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I don’t know how to explain this without giving some of you old heads a stoke, but I’ll give it a go.
There is a basic level of natural mobility and natural athleticism needed to unlock your hips. That’s not to say Wardy or Dunge weren’t impressive athletes, who could haul ass with a hunched back. It is to say that some guys are able to work through a physical deficiency and make that up elsewhere. You can be a championship level athlete by working hard on your athletic ability. Or you can be someone who was born with whippy extremities and great body awareness. Both of these types of athletes work hard at the professional level. But genetics are going to give some people an advantage.
Bike ergonomics, setup knowledge, bike attributes, tracks, training, etc have all progressed so much too that it’s hard to compare back to even 20 years ago. So maybe some of these older guys, the DeCosters & Hannah’s, couldn’t even get into this magical position because the bike simply didn’t allow it. Also, RC is not a large man with a large reach…
Where I really disagree with Ryno is that he seems to have made the assumption that anyone possesses the natural ability or time to develop their athleticism and obtain this perfect riding technique. That’s simply not true.
I’ll say it, I’m blessed to be on the more athletic side. I had the opportunity to choose to participate in three different college sports (DIII mind you so I’m nothing even close to special); weightlifting, football & tennis (I only mention what they are to emphasize the mobility and “whippy” characteristics needed, especially in weightlifting). Unlocking my hips just happens, but in the grand scheme of things, I still don’t have what all these champions have to go with it. Which is the drive and work ethic to want to pursue any form of athletics at a level beyond high school.
What I’m really trying to say is this; you need to be a certain degree of mobile and athletic to unlock your hips; and a lot of people aren’t ever going to be there. Unlocking your hips definitely supports increased athletic performance. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU CAN’T BE A GOOD ATHLETE WITHOUT LOOSE HIPS.
Edit: I still think technique makes you faster.
I find it interesting how so many dirt bike riders/racers...who fret over the type grips they have on their bike, or if their levers are a couple mm's to high or to low, or the differences between dunlops and bridgestones and a entire host of other seemingly insignificant things on bike set up in an effort to go as fast as they can...are so quick to dismiss and ignore how-for a lot of us, significant- changes to technique (changes to our body) can and will help ANYONE go faster.
I guess I don't get that...
Rider: I can't ride without half waffle medium compound ODI lock on grips, a bridgstone X30 front with 13 psi and a Dunlop MX33 rear with 14 psi, with my levers 2mm's below horizontal....I go so much faster with that set up, I can hardly ride a bike with Scott grips, Tusk Tires, and horizontal levers...I can definitely tell a difference when there is only 12 psi in my tires too.
Same rider: Technique doesn't matter, ryno doesn't know what he talking about...
I met a kid who moved from CO where he did DH mountain bike racing most of his life and he went from never having ridden a dirt bike to giving the A class guys all they can handle in under a year. Was nutty watching how fast he figured out moto.
Hunched technique also just looks bad. It looked bad 30-40 years ago and looks bad now.
The ready/attack position that almost all athletes assume during their sport relies on a flat back for the exact reason Ryno mentions. You’re far more stabilized and ready to react in that position. To react with a hunched back means you have to engage the core muscles to straighten out the back to then be able to move in a stabilized position, which is wasted time and energy
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I could see that. 1) Obviously comfortable at high speed and letting the bike work under him 2) Obviously comfortable with air time and jumping 3) Obviously talented at carrying momentum through corners 4) Cornering technique is similar with DH accentuating the proper way to use the core to turn a dirtbike. Could totally see a talented DH racer making fast gains in MX.
This is an awesome video, really helps activate and strengthen the muscles you need, if the same muscles burn during this video that burn when you are riding you are doing it right.
(3) Foundation Training original 12 minutes w/ Dr. Eric Goodman - YouTube
Very true, my wife is pretty fast on a DH bike and she started riding a year ago and is already very quick on her moto. I think the biggest thing beginners struggle with is standing especially in the woods, if you are use to mountain biking you are going to be standing a ton right off the bat.
I'm on board with the flat back/tight core and for the most part bending at the hips and certainly on board with elbows out (I don't like to say up, prefer "out" as a better description). I agree with riding on the balls of your feet. What I don't fully agree with is this straight legged, locked knees with feet hanging off the back of the pegs approach. That's about as unathletic of a position as one can be in. Can you imagine a defensive backs football coach trying to teach his corner backs to start with locked knees/legs? Also, sure seems like there is a considerable uptick in Achilles injuries since this approach has been promoted. I think you have to have some knee bend to be in a truly athletic position, even if its a micro-bend, you have to have some knee bend to be in a truly athletic position. Flat back, elbows out, hips back and loose, balls of feet - ok makes sense. Straight legged? Nah, not buying that. Just asking for injury IMHO. Some knee bend is necessary.
Lol, I rode some DH last weekend with a buddy who likes to ride MTB but isn't a MXer. He was crying his legs were so sore from standing. He was blown away that I had no issue with legs burning even if I bombed the whole run without stopping, standing 99% of the way down. Granted I do 300 squats a day, 5 days a week plus ride MX at least 1 day a week. In self-reflecting, I do need to work on standing more for MX. I have no issue doing it riding DH.
I too disagree with a locked out leg/knee position, for the same reasons you mentioned. Is that being advocated for? Certainly Jett appears to be riding with straight legs at times but I kinda doubt they are truly locked
yeah, they certainly aren't riding with locked knees they are slightly bent. One advantage of knee braces is adjusting the lockout to a point that your knees cant quite lock out. Sometime when your riding with your legs barely bent if you hit something or unload just right it will sometime make your knees straighten out to locked accidentally.
I think a lot is being made about this magical,”Unlocking the hips” bullshit. Styles come and go just like whoever is the fast guy at that time. When jett is finished his run in five or six years and some new kid takes over everyone will wanna ride like him too. If you’ve been around a while, you will remember when we all had to ride with elbows up and levers down. Then it was levers, flat and elbows down. For a long time it was let the bike dance around underneath you, and then it was grip like hell with your knees. Just like everything the whole unlocking the hips thing will be history in five years. The only thing I can think of that stands true today just as it did 40 years ago was standing on the balls of your feet. Very hard to do but through the course of a lifetime of riding will probably save you at least one ACL.
I don’t even know why y’all are discussing this. 3 years ago Forkner rode with a hunched back and people would call him sketchy, etc. Hes no longer like that, in fact, if you watch him now especially in Moto 2 at Budds he was with the top guys and looked like he belonged up there. I don’t ever remember him almost wadding his brains out at Budds. That very same guy has been working with Ryno for a 2 months now.
I swear I have heard and watched training videos from The MX Factory and MX Academy where they are discussing straight legs. They sure as hell look straight / locked out knees to me. I know they specifically say to hang your heels off to be lower than the pegs. Its very difficult to hang your heels off the back of the pegs lower than the peg and your hips back without having locked out knees. I wear knee braces that won't let me lock my knees - I hyper extended my left knee 8 years ago and caused a lot of damage requiring surgery. Never wanted to experience that again, so my knee braces are adjusted to where I can't lock out my knees for straight legs. I believe riding on toes with hips back but not completing hanging heels lower than pegs with near straight leg and no knee bend. It puts the body in an unathletic position.
I took a class from both last year and can confirm they both instruct you to keep your legs pretty dang straight (AJ slightly more so). However, what I got from it was they want you learning that way because straightening your legs and dropping your heels a bit really helps to keep your knees back so as you get better at holding a more correct attack positioning you just naturally end up in a knees slightly bent attack position without letting them come forward, if that makes any sense. It felt weird to me also at first.
Keep in mind most of the stuff you see them teach they actually want you to do for 40-60 hours on just flat ground and then another 40-60 hours on a smooth track with nobody else on it (they dont want you trying to race people while your supposed to be focusing on technique).
TLDR: I think the dang near straight legs approach is strictly just trying to get you in the habit of keeping your knees back.
I think Jett has put to rest the argument over whether unlocking the hips is the way to go...the best downhill mountain bike riders also have the same form as Jett.
You don’t understand physiology then. Ryno is out there but he’s100% right here.
Pit Row
So many ass ignorant people ITT...
I don't agree with Ryno on everything, but he is on the money with this. If it doesn't work for you it's because you -
- lack core endurance/control
- poor breathing
- weak, potentially tight hamstrings
I get it's hard and feels awkward, but you don't see people saying "well I know that's how you should deadlift but I'm going to do it differently". Your body and it's mechanics are a science. If you want to flex you spine or rely on quads to do the work that's up to you, but it is without doubt, not the optimal use of your body for the task
I haven't taken a class, but have watched the videos. I get where they are coming from to a certain extent and certainly support to helping riders get better. Knees further back on the bike (by comparison to old school) helps keep the hips from tucking - thus putting more of an attack position. In contrast to that though, knees back too far means heels lower than the pegs and that can lead to Achilles injuries (see Tomac, Rodbell, and Friese this season) and possible knee hyper extension issues. I think there is a happy medium where you can keep riding on balls of feet, knees in a neutral position on the bike (more back than front), knees slightly bent, hips loose, unlocked and back, elbows out. As stated, I agree with the other concepts I just don't agree with having the legs straight (and heels hanging off the back the pegs). Its not athletic and it risks potential injury.
Not saying I'm perfect at this in any way. Its a constant work in progress. What's harder is, when I feel like I'm doing it right then see photos of myself riding, I realize I'm not or when I try to push and go fast I revert to old habits. Having someone taking photos at the track is invaluable as a teaching aid.
No one is coaching that you should have your knees locked. So hyper extension is unlikely. As far as the Achilles injuries. Yes perhaps they will increase as this style is more and more predominant but there’s a million ways to injure something on a dirt bike and riding with improper technique is more likely to cause injury then dropping your heels.
Actually, I think they were coaching that per one of the above posts. Regardless, I think we agree its not ideal to have locked knees. If your heels are dropped, then technically you are riding flat footed - even if riding on your balls of your feet. That's not an athletic position. The point as stated above is to keep knees back, hips untucked so riding in the proper attack position. I agree with that and constantly work on it. That can be done without hanging heels off the pegs. I couldn't imagine playing defensive back and my football coach telling me to be flat footed. Same goes for my basketball coach or my high school baseball coach.
The technique in the sport is constantly evolving, I think we would both agree. I see the hanging the heels evolving over time. JMHO
Dropping your heels is not flat footed in my view. It’s flexing your ankles. You can’t really be flat footed on a dirt bike unless your are riding on your arches or heels.
I promise you guys youre not going to tear your Achilles by riding on the balls of your feet. It’s just a weird thing that happened to Tomac and obviously a few others but it’s not very common.
I’ve followed DH for the past 6 years and I can only remember one or two Achilles years in that time and they take hits like those multiple times in one run and they’re in nothing more than stiff soled shoes.
Forces are not even remotely comparable between DH MTB and motocross
Nobody is saying riding the balls of your feet will cause Achilles injuries. They’re saying dropping the heel below the foot peg increases the chances of doing so. You can ride the balls of your feet and never drop your heels lower than the pegs
I hear what you guys are saying and respect your opinion. I would invite you to do a search on here (Vital) for some of the threads about Achilles tears including the Tomac thread and pay attention to volume of riders who have torn their Achilles. Seems like there were a ton of people saying they have torn theirs. I know several guys I ride with have torn theirs. Athletes tear their Achilles tendons in other sports too, so don't get me wrong I can't put it all on the riding technique. My point in all this is, I think you can still be in a very athletic attack position on the bike with knees bent, knees back, flat back, and heels not dropped. Shit, with respect to DH I'd be more worried about damaging my heel of my foot by smacking it on a rock or stump by hanging it off the peg like that.
Technique evolves over time. Will be interesting to see where this specific thing goes over time.
Not true at all, maybe not comparable trail riding mountain bikes to mx no, but riding a DH track especially at that level has some insanely big hits.
Yeah I don’t really drop my heels as much as I’ve seen tomac do, he along with a lot of pros literally ride on the last row of teeth on the pegs I think that’s the only way you’re getting that crazy amount of flexion.
It’s hard to bend your ankles up much with some bend in their knee in general without a lot of hamstring/calf flexibility which it seems these pros have a ton of.
Good discussion. I tend to visualize this topic and compare to other sports I've played. I use the cornerback as an example in football because they have to be very athletic to play the position - possibly the most athletic position in football. Hip "swivel" is a common term and CBs can't play with stiff hips. They are taught to have a tight core (but not stiff swivel) and flat back in their back pedal. But at no point should their heel drop below their toes when playing. Having your foot in that position isn't athletic. Same could be said for playing basketball or playing shortstop in baseball. You play on the balls of your feet, but you don't drop your heels below your toes. Its not athletic. I was all conference in sports in HS and played Rugby in college. You never wanted to be flat footed or not on the balls of your feet. If your heels were ever at or below your toes, you were at higher risk of injury. If people want to ride that way, then that's their choice. I think being on the balls of feet and not dropping the heels is my preference. To each their own.
To be fair though, outside of top level riders that have torn their Achilles...VERY few of them are riding on the balls of their feet, and even less of them to the extent Tomac (and Lawrence) does...Very few amateur riders actually do ride on the balls of their feet. Most ride on their arches (Including some top level pros). So to blame the Achilles tears on this riding technique is a bit of a stretch...
I guess it'd be interesting to see a picture of the riders feet on the pegs, who have torn an Achilles...I think even though many of the claim to ride on the balls of their feet, that in reality they don't.
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