Why Triumph is starting with a 250

philG
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7/17/2023 12:10pm

If you are coming to AMA now, you can be top 10 on anything, in 450, but if your 250 sucks, it will suck so bad it wont sell . 

450 should have come first , even a bad 450 is good enough. Look at Kenny. 

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McG194
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7/17/2023 12:50pm
philG wrote:
If you are coming to AMA now, you can be top 10 on anything, in 450, but if your 250 sucks, it will suck so bad...

If you are coming to AMA now, you can be top 10 on anything, in 450, but if your 250 sucks, it will suck so bad it wont sell . 

450 should have come first , even a bad 450 is good enough. Look at Kenny. 

That's somewhat a loser mentality. I want a company to be supremely confident in the 250 they are going to build. If you are worried your bike is going to suck don't even fire up the CAD system. 

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DonM
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7/17/2023 1:08pm
philG wrote:
If you are coming to AMA now, you can be top 10 on anything, in 450, but if your 250 sucks, it will suck so bad...

If you are coming to AMA now, you can be top 10 on anything, in 450, but if your 250 sucks, it will suck so bad it wont sell . 

450 should have come first , even a bad 450 is good enough. Look at Kenny. 

So you are using Triumph to dig on the US outdoors....nice...

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Spoonguy
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7/17/2023 1:17pm
So if this all comes to fruition we will have, KTM, Gas Gas, Husky, yamaha,Honda,Kawasaki,Suzuki(sort of) Triumph,Beta and Ducati in moto! There is no other series...

So if this all comes to fruition we will have, KTM, Gas Gas, Husky, yamaha,Honda,Kawasaki,Suzuki(sort of) Triumph,Beta and Ducati in moto! There is no other series that can boast this much manufacturer involvement. Not motoGP, WSBK, Indy car, Nascar, or F1. I mean Indy car is now a spec series with two engine manufacturers. F1 is a closed shop where they don't want any outside competition and limit it to 20 cars, 10 teams. Moto is entering a new golden age as the more manufacturers the more the riders will be worth.  This kind of diversity is great!

I doubt all the Japanese factories keep making MX bikes for long.

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The Shop

7/17/2023 1:20pm

Dont expect a Moto 2 engine to be a smaller version of a Moto GP engine.  Its a spec powerplant based off of production engines to allow a more even playing field and reliability.  Honda CBR600RR engines were replaced by Triumph.  Supposedly a World Supersport 600 engine has more power than a Moto 2 engine.

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McG194
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7/17/2023 2:44pm
Dont expect a Moto 2 engine to be a smaller version of a Moto GP engine.  Its a spec powerplant based off of production engines to...

Dont expect a Moto 2 engine to be a smaller version of a Moto GP engine.  Its a spec powerplant based off of production engines to allow a more even playing field and reliability.  Honda CBR600RR engines were replaced by Triumph.  Supposedly a World Supersport 600 engine has more power than a Moto 2 engine.

I don't believe I ever said it was going to be a world beater and have 450 level horsepower. 

Make what you know, they know all the egghead numbers like the volumetric efficiency and the BMEP along with piston speed among other things. They have a good baseline to start with so they are halfway there. 

philG
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7/17/2023 3:00pm Edited Date/Time 7/17/2023 3:01pm
philG wrote:
If you are coming to AMA now, you can be top 10 on anything, in 450, but if your 250 sucks, it will suck so bad...

If you are coming to AMA now, you can be top 10 on anything, in 450, but if your 250 sucks, it will suck so bad it wont sell . 

450 should have come first , even a bad 450 is good enough. Look at Kenny. 

DonM wrote:

So you are using Triumph to dig on the US outdoors....nice...

If the team had launched this season in outdoors, they are top 10 every race it doesnt break, thats  a fact . 

.Launching in SX, if your bike sucks, its going to suck in a way you cant hide, and that is not good. 

If they had Masterpool on it , that would have been insane.. maybe they will pick him up for outdoors next season.

The Moto2 engine is a rev limited road bike motor with a few tweaks, its a 'spec' motor, same as Indy engines used to be, will run for ever, and they are all the same, 

They are entering a world of 5 hour motors and all sorts of things they neve had to deal with, if its on the pace , and reliable out of the box, i will be amazed. 

They could be the next KTM, and the japanese seem to be falling away , Ducati coming too, its a big swing back to europe. 

I did hear recently from a reliable source , that they have been ragging it round a local track for a while, with a guy that can break anything, but i will give them there due, the secrecy has been impressive. 

 

soggy
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7/17/2023 9:28pm

Starting with a250 is a mistake in my opinion. They would have an easier time marketing and selling a 450. 

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ando
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7/18/2023 12:01am

Bear - does the Desmo valve train add any significant height over a spring setup?  

ando
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7/18/2023 12:12am
philG wrote:
If you are coming to AMA now, you can be top 10 on anything, in 450, but if your 250 sucks, it will suck so bad...

If you are coming to AMA now, you can be top 10 on anything, in 450, but if your 250 sucks, it will suck so bad it wont sell . 

450 should have come first , even a bad 450 is good enough. Look at Kenny. 

Alternative view…

If they are confident they can build a strong enough engine, maybe it allows them to get away with a less refined frame and suspension package first time around?

Bearuno
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7/18/2023 2:22am Edited Date/Time 7/18/2023 2:26am
ando wrote:

Bear - does the Desmo valve train add any significant height over a spring setup?  

 Umm, well, Yes and No.

Yes in that a few mms can be a substantial amount, and, conversely, it could be regarded as  f**k all by some. 

Can't say I've put a V4 Ducati Head beside the Valve Spring Grantourismo head. Nor against the height of a Japanese,  BMW or MV multi. Those comparisons might be something for me to pursue as a bit of a project.

I'd love to see the respective Cylinder head heights of Ducatis Desmo MotoGP bike, and the Pneumatic Valve Japanese MotoGP bikes. With the Pneumatic gubbins, I'd be surprised they are not just a bit higher than the Desmos.

Here's RH side pictures of a V4 Desmo Engine, and the V4 Valve spring engine  :

 

\/ Desmo \/  Ducati Superleggera V4 Desmo engine - RH side

 2020-ducati-granturismo-engine-Valve Spring engine RH side look-18

  /\ Valve Spring /\

It's not an easy comparison. 

I have read of people transferring one engine to another's chassis - buggered if I can recall which. 

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