes for 30+ years , but was a trainer for kids on and off the bike!

Maybe we should get some of the professional trainers in here ( which some do post here) and you can give them the break down on how they should train a rider! OH NO.....wait.......You could save them a lot of time and energy by telling them which guys "will make it" and "Which ones won't".......because of their fucking size! Don't waste your time on the bigger guys.......they are not worth it , is what you are saying correct?

Your ideas of adding weights to bikes and so forth have got to be the stupidest fucking thing i have ever heard. And THEN......you fucktard , have the balls to come in here and give Loudog ( Weston Peick's dad) advice on how his son should race in his MX career?

Are you fucking kidding me?

Jesus Christ.....i'm not sure where the fuck you came from , but where ever it was....please go back there!

Moto112 wrote:

Now we all know why Matt Goerke did not get a good ride after showing the most talent I've ever seen out of a youngster in...

Now we all know why Matt Goerke did not get a good ride after showing the most talent I've ever seen out of a youngster in the 450 class outdoors in 07, it was the factories fears of this moron with loose lips wrecking everything for them!

Jeffro503 As long as you train anyone, they are "persona non grata", and you are to, look it up.

Mr Piecke you and Weston and young Matt Goerke should drop this idiot like he's steaming shit and you both might just make the big time. I think both riders have the stuff, just drop the mental baggage (jeffro503)! This guys attitude and arrogance are more then enough to never get you into a factory hauler. The team mangers want certain types of riders, and this guy is exactly what they, and their boss', distance themselves from, whether a trainer or a rider.

Did I read what he said correctly? Did jeffro503 just say that Weston is doing well is because young Weston listens to this jerk, so now he's starting to come around?

Distance yourselves from this lead weight or you will both go down with him, I've seen that before

Weston is on his way to being great because he wants to be and he has done a whole lot more of his tasks correctly in prepping for his races, and that has nothing to do with you stupid trainer "credit taker", make yourself needed, moron. This jeffro503 guy is not helping anyone one bit, look at Matt Goerke's career I'd have had that kid on real, not satelite, factory equipment a year ago.

Jeffro503 you are a joke, you must be the reason Matt is not on factory equipment and even won a national this year, still, he's not on a big team. How do you justify taking anyones money after wrecking Matts career? How long does young Matt have to keep being fast and showing promise and then brain fade (probably thanks to you) to get on a big team? Not as long as Matt has, he's missing the boat, and racing for peanuts, why don;t you fix that, how about fixing it 2 years ago?.

The morons that dissented and could not even understand this post, that the bigger and smaller guys are at a disadvantage, are the worst part of our sport. We don't need you, especially you Jeffro503 you anti-intellectual idiot, Oh, and Jeffro503 (synonym for dip shit), that Hannah article is 10 years old, I heard it way back then. Go get a job at Buger King where you are qualified to tell someone how to succeed.

Trainers taking credit for their riders very limited success is what is wrong with todays sport. Why don;t you take credit for their failures if you are so great. idiot

Moto112 wrote:

The only thing that is retarded is to keep doing nothing. No one has the answers, it all takes time to figure out. All that needs...

The only thing that is retarded is to keep doing nothing.

No one has the answers, it all takes time to figure out. All that needs to happen now is to identify a possible need. I think most agree that there is a need for something, who knows what. but, something anyway.

jeffro503 wrote:

[b]TIME TO VENT A LITTLE : [/b] Most agree on what? WTF are you talking about? Something needs to be done? You are going to talk...

TIME TO VENT A LITTLE :


Most agree on what? WTF are you talking about? Something needs to be done? You are going to talk to the "pro riders association"??....WTF? HAHA!! Dude , when i first read your original post , i agreed you posted some things that were true ( Things everyone already knows!) About how some taller riders may have a disadvantage on some tracks....and all that shit.

You act like we know nothing about the sport of SX/MX.......you arrogant fucking baffoon! I have forgotten more about this sport than you will ever know! I not only raced bikes for 30+ years , but was a trainer for kids on and off the bike!

Maybe we should get some of the professional trainers in here ( which some do post here) and you can give them the break down on how they should train a rider! OH NO.....wait.......You could save them a lot of time and energy by telling them which guys "will make it" and "Which ones won't".......because of their fucking size! Don't waste your time on the bigger guys.......they are not worth it , is what you are saying correct?

Your ideas of adding weights to bikes and so forth have got to be the stupidest fucking thing i have ever heard. And THEN......you fucktard , have the balls to come in here and give Loudog ( Weston Peick's dad) advice on how his son should race in his MX career?

Are you fucking kidding me?

Jesus Christ.....i'm not sure where the fuck you came from , but where ever it was....please go back there!

Moto112 wrote:

Now we all know why Matt Goerke did not get a good ride after showing the most talent I've ever seen out of a youngster in...

Now we all know why Matt Goerke did not get a good ride after showing the most talent I've ever seen out of a youngster in the 450 class outdoors in 07, it was the factories fears of this moron with loose lips wrecking everything for them!

Jeffro503 As long as you train anyone, they are "persona non grata", and you are to, look it up.

Mr Piecke you and Weston and young Matt Goerke should drop this idiot like he's steaming shit and you both might just make the big time. I think both riders have the stuff, just drop the mental baggage (jeffro503)! This guys attitude and arrogance are more then enough to never get you into a factory hauler. The team mangers want certain types of riders, and this guy is exactly what they, and their boss', distance themselves from, whether a trainer or a rider.

Did I read what he said correctly? Did jeffro503 just say that Weston is doing well is because young Weston listens to this jerk, so now he's starting to come around?

Distance yourselves from this lead weight or you will both go down with him, I've seen that before

Weston is on his way to being great because he wants to be and he has done a whole lot more of his tasks correctly in prepping for his races, and that has nothing to do with you stupid trainer "credit taker", make yourself needed, moron. This jeffro503 guy is not helping anyone one bit, look at Matt Goerke's career I'd have had that kid on real, not satelite, factory equipment a year ago.

Jeffro503 you are a joke, you must be the reason Matt is not on factory equipment and even won a national this year, still, he's not on a big team. How do you justify taking anyones money after wrecking Matts career? How long does young Matt have to keep being fast and showing promise and then brain fade (probably thanks to you) to get on a big team? Not as long as Matt has, he's missing the boat, and racing for peanuts, why don;t you fix that, how about fixing it 2 years ago?.

The morons that dissented and could not even understand this post, that the bigger and smaller guys are at a disadvantage, are the worst part of our sport. We don't need you, especially you Jeffro503 you anti-intellectual idiot, Oh, and Jeffro503 (synonym for dip shit), that Hannah article is 10 years old, I heard it way back then. Go get a job at Buger King where you are qualified to tell someone how to succeed.

Trainers taking credit for their riders very limited success is what is wrong with todays sport. Why don;t you take credit for their failures if you are so great. idiot

Moto112 wrote:

Ever since Jeff ward started winning the writing was on the wall for the big guys that MX was going to be the domain of the...

Ever since Jeff ward started winning the writing was on the wall for the big guys that MX was going to be the domain of the short people.

I want to see anyone that wants to race to be able to have the same mid corner speed and the same corner to corner speed, and right now that ain't the case. The big boys transfer so much weight (that is higher up on their bodies) from the front of the bike to the rear that they are really not riding in the same class with the same advantages as the mighty mites. If we had rules that created an equal playing field I think you'd see different people winning regularly.

Now I'm only just about 1/2" over 6' and about 185 (when trained down to fighting weight), and I fit the current bikes just fine, so don't say I'm suggesting this because I'm one of the big guys but, as a current pro I would still have some disadvantage against the smaller guys. I think Windham and Millsaps must both be phenoms based on the disadvantage that I know they have, even though neither is my favorite rider. That throttle pinning radical kid Josh Grant is my favorite and he fits the bike perfectly.

When I was young, in pro MX we had the 500 class and it was where all the 6'+ boys rode, some of them were even 6' 3"+ and a few over 220 lbs., example; John Finkelday, Alan King, etc. Back then, and now, the little guys could lift weights and train to put on body weight, where the big guys had to stay too skinny and that really hurt them when they crashed. Even back then the little guys had the start advantage and after about 1985 the suspension rebound got more controllable and the forks ridged enough to negate any real strength and larger body that was needed. As soon as Jeff Ward started winning on a 250 (1984 & 1985) it was clear that big bodies were a big handicap and the days of the big guys were all but over. .

Its even worse now! Look at career longevity vs height in MX/SX and you will see exactly what I mean! The tall guys don't last long, with just a few exceptions (Larry ward)! Look at success vs height, there is a even bigger disparity there. Travis Pastrana is a perfect example, the kid was too big to have been on 125's when he was on 125's and still he won. He went over the bars a few times too many, and his skinny body broke instead of rolling like Charmichaels always seemed to do, and it ended his seasons and eventually his career early. Travis needed bigger bikes, with a longer wheelbase to minimize the weight transfer, and keep him from going over the bars, and he needed to get stronger (and weigh more) so he could stay together after a big crash.

Watch the video of Windham beating Charmichael at the 2001 Washougal national. Windhams bars are over the front fender and he looks about a foot too tall to be on the bike. He was leaning forward over the front fender like a ski jumper just to get down the straights. It was a miracle win. He got to the 4-stoke asap and he knew he had to, to stay competitive. It helped until everyone esle got a big thumper also.

The short guys have such an advantage on the start, at most of the races they are at the front and it has to change. Charmichael's 24-moto win steak, was due to hotshots and acceleration, both are due to his combined bike and rider weight being way low. Stewarts streak was due to his outright speed but, both Sewart and Charmichael are short small guys that always start at the front, even if they gate badly, there is no bigger advantage.

The acceleration of the bike with its rider has to be the same for everyone, no matter what the riders body weight!

I want to see the big guys fit their bikes and have the same acceleration and chance to get the hole shot, and just be able to pin it and hang on like the little guys do, and not have to fight the weight transfer from corner to corner and everywhere else.

I have been thinking that we need a second set of bike rules for the larger riders. How about a bike that the little guys are too small to ride well with 23" front wheel and 21" rear. Those larger wheels would lift the bike 1" and necessitate raising the suspension above the wheels another 1". It would also create more mass by increasing the weight of the wheels and that would have to be overcome by the riders strength. Still, how would we prevent the "Charmichael mods" of shrinking the sub frame, lowering the travel and still winning just because he's weighs 100#'s less? We have to have some kind of bike + rider combined wight minimum just like in every other form of motor sport.

So what do you guys think will work and even the field, more displacement, larger wheels, what do the big guys need to be able to have the same speed?

Moto112 wrote:

Now we all know why Matt Goerke did not get a good ride after showing the most talent I've ever seen out of a youngster in...

Now we all know why Matt Goerke did not get a good ride after showing the most talent I've ever seen out of a youngster in the 450 class outdoors in 07, it was the factories fears of this moron with loose lips wrecking everything for them!

Jeffro503 As long as you train anyone, they are "persona non grata", and you are to, look it up.

Mr Piecke you and Weston and young Matt Goerke should drop this idiot like he's steaming shit and you both might just make the big time. I think both riders have the stuff, just drop the mental baggage (jeffro503)! This guys attitude and arrogance are more then enough to never get you into a factory hauler. The team mangers want certain types of riders, and this guy is exactly what they, and their boss', distance themselves from, whether a trainer or a rider.

Did I read what he said correctly? Did jeffro503 just say that Weston is doing well is because young Weston listens to this jerk, so now he's starting to come around?

Distance yourselves from this lead weight or you will both go down with him, I've seen that before

Weston is on his way to being great because he wants to be and he has done a whole lot more of his tasks correctly in prepping for his races, and that has nothing to do with you stupid trainer "credit taker", make yourself needed, moron. This jeffro503 guy is not helping anyone one bit, look at Matt Goerke's career I'd have had that kid on real, not satelite, factory equipment a year ago.

Jeffro503 you are a joke, you must be the reason Matt is not on factory equipment and even won a national this year, still, he's not on a big team. How do you justify taking anyones money after wrecking Matts career? How long does young Matt have to keep being fast and showing promise and then brain fade (probably thanks to you) to get on a big team? Not as long as Matt has, he's missing the boat, and racing for peanuts, why don;t you fix that, how about fixing it 2 years ago?.

The morons that dissented and could not even understand this post, that the bigger and smaller guys are at a disadvantage, are the worst part of our sport. We don't need you, especially you Jeffro503 you anti-intellectual idiot, Oh, and Jeffro503 (synonym for dip shit), that Hannah article is 10 years old, I heard it way back then. Go get a job at Buger King where you are qualified to tell someone how to succeed.

Trainers taking credit for their riders very limited success is what is wrong with todays sport. Why don;t you take credit for their failures if you are so great. idiot

Moto112 wrote:

Ever since Jeff ward started winning the writing was on the wall for the big guys that MX was going to be the domain of the...

Ever since Jeff ward started winning the writing was on the wall for the big guys that MX was going to be the domain of the short people.

I want to see anyone that wants to race to be able to have the same mid corner speed and the same corner to corner speed, and right now that ain't the case. The big boys transfer so much weight (that is higher up on their bodies) from the front of the bike to the rear that they are really not riding in the same class with the same advantages as the mighty mites. If we had rules that created an equal playing field I think you'd see different people winning regularly.

Now I'm only just about 1/2" over 6' and about 185 (when trained down to fighting weight), and I fit the current bikes just fine, so don't say I'm suggesting this because I'm one of the big guys but, as a current pro I would still have some disadvantage against the smaller guys. I think Windham and Millsaps must both be phenoms based on the disadvantage that I know they have, even though neither is my favorite rider. That throttle pinning radical kid Josh Grant is my favorite and he fits the bike perfectly.

When I was young, in pro MX we had the 500 class and it was where all the 6'+ boys rode, some of them were even 6' 3"+ and a few over 220 lbs., example; John Finkelday, Alan King, etc. Back then, and now, the little guys could lift weights and train to put on body weight, where the big guys had to stay too skinny and that really hurt them when they crashed. Even back then the little guys had the start advantage and after about 1985 the suspension rebound got more controllable and the forks ridged enough to negate any real strength and larger body that was needed. As soon as Jeff Ward started winning on a 250 (1984 & 1985) it was clear that big bodies were a big handicap and the days of the big guys were all but over. .

Its even worse now! Look at career longevity vs height in MX/SX and you will see exactly what I mean! The tall guys don't last long, with just a few exceptions (Larry ward)! Look at success vs height, there is a even bigger disparity there. Travis Pastrana is a perfect example, the kid was too big to have been on 125's when he was on 125's and still he won. He went over the bars a few times too many, and his skinny body broke instead of rolling like Charmichaels always seemed to do, and it ended his seasons and eventually his career early. Travis needed bigger bikes, with a longer wheelbase to minimize the weight transfer, and keep him from going over the bars, and he needed to get stronger (and weigh more) so he could stay together after a big crash.

Watch the video of Windham beating Charmichael at the 2001 Washougal national. Windhams bars are over the front fender and he looks about a foot too tall to be on the bike. He was leaning forward over the front fender like a ski jumper just to get down the straights. It was a miracle win. He got to the 4-stoke asap and he knew he had to, to stay competitive. It helped until everyone esle got a big thumper also.

The short guys have such an advantage on the start, at most of the races they are at the front and it has to change. Charmichael's 24-moto win steak, was due to hotshots and acceleration, both are due to his combined bike and rider weight being way low. Stewarts streak was due to his outright speed but, both Sewart and Charmichael are short small guys that always start at the front, even if they gate badly, there is no bigger advantage.

The acceleration of the bike with its rider has to be the same for everyone, no matter what the riders body weight!

I want to see the big guys fit their bikes and have the same acceleration and chance to get the hole shot, and just be able to pin it and hang on like the little guys do, and not have to fight the weight transfer from corner to corner and everywhere else.

I have been thinking that we need a second set of bike rules for the larger riders. How about a bike that the little guys are too small to ride well with 23" front wheel and 21" rear. Those larger wheels would lift the bike 1" and necessitate raising the suspension above the wheels another 1". It would also create more mass by increasing the weight of the wheels and that would have to be overcome by the riders strength. Still, how would we prevent the "Charmichael mods" of shrinking the sub frame, lowering the travel and still winning just because he's weighs 100#'s less? We have to have some kind of bike + rider combined wight minimum just like in every other form of motor sport.

So what do you guys think will work and even the field, more displacement, larger wheels, what do the big guys need to be able to have the same speed?

Adam43 wrote:

You come off a bit like a crazy person, but you actually have made a lot of good points. This is just not a big guys...

You come off a bit like a crazy person, but you actually have made a lot of good points. This is just not a big guys sport, and that is proven by the body types of racers in every class, in every race, every week.


Are there exceptions? Of course, there are tons of bigger guys who have done well. But they are the exception to the rule, numbers don't lie. The biggest factors in determining whether someone is going to be any good at motocross are talent and heart. I don't think anyone can dispute that.


Bikes are made to fit a man about 5'9. Adjustments and compromises are necessary after that. Once someone's weight gets over that 200lb mark, it starts to become more and more of a hindrance on the track. If you compare guys of fairly equal ability on the same track, you can clearly see that the lighter guy scoots out of turns quicker. What you don't see is the extra energy it takes the big guy to get his bike slowed coming into and initiating the first half of the turn.


Its a catch-22. The bigger guy can get himself ripped and strong so that he can throw his bike around like a toy, but then he has to carry around all that extra weight and muscle mass. Or, he can get lean and thin but will likely be weaker and can't last the moto and/or can't force the bike to do what it needs to. The best benefit to being bigger is on rough gnarly tracks where you can really use your strength and leverage.


You just shut up and deal with it, but when you really look at it there isn't much doubt that its better to be a little guy for MX!

mxrep1 wrote:

Im Matt gorekes manager!!!!!!! Matts trainer is his dad and And Keith O,and steve lamson he rides with skinner,hadsell leber and boni at home!So manny dumb...

Im Matt gorekes manager!!!!!!! Matts trainer is his dad and And Keith O,and steve lamson he rides with skinner,hadsell leber and boni at home!So manny dumb azz try to take credit for matts hard work! Jeffoo 503 or what ever his name is,Is not his trainer and it looks like hes trying to make a name off riders who dont work with him.

Bellone wrote:

mxrep1: How can you be his (Goerke) manager if you cannot even spell his name correctly? And who is Hadsell? He rode decent as an amateur...

mxrep1: How can you be his (Goerke) manager if you cannot even spell his name correctly? And who is Hadsell? He rode decent as an amateur, that's it. Nothing repeat nothing as a pro!

flarider wrote:

Anyone remember the good ol days, when idiots like "moto112" would've been put down and run off faster than you could refresh the page? Hazing has...

Anyone remember the good ol days, when idiots like "moto112" would've been put down and run off faster than you could refresh the page?

Hazing has a purpose, and those of you who pissed and cried about it, you're getting what you deserve

Enjoy!

mxrep1 wrote:

Im Matt gorekes manager!!!!!!! Matts trainer is his dad and And Keith O,and steve lamson he rides with skinner,hadsell leber and boni at home!So manny dumb...

Im Matt gorekes manager!!!!!!! Matts trainer is his dad and And Keith O,and steve lamson he rides with skinner,hadsell leber and boni at home!So manny dumb azz try to take credit for matts hard work! Jeffoo 503 or what ever his name is,Is not his trainer and it looks like hes trying to make a name off riders who dont work with him.

mxrep1 wrote:

Im Matt gorekes manager!!!!!!! Matts trainer is his dad and And Keith O,and steve lamson he rides with skinner,hadsell leber and boni at home!So manny dumb...

Im Matt gorekes manager!!!!!!! Matts trainer is his dad and And Keith O,and steve lamson he rides with skinner,hadsell leber and boni at home!So manny dumb azz try to take credit for matts hard work! Jeffoo 503 or what ever his name is,Is not his trainer and it looks like hes trying to make a name off riders who dont work with him.