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Matthes said Webb brought his own suspension to a couple races and KTM begrudgingly let him run it until Plessinger also wanted to bring his own then they shut it down. At least that's what I thought I heard them say.
So, who did it for him?
I don't think Coop was out in the garage swapping shims himself.
Probably AEO (REP)
Mark Johnson.
Don't know for sure if he did the actual shim stacking, but I know Mark made Cooper some linkage and knuckles last year.
REP does some stuff for the KTM team though.
Enzo KYB
Don't think they would let him run KYB stuff on that bike...
Suspension isn't rocket science. Once you know the basic of shim stack designs, different spring rates... what changes where in the stack affect what- from there it's pretty simple. Now pulling it apart and trying subtle changes over and over is a pain. But, there is no other way. Just get in there and do it.
The Shop
DeCal Works Huge Plastic Inventory of UFO and Polisport kits.
Free shipping: VITALMX
Luxon 4-Post Bar Mounts
$189.95 - $239.95
REP uses suspension dynamometers that calculate the proper compression and rebound valving for rider skill weight and type of tracks.
KYB internals me hears.
I have heard this as well… Not sure Enzo, Technical Touch or who ever but this has been said before.
I worked in the test and measurement industry with the folks that developed most if not all the tech you see in Shock Dyno's, Vibration tables, FFT devices etc. ... these devices don't calculate "valving". They can give you some data... but it's the butt dyno that tells you if it's working for you. I actually had a long talk with the guy running the R&D lab for Fox shocks and Rock shox's before that. He said "nice toys... but that's about it".
Probably just for this one event, but saw this on IG
https://www.instagram.com/p/CumRZbQgUY9/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&ig…
There might be a reason they posted this
Yep and I can tell you they have one hell of a setup for the technical touch KYB we're on our third revision for my son it's absolutely amazing!!!
It ain t rocket science man. Don't let anyone tell you it is. It's pretty simple stuff from a technology stand point. Shim stacks/ low speed/ high speed (rebound and compression) / cross overs/ bleeds/ spring rates/ linkage ratios. It's not some super secret stuff. Heck, the mountain bike stuff - that Mike McAndrews (who started Factory Connect & is at Specialized bikes now) works on is ahead of what you get in a standard fork and shock for a motorcycle.
Now, getting the perfect setup for each track... it takes time/ trial and error. But, once you understand what button to push.. and what each button does... it isn't rocket science. You need a rider that is taught what's inside the shock/forks. That is educated on what each button does. And can communicate to the guys doing the work what he likes or dislikes. That's the hard part.
Its definitely rocket science to me.
Pretty sure he was still running air.
In theory it sounds easy, until you are 15 mv and bv changes in and just starting to get your forks to work well with your shock. And that was starting with good recommended base line settings. Not a fun or easy road to go down
Neezer?
I’m an engineer at Fox and disagree that they are just nice toys. We, along with every other suspension manufacturer, use dynos every day to develop and tune. Ultimately it is the ride evaluation that is the final say, but dynos are an integral part of the tuning process to help us get to a good setting, faster.
They can be... but they are not a be all end all. Good for lab work... but when you're in the field getting a setting it's good old fashion butt dyno work.
Yes I know Neezer.
If you want to dig into the test & measurement world deeper... go meet with this company. They are in San Jose. They build the tools. They write the FPGA and DSP algo's. Look at their customer list.
https://www.crystalinstruments.com/
While it’s not rocket science, there are plenty of hacks out there taking peoples money, as they experiment with their new found hobby. There’s plenty of room for error and the reputable suspension tuners have already learned what really works and what doesn’t…
Most people do not have the time/ tools or basic know-how to try and take apart their suspension to experiment with changes and what they think works.
There’s good reason why professional race teams have tuners on payroll to keep the riders happy. If it were easy, anyone could do it.
With that said, what works well for one guy, doesn’t always work well for the next one. Getting the forks/ shock working together is the important part of chassis set up.
I am pretty knowledgeable and can rebuild 4-stroke motors, 2-stroke motors and I have zero desire to dive into suspension valving. It takes a lot of time pulling it apart to swap shims and ride it, over and over…
Pit Row
Hello Chad Reed, that dude knows the ins and outs of bike setup
I agree with with you.
Infact, I started doing my own stuff because the folks I paid to do it missed the mark over and over. And when I'd bring it back to them for a adjustment..they would get irked. So, I said forget this.... Took the forks apart, pulled the shim stacks out and measured them... laid it out in an excel spread sheet. Had a 15 min conversation with a friend about concepts around valving stacks (he ran the powersports division at a well known shock company) and I never have needed anyone else to do it for me. Yes, lots of trial and error. Learning about what feel I like, and how to get it. Changing simple things like a pivot shim size..than riding it and feeling the difference. Did it do what I expected? Than when close how to dial it in even closer with small changes... one or two shims. And feeling the effects of those subtle changes. Did it do what I expected? So now I know what buttons to push. I actually use a lot of 15 thickness shims in my shock stacks.
But to your point... what I like someone else may hate.
Not to be a dick, and maybe I'm taking your posts the wrong way, but dude you are coming across like a complete arrogant ass. Like you broke the code that many brilliant minds before you haven't broken.
Yeah of course there are hacks and people taking advantage, but there is no simple secret sauce. If you are so good at this incredibly simple theory of dirt bike suspension, start your own company and drive all the others out of business.
I'm trying to get people to just do it themselves. Learn... it's not hard.
These "tuners" ... not all but a lot of them... Make it out to be some sort of magic. It's not!
PT is right it’s not rocket science. But knowing what you actually need to change compared to what your feeling can be lost in translation. Your suspension set up is limited by how good your ‘feel’ is.
I agree Soggy. The "feel" gets better often when you make changes and find out what it did.
I'm not trying to be arrogant... I want to simplify it actually so people that have an interest try doing it. And I'd never start a suspension service company. I do it to get what I want from a setup that I couldn't get as a customer. Zero interest in it as a business.
It's not Magic but the data the larger reputable tuners have at their disposal is irreplaceable I don't want to spend the time ripping my bike apart I'd rather ride it! Their base settings get you close then you fine tune them after that during the service intervals suspension is only as good as your feedback to the tuner!
I used to rebuild shocks for the Porsche crowd. When building the same exact shocks and testing them, I was surprised how different some where on the Dyno. Our thing was selling perfectly matched sets. We ended up building a dozen shocks and pairing them up instead of re-valving a set to match. I always wondered this on MX front forks/shocks and if people tested for indifferences even with the same settings? We would also include Dyno charts for each shock. Does anyone do this type service when you get your motorcycle suspension done nowadays?
I saw a vid where a shop was using a dyno as a quality control tool to address what you're talking about. Which is a great use for a dyno.
A follow up question I'd have is wouldn't the rebound/ compression clickers on todays shocks give enough adjustment to compensate for this? So one shock is a little stiffer... and it's one to clicks out on compression clickers to get it back to close to the standard?
I suspect the stock porsche shocks would not have these type of adjustments though.
Powerband
There was a great podcast from a few years ago with Rich Taylor and he was explaining how in pre production testing they would fine tune a suspension setting and then the manufacturer would take it back and match the dyno curve with cheaper internals. They would always be really disappointed when they would ride the production bike because it would be way off.
Noleen revalve kits back in the day we’re sweet. 😎
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