Bike test real, if editor works for OEM?

swap
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Location
Tustin, CA, USA
12/12/2009 8:38am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:25pm
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it."



The offer WAS made to EVERY team, not just Kawasaki. Kawasaki was the only major team that didn't already have their plans finalized. And the request for photo credit in other magazines is completely false, Frank. There was a misunderstanding about that.


Our job is to gather the best content possible, and to gain the best access possible, for our readers. Here is how our offer went: TransWorld Motocross would like the opportunity to shoot photos and video with your race team before the start of your season. You may use the photos however you wish, free of charge, as long as we are allowed to use them in our magazine and on our web site.


Don't see what this has to do with testing bikes...


Just trying to do my job well, guys.
swizcore
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Fenton, MI, USA
12/12/2009 8:59am
Thanks for the other side swap. Now we can have some useful back and forth.
smc916
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594
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Location
Hesperia, CA, USA
12/12/2009 9:12am
Wow lots of negative comment about Swap and TMWX. Transworld and RacerX are the only magazine I subscribe to, sometimes I'll flip though the other ones when I'm in the supermarket to check out the fanny pack shootouts or what tire iron is the best. If Swap pulled up next to most of you guys at the track you'd probably be falling over yourselves to shake his hand and tell him how much you like his magazine.
oldx
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3046
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Location
Camano Island, WA, USA
12/12/2009 9:13am
swap wrote:
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it." The...
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it."



The offer WAS made to EVERY team, not just Kawasaki. Kawasaki was the only major team that didn't already have their plans finalized. And the request for photo credit in other magazines is completely false, Frank. There was a misunderstanding about that.


Our job is to gather the best content possible, and to gain the best access possible, for our readers. Here is how our offer went: TransWorld Motocross would like the opportunity to shoot photos and video with your race team before the start of your season. You may use the photos however you wish, free of charge, as long as we are allowed to use them in our magazine and on our web site.


Don't see what this has to do with testing bikes...


Just trying to do my job well, guys.
You are failing to do your job well. IMHO

The Shop

swizcore
Posts
4235
Joined
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Location
Fenton, MI, USA
12/12/2009 9:18am
swap wrote:
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it." The...
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it."



The offer WAS made to EVERY team, not just Kawasaki. Kawasaki was the only major team that didn't already have their plans finalized. And the request for photo credit in other magazines is completely false, Frank. There was a misunderstanding about that.


Our job is to gather the best content possible, and to gain the best access possible, for our readers. Here is how our offer went: TransWorld Motocross would like the opportunity to shoot photos and video with your race team before the start of your season. You may use the photos however you wish, free of charge, as long as we are allowed to use them in our magazine and on our web site.


Don't see what this has to do with testing bikes...


Just trying to do my job well, guys.
oldx wrote:
You are failing to do your job well. IMHO
Maybe you and swap have different perceptions on what his job entails?
Outsider
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10628
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Location
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
12/12/2009 9:24am
smc916 wrote:
Wow lots of negative comment about Swap and TMWX. Transworld and RacerX are the only magazine I subscribe to, sometimes I'll flip though the other ones...
Wow lots of negative comment about Swap and TMWX. Transworld and RacerX are the only magazine I subscribe to, sometimes I'll flip though the other ones when I'm in the supermarket to check out the fanny pack shootouts or what tire iron is the best. If Swap pulled up next to most of you guys at the track you'd probably be falling over yourselves to shake his hand and tell him how much you like his magazine.
If Swap pulled up next to most of you guys at the track you'd probably be falling over yourselves to shake his hand and tell him how much you like his magazine

I doubt it... lol. I have been to the track many times over the years and looked over at the guys next to me only to notice its Swap and friends. Just like any of us (except with new bikes!), enjoying a day out riding the local track. Met him a couple times, he's just a motohead.
Don't really read the mags much anymore so, can't really compare, but, I do know from experience that if I wanted to see a bike test, I'd probably look at MXA or Dirt Rider first...

JMO.
smc916
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594
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Location
Hesperia, CA, USA
12/12/2009 9:26am
smc916 wrote:
Wow lots of negative comment about Swap and TMWX. Transworld and RacerX are the only magazine I subscribe to, sometimes I'll flip though the other ones...
Wow lots of negative comment about Swap and TMWX. Transworld and RacerX are the only magazine I subscribe to, sometimes I'll flip though the other ones when I'm in the supermarket to check out the fanny pack shootouts or what tire iron is the best. If Swap pulled up next to most of you guys at the track you'd probably be falling over yourselves to shake his hand and tell him how much you like his magazine.
Outsider wrote:
[b]If Swap pulled up next to most of you guys at the track you'd probably be falling over yourselves to shake his hand and tell him...
If Swap pulled up next to most of you guys at the track you'd probably be falling over yourselves to shake his hand and tell him how much you like his magazine

I doubt it... lol. I have been to the track many times over the years and looked over at the guys next to me only to notice its Swap and friends. Just like any of us (except with new bikes!), enjoying a day out riding the local track. Met him a couple times, he's just a motohead.
Don't really read the mags much anymore so, can't really compare, but, I do know from experience that if I wanted to see a bike test, I'd probably look at MXA or Dirt Rider first...

JMO.
Exactly, he's a motohead, just like all of us.
oshow
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4083
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Location
USA
12/12/2009 9:50am
swap wrote:
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it." The...
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it."



The offer WAS made to EVERY team, not just Kawasaki. Kawasaki was the only major team that didn't already have their plans finalized. And the request for photo credit in other magazines is completely false, Frank. There was a misunderstanding about that.


Our job is to gather the best content possible, and to gain the best access possible, for our readers. Here is how our offer went: TransWorld Motocross would like the opportunity to shoot photos and video with your race team before the start of your season. You may use the photos however you wish, free of charge, as long as we are allowed to use them in our magazine and on our web site.


Don't see what this has to do with testing bikes...


Just trying to do my job well, guys.
It's called business.
Good Business
oshow
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USA
12/12/2009 9:52am
swap wrote:
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it." The...
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it."



The offer WAS made to EVERY team, not just Kawasaki. Kawasaki was the only major team that didn't already have their plans finalized. And the request for photo credit in other magazines is completely false, Frank. There was a misunderstanding about that.


Our job is to gather the best content possible, and to gain the best access possible, for our readers. Here is how our offer went: TransWorld Motocross would like the opportunity to shoot photos and video with your race team before the start of your season. You may use the photos however you wish, free of charge, as long as we are allowed to use them in our magazine and on our web site.


Don't see what this has to do with testing bikes...


Just trying to do my job well, guys.
oldx wrote:
You are failing to do your job well. IMHO
Maybe you can start a magazine when you grow up.
RonSkj
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Radiator Springs, CA, USA
Fantasy
12/12/2009 9:56am
Imagine that.. A magazine shooting photos, to be used in it's magazine. Whats the world coming too ..
Chili
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Winnipeg, CA
12/12/2009 10:07am
swap wrote:
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it." The...
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it."



The offer WAS made to EVERY team, not just Kawasaki. Kawasaki was the only major team that didn't already have their plans finalized. And the request for photo credit in other magazines is completely false, Frank. There was a misunderstanding about that.


Our job is to gather the best content possible, and to gain the best access possible, for our readers. Here is how our offer went: TransWorld Motocross would like the opportunity to shoot photos and video with your race team before the start of your season. You may use the photos however you wish, free of charge, as long as we are allowed to use them in our magazine and on our web site.


Don't see what this has to do with testing bikes...


Just trying to do my job well, guys.
So the magazines now have to provide comp images to be able to gain access to the teams to help them promote their products and teams?

Pretty tough for any photographer to hope to make a living in this sport if one of the major publications in the industry is offering to work for every team out there for free.
rucka356
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Knoxville, TN, USA
12/12/2009 10:57am
Sounds like another case of the big fish using his resources to out swim the little fish that doesn't have the same resources. Kind of like Walmart vs Joes Hardware.
RonSkj
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Fantasy
12/12/2009 11:02am Edited Date/Time 12/13/2009 1:07pm
Ozzy
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12/12/2009 11:06am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:25pm
My 2 cents........
For me, I know, like, & have worked
with both people.
Firstly, they're both good people, regardless.
Being on the side of speaking ones mind from
time to time, I think that whatever happened
is between them if even at all.
Many times the behind the scenes stuff comes
forwards, but many times it shouldn't.
I think this is 1 of those times.........
Again, both are good people, & Frank's reputation
proceeds him, likewise goes for Donn as well.
I've learned that the foxhole we're in here is actually
pretty damn small, so it's best to look to your right
or left & work it out. Most times the good & bad is
right next to ya, so communication is key.
Again, regardless of how she went, ya gotta talk it thru.
This however isn't the place I feel.
Just my 2 cents.........
Dave O.Wink
motoxhead
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12/12/2009 11:49am
I for one am glad someone is out there trying to get some new content during the pre-season. Everyone else has been producing jack all.

NFL and such has extensive pre-season coverage. The average non-industry motohead wants to be in on what happens during these periods.

Thanks Donn.
lucero10x
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Location
Las Vegas, NV, USA
12/12/2009 12:29pm
swap wrote:
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it." The...
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it."



The offer WAS made to EVERY team, not just Kawasaki. Kawasaki was the only major team that didn't already have their plans finalized. And the request for photo credit in other magazines is completely false, Frank. There was a misunderstanding about that.


Our job is to gather the best content possible, and to gain the best access possible, for our readers. Here is how our offer went: TransWorld Motocross would like the opportunity to shoot photos and video with your race team before the start of your season. You may use the photos however you wish, free of charge, as long as we are allowed to use them in our magazine and on our web site.


Don't see what this has to do with testing bikes...


Just trying to do my job well, guys.
I wonder how long that has been a standing offer for all the OEM's i.e. number of years. I wonder if the economic situation forced Kawasaki to jump on this offer.

Maybe Frank should have seen this coming. Media companies are imagery. TWMX is like Penthouse, the articles are good, but that isn't why you buy the magazine. The only way to survive is to keep offering quality products at an exceptional value and Hoppen got beat to the punch on this deal.

On the other side I know how it feels to be underbid. I know how it feels to work for less then I want. The customers that are busting my balls right now are going to be the first one's I don't call back when the economy turns around. And they are the one's who won't get a break, AT ALL. The clients who can give or take will still get a fair price when times are better. Yeah, it's personal.



stillwelding
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12/12/2009 12:40pm Edited Date/Time 12/12/2009 12:52pm
Assihoppen wrote:
Hi guys. I thought I did post this, but I cannot see it. So if it was already posted, I like to apologize for this second...
Hi guys. I thought I did post this, but I cannot see it. So if it was already posted, I like to apologize for this second post.
Anyhooo, I wanted to hear from you what the common take of this here is:

We had to bid a 2010 MX/SX team photo shoot of one of the big 4 Manufacturers.
To do this professional, you have to prep the track the days before, get jumps and corners set up photo-friendly, own or rent a lot of the latest equipment. cameras, lights, reflectorsetc, hire 2-3 assistants, shoot all day to end up with approx. 1.500 perfect shots and spent 1-2 days in post to color correct and clean up the images. It takes the better part of a week and the expenses do end up easily more than a new 450 costs.
I Have done this since a decade and I knew someday, someone might come in cheaper or better or both.

Anyhow, the job got to a bidder who offered to do this cheaper.
Hard pill to swallow, but this is business and after I got over my hurt pride ( I thought) I figures to let it go and focus on the next thing. Until I found out that the bid was real cheap and the conditions got me going again.

The offer was to do the job for FREE!

Wondering how this could be, I asked and was told that Maeda offered to do this without charge, but all images used would need to have his/transworld credit attached.

I still do not know what to think about this?

I would have no problems if this would be offered by a competing freelance who is not proficient in math and business skills and it was an error of him, just trying to get the food into a door.

But this is supposed to be an independent magazine. Not Red Rider, Riders of Kawasaki or Team Green News. TWMXis to be an independent, editorial magazine doing stories, shoot outs and tests. What happened to the ethics in journalism? Working for one of the companies you are supposed to judge their products seems like a conflict of interest to me.
I used to jump to the shoot out test of every magazine (MX or not) to find out what is really the best, what is weak, what to watch out for etc. Taking it in as an unbiased, objective result or the grand jury of tester who do it every day.
How can an editor at a magazine that tests and rates competitive brands of product be working for one of those manufacturers? Is getting credit of the images the only thing they are getting? After all, however they do it, they will spent more than just time. I just got a totally new point of view.
Beside that, how will any of the other manufacturers feel, if this brand finishes ahead of them in the TWMX 2010 MX shootout? How will the management of TWMX answer to them, if that happens?
Do readers trust Maeda'ss ability to be fair in bike tests?

I work for 3 of 4 OEM and if I would have to do a shootout, there is no way I would be unbiased. Even if I tried. That 4th one would have a hard time with me.

I asked these questions to other magazines and they all shook their head, giving some strong answers. Understandable. They will not get neutral images from this. Good luck to the manufacturer in getting them using these pictures if they have to credit competing mags on it.

In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it.
If Maeda wants to do the freelance work, he should commit to it to 100%, become self employed and step away from the editor position at an independent magazine, opening this job for someone who is not tied in with a manufacturer. Makes you wonder how independent they have been in the past at all?

But hey, maybe this is still just my hurt pride, over a lost job, talking?

That is why I ask it here to see what you guys think about this.

Thanks for reading

Frank Hoppen
I've appreciated your work in the past. I'm sorry that we won't be seeing any of it in the future. As a good friend once told me. Watch what you have to say in public, because were all "Robbin' the same train".
And I do think the product evaluations are still valid even though the Editor is "working" for the OEM. They're all "working" for the OEM (or aftermarket comp.) at an "Enthusiast" publication. People are looking at product and product evaluations at an enthusiast publication, they're not looking for "News" per se.
bryan
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Location
Temecula, CA, USA
12/12/2009 1:57pm
Sounds like a crappy situation and I don't know how I feel about it. I'm a freelance photographer too and guys that are much better than me are cutting their rates and taking gigs I used to get, other shoots are going to unpaid interns or inhouse photographers. I think stillwelding's comment above about "Robbin' the same train" is 100% correct. When money slows down, people start working outside their normal niche and stepping on toes. No one's really benefitting from it, just maintaining.

When your budget gets cut, expenses with hard-to-measure returns get cut first... photography and ads are usually pretty high up on the list. I hate to assume too much, but for all we know this shoot could have been super important for TWMX to get... TWQUAD already got clipped... we just don't know.

Can't blame you for asking for opinions, it stings when a client is willing to go with a lesser product (Sorry Swap!) in order to save a couple bucks. But If people are willing to do your job for free, there's probably a reason for it. Sometimes when the economy changes, even temporarily, your business model should be adjusted too.
Brtp4
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Bend, OR, USA
12/12/2009 2:10pm
Was it a bike test, or a team photo shoot?
DrSweden
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Location
Stockholm, SE
12/12/2009 2:11pm
Damn, this is a crappy situation. Everyone should totally get Assihoppens situation, it seems it sux to be a photographer in general these days? Or at least it seems hard to make a decent living. Also, you see TWMX angle.

I honestly don't know what's right here? I envy the guy who has the "answer".
BobbyM
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Location
USA
12/12/2009 2:25pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:26pm
Assihoppen wrote:
Hi guys. I thought I did post this, but I cannot see it. So if it was already posted, I like to apologize for this second...
Hi guys. I thought I did post this, but I cannot see it. So if it was already posted, I like to apologize for this second post.
Anyhooo, I wanted to hear from you what the common take of this here is:

We had to bid a 2010 MX/SX team photo shoot of one of the big 4 Manufacturers.
To do this professional, you have to prep the track the days before, get jumps and corners set up photo-friendly, own or rent a lot of the latest equipment. cameras, lights, reflectorsetc, hire 2-3 assistants, shoot all day to end up with approx. 1.500 perfect shots and spent 1-2 days in post to color correct and clean up the images. It takes the better part of a week and the expenses do end up easily more than a new 450 costs.
I Have done this since a decade and I knew someday, someone might come in cheaper or better or both.

Anyhow, the job got to a bidder who offered to do this cheaper.
Hard pill to swallow, but this is business and after I got over my hurt pride ( I thought) I figures to let it go and focus on the next thing. Until I found out that the bid was real cheap and the conditions got me going again.

The offer was to do the job for FREE!

Wondering how this could be, I asked and was told that Maeda offered to do this without charge, but all images used would need to have his/transworld credit attached.

I still do not know what to think about this?

I would have no problems if this would be offered by a competing freelance who is not proficient in math and business skills and it was an error of him, just trying to get the food into a door.

But this is supposed to be an independent magazine. Not Red Rider, Riders of Kawasaki or Team Green News. TWMXis to be an independent, editorial magazine doing stories, shoot outs and tests. What happened to the ethics in journalism? Working for one of the companies you are supposed to judge their products seems like a conflict of interest to me.
I used to jump to the shoot out test of every magazine (MX or not) to find out what is really the best, what is weak, what to watch out for etc. Taking it in as an unbiased, objective result or the grand jury of tester who do it every day.
How can an editor at a magazine that tests and rates competitive brands of product be working for one of those manufacturers? Is getting credit of the images the only thing they are getting? After all, however they do it, they will spent more than just time. I just got a totally new point of view.
Beside that, how will any of the other manufacturers feel, if this brand finishes ahead of them in the TWMX 2010 MX shootout? How will the management of TWMX answer to them, if that happens?
Do readers trust Maeda'ss ability to be fair in bike tests?

I work for 3 of 4 OEM and if I would have to do a shootout, there is no way I would be unbiased. Even if I tried. That 4th one would have a hard time with me.

I asked these questions to other magazines and they all shook their head, giving some strong answers. Understandable. They will not get neutral images from this. Good luck to the manufacturer in getting them using these pictures if they have to credit competing mags on it.

In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it.
If Maeda wants to do the freelance work, he should commit to it to 100%, become self employed and step away from the editor position at an independent magazine, opening this job for someone who is not tied in with a manufacturer. Makes you wonder how independent they have been in the past at all?

But hey, maybe this is still just my hurt pride, over a lost job, talking?

That is why I ask it here to see what you guys think about this.

Thanks for reading

Frank Hoppen
it sounds like donn is trading logo placement for money...not for a good review on their scooters.

for that matter let's hope he isn't wheeling and dealing with the chinese mx corp....future winner of the 350 shootout in may. Wink


too bad you guys couldn't work together, maybe you could have still placed the photo shoot for a reduced fee and donn could still have had the logo placement.

times are tough and you have to get creative...and when times are tough the tough get creative? something like that....
12/12/2009 4:36pm
Brtp4 wrote:
Was it a bike test, or a team photo shoot?
Team shoot images I believe.
pitbike502
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4509
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Location
Syracuse, NY, USA
12/12/2009 4:37pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:26pm
you guys are still going off on something were all guilty of, giving our own business to the higher evil.

please try to understand this simple fact / scenario. i have been on here many times bitching left and right about online internet sales driving local dealerships out of business. this is essentially the same idea. it costs frank (playing joe blow honda dealer) "x" amount of dollars to produce "x" pics for kawasaki. it costs kawasaki "x" amount of dollars for those pictures. twmx (playing "moto insert clever name here internet dealer" offers the same service at a substantially less cost while gaining benefit in a different direction. it is a dark economic world we are in right now and only the strong will survive. frank has extensive history in our sport and he should be fine, but this is a direct hit where it hurts.

in a more generic scenario, how many of you shop for groceries at walmart instead of piggly wiggly / wegmans / p&c / food lion / etc... i bet you have no problem handing over your money to national corporation rather your hometown produce supplier.

im just inserting my thoughts, it still sucks, it could be me. but oviously twmx puts out a quality product, theres a lot of people buying it. in one way or another i bet more than half of us have a subscription. getting a free one by buying one of their dvd's or something at the track of theirs counts. i didnt see anyone bashing donn when he was trying to gain support from his brother on here. you shouldnt bash him now.
BobbyM
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21436
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Location
USA
12/12/2009 11:00pm
mxav8r wrote:
"Swap" seems to be a real piece of work. Mr. Hoppen, you are a incredible photographer and Swap couldn't hold your jock strap in that regard...
"Swap" seems to be a real piece of work. Mr. Hoppen, you are a incredible photographer and Swap couldn't hold your jock strap in that regard. TWMX has NO credibility when unbiased opinions are called for in a "test". It's painfully obvious, the staff of TWMX worry more about getting free shit then they do about actually providing unbiased editorials.


p.s. His magazine sucks too Smile
fuck off
BobbyM
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21436
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12/12/2009 11:04pm
lostboy819 wrote:
TWMX is not a mag that people buy for their bike tests they are more like the National Enquirer of motocross mags. Swap is nothing more...
TWMX is not a mag that people buy for their bike tests they are more like the National Enquirer of motocross mags. Swap is nothing more than a TMZ style "reporter" and I dont think many people put much stock in any of his bike tests, I know I sure dont.
RMZ819 wrote:
Swap is all about the free swag. That dude is nothing more than a poser.
a japanese one at that....he is always posing on his scooter, with his gansta lean in the pits, nikon pose. yup.
BobbyM
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USA
12/12/2009 11:14pm
swap wrote:
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it." The...
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it."



The offer WAS made to EVERY team, not just Kawasaki. Kawasaki was the only major team that didn't already have their plans finalized. And the request for photo credit in other magazines is completely false, Frank. There was a misunderstanding about that.


Our job is to gather the best content possible, and to gain the best access possible, for our readers. Here is how our offer went: TransWorld Motocross would like the opportunity to shoot photos and video with your race team before the start of your season. You may use the photos however you wish, free of charge, as long as we are allowed to use them in our magazine and on our web site.


Don't see what this has to do with testing bikes...


Just trying to do my job well, guys.
oldx wrote:
You are failing to do your job well. IMHO
80+ year old cow trailers isn't really swaps target audience...just sayin
mmcmx
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Perafita, Catalunya, PE
12/13/2009 4:32am
Hard times for freelancers. Not just in mx. Companies are not ONG's. Shit happens.
txmxer
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Weatherford, TX, USA
12/13/2009 7:25am
I think Ozzy and Stillwelding had some good points.

Times are tough and that's not going to change anytime soon.

I don't know much about any of the players, so my comment is general only.

Character shows when times get tough like this. Karma may be bullshit, but how you treat people and the choices people make when things are tough will not be forgotten.
Cygnus
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12/13/2009 7:33am
Time to start shooting some weddings.
Digger437
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Wisconsin Rapids, WI, USA
12/13/2009 7:50am
The frustrating part in today's economy is loyalty! I bust my balls daily to give the best service for my customers. Joe blow competitor comes to my customer at a reduced rate and said customer jumps ship. It sucks. Working on commision, all I can do is work harder and smarter and hopefully good things come of it.

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