2023 KTM 300sx potential issue (pics and video)

JK714
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7/2/2023 11:56am
JK714 wrote:
Just measured it.  Wossner intake skirt is almost exactly 2mm thick from the bottom of the skirt to the top of the intake port, all along...

Just measured it.  Wossner intake skirt is almost exactly 2mm thick from the bottom of the skirt to the top of the intake port, all along the intake side of the piston.

PatH wrote:

Did you ever install the Wossner?

No, I actually bought it for the 300 kit I  plan to install soon on my TC250. The Vertex in the pic is from the kit.

 

I'm short shifting my 300SX which works fine,  and will get another Wossner when it's time for a top end.

PatH
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7/11/2023 7:38am

I’ll have some updated info on this shortly, I have mine apart as I wanted to get to the bottom of this.  So numerous hours and measurements and some modeling clay later I have some answers.  And they are not what most suspect.  
 

For starters, of course the piston hits the crank when the cylinder is not installed and at BDC.  I don’t even know why someone found that alarming, the piston will never have that much lateral movement at the skirt with the cyl on so that’s a mute point.  
 

The area I suspected of being the closest to hitting the crank does appear to be the case, but so far there is still plenty of clearance.  I am gonna check a few more things and get a few more measurements and will share once I am finished.  

7/11/2023 8:24am
PatH wrote:
I’ll have some updated info on this shortly, I have mine apart as I wanted to get to the bottom of this.  So numerous hours and...

I’ll have some updated info on this shortly, I have mine apart as I wanted to get to the bottom of this.  So numerous hours and measurements and some modeling clay later I have some answers.  And they are not what most suspect.  
 

For starters, of course the piston hits the crank when the cylinder is not installed and at BDC.  I don’t even know why someone found that alarming, the piston will never have that much lateral movement at the skirt with the cyl on so that’s a mute point.  
 

The area I suspected of being the closest to hitting the crank does appear to be the case, but so far there is still plenty of clearance.  I am gonna check a few more things and get a few more measurements and will share once I am finished.  

Thanks for sharing your findings.

If yours hasn’t happened yet, you may be one of the lucky ones.

There are many people who suffered major engine failures due to it hitting with the engine assembled.

Not shown in this video but in pics was the underside of the piston after it was started and run for start up with the piston hitting and the marks to prove it.

There is a reason why Wossner and other piston mfgs made production changes to make the skirt shorter.

 

PatH
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7/11/2023 8:37am
PatH wrote:
I’ll have some updated info on this shortly, I have mine apart as I wanted to get to the bottom of this.  So numerous hours and...

I’ll have some updated info on this shortly, I have mine apart as I wanted to get to the bottom of this.  So numerous hours and measurements and some modeling clay later I have some answers.  And they are not what most suspect.  
 

For starters, of course the piston hits the crank when the cylinder is not installed and at BDC.  I don’t even know why someone found that alarming, the piston will never have that much lateral movement at the skirt with the cyl on so that’s a mute point.  
 

The area I suspected of being the closest to hitting the crank does appear to be the case, but so far there is still plenty of clearance.  I am gonna check a few more things and get a few more measurements and will share once I am finished.  

Thanks for sharing your findings. If yours hasn’t happened yet, you may be one of the lucky ones. There are many people who suffered major engine...

Thanks for sharing your findings.

If yours hasn’t happened yet, you may be one of the lucky ones.

There are many people who suffered major engine failures due to it hitting with the engine assembled.

Not shown in this video but in pics was the underside of the piston after it was started and run for start up with the piston hitting and the marks to prove it.

There is a reason why Wossner and other piston mfgs made production changes to make the skirt shorter.

 

Wossners skirt isn’t shorter, I have one on my bench.  

The Shop

7/11/2023 11:38am
PatH wrote:
I’ll have some updated info on this shortly, I have mine apart as I wanted to get to the bottom of this.  So numerous hours and...

I’ll have some updated info on this shortly, I have mine apart as I wanted to get to the bottom of this.  So numerous hours and measurements and some modeling clay later I have some answers.  And they are not what most suspect.  
 

For starters, of course the piston hits the crank when the cylinder is not installed and at BDC.  I don’t even know why someone found that alarming, the piston will never have that much lateral movement at the skirt with the cyl on so that’s a mute point.  
 

The area I suspected of being the closest to hitting the crank does appear to be the case, but so far there is still plenty of clearance.  I am gonna check a few more things and get a few more measurements and will share once I am finished.  

Thanks for sharing your findings. If yours hasn’t happened yet, you may be one of the lucky ones. There are many people who suffered major engine...

Thanks for sharing your findings.

If yours hasn’t happened yet, you may be one of the lucky ones.

There are many people who suffered major engine failures due to it hitting with the engine assembled.

Not shown in this video but in pics was the underside of the piston after it was started and run for start up with the piston hitting and the marks to prove it.

There is a reason why Wossner and other piston mfgs made production changes to make the skirt shorter.

 

PatH wrote:

Wossners skirt isn’t shorter, I have one on my bench.  

This would mean that the stocker piston you have is good and made right, as with the Wossner, it is made right...many KTM spec Vertex pistons that were made wrong, made it into the production line.  So if you ordered one direct from Vertex it would be correct.

KTM had hundreds if not more, old stock 300 KTM spec pistons that were made wrong, boxed, and shipped to the assembly warehouse where they were stocked with other ones that were made correctly.

This has been well documented already.

 

PatH
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7/11/2023 2:43pm

Here are some pictures of both the stock piston with clay to demonstrate what the closest area is for interference. The wossner had the same clearance in the same area.  .032-.040 depending 

 

the clay was rounded and you can see where the crank flat spotted it   IMG 6493

 IMG 6494

 

2
Deetsmx
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8/21/2023 3:10pm

Where are you guys getting gaskets?  I'm trying to rebuild my 23 250SX and can't find any microfiches on any websites.  I've found a pro X piston kit on Rocky Mountain, but can't find base gaskets or vertex pistons anywhere.

FGR01
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8/21/2023 3:31pm
Deetsmx wrote:
Where are you guys getting gaskets?  I'm trying to rebuild my 23 250SX and can't find any microfiches on any websites.  I've found a pro X...

Where are you guys getting gaskets?  I'm trying to rebuild my 23 250SX and can't find any microfiches on any websites.  I've found a pro X piston kit on Rocky Mountain, but can't find base gaskets or vertex pistons anywhere.

Both Vertex A and B pistons are in stock with PU.  Any PU dealer can order them.
 

Top line is the PU part number. Bottom is Vertex number.

image-20230821153050-1

8/21/2023 4:26pm
Deetsmx wrote:
Where are you guys getting gaskets?  I'm trying to rebuild my 23 250SX and can't find any microfiches on any websites.  I've found a pro X...

Where are you guys getting gaskets?  I'm trying to rebuild my 23 250SX and can't find any microfiches on any websites.  I've found a pro X piston kit on Rocky Mountain, but can't find base gaskets or vertex pistons anywhere.

I have (9) complete top end gasket sets left, just got them in today from the UK..$59 shipped.

Are you on FB?

Join my page!!

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/709915283880183

rjg
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8/22/2023 6:49am

Ktm is going down hill in ever since Covid response measures. They still havent come back from that.

Deetsmx
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8/22/2023 9:08am
FGR01 wrote:
Both Vertex A and B pistons are in stock with PU.  Any PU dealer can order them.   Top line is the PU part number. Bottom...

Both Vertex A and B pistons are in stock with PU.  Any PU dealer can order them.
 

Top line is the PU part number. Bottom is Vertex number.

image-20230821153050-1

Are you sure that these pistons are for the 23?  When looking up those numbers it's for the older 250's, just wanted to confirm that the same piston is used in the new model.  Thanks for your help so far.

FGR01
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8/22/2023 2:18pm
FGR01 wrote:
Both Vertex A and B pistons are in stock with PU.  Any PU dealer can order them.   Top line is the PU part number. Bottom...

Both Vertex A and B pistons are in stock with PU.  Any PU dealer can order them.
 

Top line is the PU part number. Bottom is Vertex number.

image-20230821153050-1

Deetsmx wrote:
Are you sure that these pistons are for the 23?  When looking up those numbers it's for the older 250's, just wanted to confirm that the...

Are you sure that these pistons are for the 23?  When looking up those numbers it's for the older 250's, just wanted to confirm that the same piston is used in the new model.  Thanks for your help so far.

23 uses the same pistons as the old-gen bikes for the 250 (and the 300's).  I double checked on both the Vertex website and the OEM part numbers.  You can double check the Vertex numbers here.  They have the 2023 listed.  https://www.allballsracinggroup.com/vertex

 

Deetsmx
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8/24/2023 10:06am
FGR01 wrote:
23 uses the same pistons as the old-gen bikes for the 250 (and the 300's).  I double checked on both the Vertex website and the OEM...

23 uses the same pistons as the old-gen bikes for the 250 (and the 300's).  I double checked on both the Vertex website and the OEM part numbers.  You can double check the Vertex numbers here.  They have the 2023 listed.  https://www.allballsracinggroup.com/vertex

 

Thanks for the help.  Got the piston on order and got the gaskets from Jbone.  Will probably map the bike soon, hopefully get a little more hit so it pulls second better and doesn't bog out shifting to third on tilled starts.  It pulls smooth and long in second, but in tight corners I feel it needs a bit more punch.

1
FGR01
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11/26/2023 8:20am Edited Date/Time 11/26/2023 8:25am

Some more info to add to this 300 piston discussion.

OEM 300 piston size is A-71.925mm and B-71.935

Both aftermarket Vertex and Wossner are

A  71.94

B  71.95

C  71.96

So, all aftermarket pistons are bigger than both OEM sizes with less clearance.  Anyone think the extra clearance on the stock pistons might contribute to potential to contact the crank?  Likewise, when putting in an aftermarket piston to correct the issue, perhaps it's as much about reducing clearance and piston rock as it is about the skirt length or thickness.

11/26/2023 2:51pm
FGR01 wrote:
Some more info to add to this 300 piston discussion. OEM 300 piston size is A-71.925mm and B-71.935 Both aftermarket Vertex and Wossner are A  71.94...

Some more info to add to this 300 piston discussion.

OEM 300 piston size is A-71.925mm and B-71.935

Both aftermarket Vertex and Wossner are

A  71.94

B  71.95

C  71.96

So, all aftermarket pistons are bigger than both OEM sizes with less clearance.  Anyone think the extra clearance on the stock pistons might contribute to potential to contact the crank?  Likewise, when putting in an aftermarket piston to correct the issue, perhaps it's as much about reducing clearance and piston rock as it is about the skirt length or thickness.

Good point, from what I have seen, it is the skirt issues more than the larger bore size.

If my math is correct, the .005mm diff between the 71.935 and 71.94mm is just under .002” which is measured at the outside of the skirt diameter and such a small number and it seems to be hitting on the bottom of the skirt from what I have seen.

FGR01
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11/26/2023 4:29pm
FGR01 wrote:
Some more info to add to this 300 piston discussion. OEM 300 piston size is A-71.925mm and B-71.935 Both aftermarket Vertex and Wossner are A  71.94...

Some more info to add to this 300 piston discussion.

OEM 300 piston size is A-71.925mm and B-71.935

Both aftermarket Vertex and Wossner are

A  71.94

B  71.95

C  71.96

So, all aftermarket pistons are bigger than both OEM sizes with less clearance.  Anyone think the extra clearance on the stock pistons might contribute to potential to contact the crank?  Likewise, when putting in an aftermarket piston to correct the issue, perhaps it's as much about reducing clearance and piston rock as it is about the skirt length or thickness.

Good point, from what I have seen, it is the skirt issues more than the larger bore size. If my math is correct, the .005mm diff...

Good point, from what I have seen, it is the skirt issues more than the larger bore size.

If my math is correct, the .005mm diff between the 71.935 and 71.94mm is just under .002” which is measured at the outside of the skirt diameter and such a small number and it seems to be hitting on the bottom of the skirt from what I have seen.

Yes, the belief is the skirt is contacting the crank on the intake side.   The point I am making is that the larger the piston to bore clearance is, the more piston "tilt" you get which will dynamically decrease whatever static clearance you have between the skirt and crank, which is very tight to begin with.   The difference between the OEM and aftermarket pistons may seem insignificant, but when you have extremely tight skirt to crank clearance, that extra little bit of piston tilt may suddenly matter.

To add to this, I've been wondering if the rev limiter on the TBI bikes may play into this.  Carb bikes don't have a rev limiter.  What happens on a TBI bike when the bike is at max rpm and suddenly the ignition or fuel cuts and introduces new harmonics in the rotating assembly?

1
11/27/2023 12:59am
FGR01 wrote:
Some more info to add to this 300 piston discussion. OEM 300 piston size is A-71.925mm and B-71.935 Both aftermarket Vertex and Wossner are A  71.94...

Some more info to add to this 300 piston discussion.

OEM 300 piston size is A-71.925mm and B-71.935

Both aftermarket Vertex and Wossner are

A  71.94

B  71.95

C  71.96

So, all aftermarket pistons are bigger than both OEM sizes with less clearance.  Anyone think the extra clearance on the stock pistons might contribute to potential to contact the crank?  Likewise, when putting in an aftermarket piston to correct the issue, perhaps it's as much about reducing clearance and piston rock as it is about the skirt length or thickness.

Good point, from what I have seen, it is the skirt issues more than the larger bore size. If my math is correct, the .005mm diff...

Good point, from what I have seen, it is the skirt issues more than the larger bore size.

If my math is correct, the .005mm diff between the 71.935 and 71.94mm is just under .002” which is measured at the outside of the skirt diameter and such a small number and it seems to be hitting on the bottom of the skirt from what I have seen.

FGR01 wrote:
Yes, the belief is the skirt is contacting the crank on the intake side.   The point I am making is that the larger the piston to...

Yes, the belief is the skirt is contacting the crank on the intake side.   The point I am making is that the larger the piston to bore clearance is, the more piston "tilt" you get which will dynamically decrease whatever static clearance you have between the skirt and crank, which is very tight to begin with.   The difference between the OEM and aftermarket pistons may seem insignificant, but when you have extremely tight skirt to crank clearance, that extra little bit of piston tilt may suddenly matter.

To add to this, I've been wondering if the rev limiter on the TBI bikes may play into this.  Carb bikes don't have a rev limiter.  What happens on a TBI bike when the bike is at max rpm and suddenly the ignition or fuel cuts and introduces new harmonics in the rotating assembly?

I see what your saying but I thought it was the oem pistons that were hitting?

FGR01
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11/27/2023 4:57am
Good point, from what I have seen, it is the skirt issues more than the larger bore size. If my math is correct, the .005mm diff...

Good point, from what I have seen, it is the skirt issues more than the larger bore size.

If my math is correct, the .005mm diff between the 71.935 and 71.94mm is just under .002” which is measured at the outside of the skirt diameter and such a small number and it seems to be hitting on the bottom of the skirt from what I have seen.

FGR01 wrote:
Yes, the belief is the skirt is contacting the crank on the intake side.   The point I am making is that the larger the piston to...

Yes, the belief is the skirt is contacting the crank on the intake side.   The point I am making is that the larger the piston to bore clearance is, the more piston "tilt" you get which will dynamically decrease whatever static clearance you have between the skirt and crank, which is very tight to begin with.   The difference between the OEM and aftermarket pistons may seem insignificant, but when you have extremely tight skirt to crank clearance, that extra little bit of piston tilt may suddenly matter.

To add to this, I've been wondering if the rev limiter on the TBI bikes may play into this.  Carb bikes don't have a rev limiter.  What happens on a TBI bike when the bike is at max rpm and suddenly the ignition or fuel cuts and introduces new harmonics in the rotating assembly?

I see what your saying but I thought it was the oem pistons that were hitting?

Yes, exactly.  OEM pistons have a smaller diameter, therefore more cylinder clearance, therefore can "tilt" more, therefore decrease the already minimal skirt to crank clearance.

1
wrc777
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11/27/2023 6:07am

I am surprised a bike can go to the rev limiter for a fraction of a second if the piston can hit the crank let alone a few hours.

F7C
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2/13/2024 5:52pm

Hey guys!

I have a 2024 TX300 and I came across this discussion. Any more info? Should I be ordering a top end kit to protect my bike?

Thanks

2/14/2024 4:25am

If you get a piston, (Wossner), I would still trim the skirt a little bit.  I have heard but not seen, that there still may be contact with the crank regardless of the piston.  If it does happen with the Wossner, it is a forged piston so it can withstand some kisses off the crank and not explode.

Just an FYI.

boolzi
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Tollesboro, KY US
2/15/2024 3:52pm

I’m very curious about this too. I put many hours on my 2020 300xc, now have about 15 on my 2023 300. Love the bike and i pin it on my straight aways. Man, i would hate a grenaded engine and I’m lazy to pull piston for a maybe possible issue.

boolzi
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3/2/2024 4:09pm

Not sure how slavens goes over here but i commented to Jeff about this issue and he is going to be doing a vid on it. He did say there were some bad pistons but the affected engines had obvious ticking. 

FGR01
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3/4/2024 5:48am
boolzi wrote:
Not sure how slavens goes over here but i commented to Jeff about this issue and he is going to be doing a vid on it...

Not sure how slavens goes over here but i commented to Jeff about this issue and he is going to be doing a vid on it. He did say there were some bad pistons but the affected engines had obvious ticking. 

I don't agree with that take and the idea that if the piston is going to hit, it's going to hit immediately, not after 40 hrs or whatever.  I believe there's a difference between "static clearance" and "dynamic clearance".  In other words, if you could get in a brand new engine, all cold, and measure the skirt to crank clearance, there might be some clearance there, so no ticking.  But when the parts get older, worn, looser, warmed up and expanded, and you rev it to the limiter and the piston is tilting to it's max in the cylinder, and maybe there's even a hint of deformation... then you might get contact.  Kind of like how you can set up an engine with a very tight squish, so clearance when measured cold, but then get piston to head contact on down the road.  There are plenty of posts from guys on the TBI forums with grenaded engines who never mention hearing a ticking before the explosion.

1
soggy
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3/4/2024 7:46am

Off topic but just watched a video on the sr-71 blackbird engine. It expands 6” in overall length at full cruising altitude and speed, that’s insane. 
 

if the pistons on these bikes are expanding just enough and the clearance is already so little it’s possible the piston wouldn’t hit when cold but under extreme heat it could. 

JWACK
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3/4/2024 3:04pm

Does this affect the 250 as well? 

3/6/2024 4:00am
JWACK wrote:

Does this affect the 250 as well? 

I have seen a few 250’s but not as much as the 300.

 

crmx105
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3/8/2024 7:18pm
soggy wrote:
Off topic but just watched a video on the sr-71 blackbird engine. It expands 6” in overall length at full cruising altitude and speed, that’s insane. ...

Off topic but just watched a video on the sr-71 blackbird engine. It expands 6” in overall length at full cruising altitude and speed, that’s insane. 
 

if the pistons on these bikes are expanding just enough and the clearance is already so little it’s possible the piston wouldn’t hit when cold but under extreme heat it could. 

Saw one of those when I was in the Air Force in the 70s. It would have multiple hydraulic leaks when not in flight because of that!

sandman768
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7/17/2024 9:59am

Anymore updates on piston issues? 

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