2023 KX450 suspension setup

HarrowDrag 5/29/2023 10:20pm
5/29/2023 10:20pm
hititpind wrote:
Where did Keefer say the bars are rigid? I’ve listened to everything Keefer has out on Kawi’s (that I know of), and I’ve never heard that...

Where did Keefer say the bars are rigid? I’ve listened to everything Keefer has out on Kawi’s (that I know of), and I’ve never heard that. The Renthal Fat Bars feel the opposite to me. 

My 19 and 21 needed revalved. My 22 SR was on point right I’d the box. I weigh 160 with gear. 

Red7 wrote:
He said the same thing in multiple videos and his hour long pod casts.  I've listened to probably 30+ hours of videos and podcasts on the...

He said the same thing in multiple videos and his hour long pod casts.  I've listened to probably 30+ hours of videos and podcasts on the new gen KX over the past couple weeks so I don't recall exactly where but it was pretty much any time he was discussing the rider triangle and controls.  I wonder if Renthal makes a cheaper spec to save money on the stock bar because Keefer said something along the lines of, the cheap stock bars have a nice bend but are rigid as hell so chuck the stock bars and grips.  He's a fan of the Pro Taper Evos for the fat bars though so he's not anti 1-1/8".

Highly recommend trying the 827

I am a bar nazi...997 with cross bar was super rigid...839 (stock) is awesome but the 827 is a liiiittle wider.

Just spent the day with them and super happy.

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hititpind
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hititpind 5/30/2023 9:50am
5/30/2023 9:50am
Red7 wrote:
He said the same thing in multiple videos and his hour long pod casts.  I've listened to probably 30+ hours of videos and podcasts on the...

He said the same thing in multiple videos and his hour long pod casts.  I've listened to probably 30+ hours of videos and podcasts on the new gen KX over the past couple weeks so I don't recall exactly where but it was pretty much any time he was discussing the rider triangle and controls.  I wonder if Renthal makes a cheaper spec to save money on the stock bar because Keefer said something along the lines of, the cheap stock bars have a nice bend but are rigid as hell so chuck the stock bars and grips.  He's a fan of the Pro Taper Evos for the fat bars though so he's not anti 1-1/8".

Interesting. Thanks. Hopefully you can figure it out. 

Red7
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Red7 10/22/2023 7:45pm
10/22/2023 7:45pm Edited Date/Time 10/22/2023 8:05pm

I'm struggling with the forks on this bike and am trying to figure out if I'm being unrealistic in my expectations.  I believe I mentioned in my original post that I'm coming off of my 2013 KX450F which has the kyb PSF1 air forks.  That was my reference to compare my 2023 to initially, and the past few months since getting my suspension worked on twice.  What I've always loved about the air forks is how progressive the bottoming resistance is and Racetech must have really nailed it because I had great bottoming resistance in that ramped up smoothly in the bottom 1/3rd of the stroke, but the top half was soft enough to stay plush in the chop and braking bumps, while still having good holdup.  

When I first got my 2023 Showas back from enzo, it was good in the smaller chop and the shock was pretty good but with the 5.2N springs, the forks did not have good bottoming resistance for my 200 lb size and it would blow right through the stroke and bottom 5-6 times per lap, even on small jumps. I experimented with more oil and got it to where it didn't bottom so easily but it seemed like it would still blow through the stroke on small (50'ish) jumps like if a guy in front of me didn't fully jump something and I had to check up last second and land short on a table.  It wasn't real confidence inspiring when jumping 80-100' jumps because if I didn't downside perfectly, my fused and ankle and 50 year old joints took a beating.

I sent it back to enzo, hoping to get a little more valving for more hold up and stiffness in the bottom 1/3 of the stroke but they said any changes to the valving would make it harsh.  They recommended I go up another spring rate, which they did.  I've gotten 2 days on it riding it back to back with my 2013 and the bottoming resistance is very similar between the two, but the top half of the stroke is SO much stiffer that it does not absorb braking bumps or smaller chop nearly as well as my air forks.  I knew it as soon as I bolted them on as I tried to push down on the forks and the barely moved.  Now I'm not saying they are terrible as I really like the bottom half of the stroke of these (more progressive ramp up very similar to my air forks) but I liked the top half of the stroke of what I originally got from enzo (again, very similar to the top half of my air forks) so I feel like with these spring forks, I have to choose one of the other, where as my air forks give me the best of both worlds.

So my questions are:

1.  Is this a normal thing for all spring forks where you can't have a nice progressive bottoming resistance without having it really stiff up top (because enzo said there really wasn't much more they could do valving wise so it came down to which spring rate I prefered).  In my mind, I always assumed that you could make valving adjustments throughout the stroke to where you could make the bottom 1/3 stiff for bottoming resistance, middle 1/3 medium for hold up, and top 1/3 for plushness.  Does it not work that way?

2.  Are all spring forks this way or is this more of a Showa thing?  I've read a lot of comments about how good the kyb spring forks are on the YZ450f and I'm wondering if I wouldn't have been a lot more happy going that route.  Before buying this 2023, I was leaning towards the YZ450 but it was a couple grand more but now that I've spent almost that ($1200 the first try and another $500 the 2nd) trying to get these Showas to work, I'm wondering if I didn't make a bad call.  I like this chassis better than my 2013 but I like the forks and engine more on the old bike to where I'm considering selling the 2023, except for the fact that I've spent so much on the suspension that I kind of feel stuck.

3.  Are there other 200lb guys here and are you having similar issues with bottoming on 80'+ jumps?  I realize the heavier we are, we generate a lot of energy when going big so I get that there is a compromise we have to make.  I definitely feel safer with my current setup as it's much stiffer so I think that's the right choice between the 2.

4.  Do you know of anyone who has put the PSF1 airforks on the newer generation KX450s?  I guess I'd have to change the triple clamps down but not sure if that would change the geometry.  I know the air forks got a lot of hate from people not wanting to check pressures but I know Canard and Shorty loved the PSF1 and Roczen is running them on his current Suzuki so I think when dialed in, they are one of the better air forks.

Anyway, I appreciate your guy's help!  The 2023 is a good bike but every time I switched back to the 2013 yesterday, it had me 2nd guessing buying a new bike.

Riesenberg448 10/23/2023 11:07pm
10/23/2023 11:07pm Edited Date/Time 10/24/2023 12:55pm

So you're saying Race Tech nailed your setting last time, but you went elsewhere on your new bike and haven't found the same feeling? Ever thought of calling Race Tech again?

 

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inthebadboycorner 10/23/2023 11:43pm
10/23/2023 11:43pm
Red7 wrote:
So while driving back from picking it up, I made several calls to suspension companies. Feel free to give your input. First off, everyone was cool...

So while driving back from picking it up, I made several calls to suspension companies. Feel free to give your input. First off, everyone was cool on the phone and these comments were as I remember it while driving so I may be off on pricing or details. If any techs are on here I apologize if I misrepresent anything you said.

Graeme Brough- such a nice dude and would have spent hours on the phone educating me. Cheapest at $800 for new springs and revalve. He said KX's internals are really good and didn't recommend changing much as they were very close to A kit once finessed. I inquired about national spring tubes or volume spacers and he recommended I try it without, and said he could add the spring tubes or he'd coach me how to add them later if I wanted more plushness/hold up so I can tell he'd provide tons of support as I dial it in and that's worth a lot!

Ride JBI- JB was also super cool and I can tell he'd provide all the support I'd need as he also answered every question I had. Unlike GB, he does recommend changing out some internals in his Pro kit and would be about $1050 for springs, revalve and his pro kit.

Enzo- Craig was nice but I could tell he was at dinner so I felt a little awkward even though he was in no way short with me. Cool of him to answer.  He recommends springs, revalve and spring tubes for about $1100.

I think it's between the top 3 and just wish I could hear from people who have used more than one of these.

PC- price wasn't bad for $900ish for just springs and revalve but had zero connection with the guy on the phone and I felt like an employee in a large company where you are just a number on the hamster wheel. Felt like there wouldn't be much support after it left PC.

Art of War- nice guy and answered all my questions, plus I could drive 2.5 hrs to them. He agreed with GB that the KX internals were the best stock Showas of the 450s and therefore didn't recommend changing anything and just do a revalve and springs for $1070. The others in that price range fabbed their own parts so it seemed a little pricey for just shim stacks. I do think I'd get good support but I'd rather pay to ship stuff than drive 5 hrs round trip each time.

Factory Connection- cool guy and I feel like I'd get plenty of support. They change out tons of stuff so theirs may be a decent value but at $1600, I'm not sure I have the ability to appreciate theirs, but it's probably good stuff.

I guess my question is, why do some guys like Graeme Brough think everything inside is engineered well vs others who feel the need to change some, or most out? It would be nice to know how many setups each has done on these Showas to know how dialed their setups are for me. Sorry for thr long post but thought this info may help others. 

Why, would you like fries with that? That's why, upselling.

My experience as a slow rider that can't decipher what a bike is doing, or needs,

Is you can't go past getting the suspension done at a shop where they can watch you ride your bike afterwards, and adjust if necessary.

28hall
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28hall 10/24/2023 2:21am
10/24/2023 2:21am

I loved my 13 Kawi 450 and have often toyed with the idea of trying to find a low hour one to see if it still matches up to my fond memories! Up until my Yamaha this year I have been on Honda’s since 2017 with that showa fork and I found the best part to get that plush initial yet strong bottoming control is the JBI Pro Perch 2.0. KYB forks don’t seem to need it but on the showa 49s it’s a night and day improvement once you find the sweet spot with oil levels

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dancolvin633 10/24/2023 6:25pm
10/24/2023 6:25pm
Riesenberg448 wrote:
So you're saying Race Tech nailed your setting last time, but you went elsewhere on your new bike and haven't found the same feeling? Ever thought of...

So you're saying Race Tech nailed your setting last time, but you went elsewhere on your new bike and haven't found the same feeling? Ever thought of calling Race Tech again?

 

Stop making so much sense would ya! Geez 🤪

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Red7 10/24/2023 6:38pm
10/24/2023 6:38pm
Riesenberg448 wrote:
So you're saying Race Tech nailed your setting last time, but you went elsewhere on your new bike and haven't found the same feeling? Ever thought of...

So you're saying Race Tech nailed your setting last time, but you went elsewhere on your new bike and haven't found the same feeling? Ever thought of calling Race Tech again?

 

Umm yeah Chris, like 100 times but unfortunately it was after the fact.  Honestly, I didn't realize just how good my Racetech setup of my 2013 air forks were until I've been comparing them to these Showas.  I figured they were good for 10 year old forks but given how much Keefer and others shit on the airforks, I figured I was going to be blown away by how good the newer stuff (kyb or Showa) was and figured any suspension company would give me something a step above what I had.  Now I'm in a conundrum of whether to throw more money at these forks, put my air forks on the 2023, or cut my losses and buy a YZ450f.  I really want to take that Racetech suspension seminar as I guess I made false assumptions that valving could control every aspect of the stroke of almost any fork but there are clearly limitations that I don't understand.

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Riesenberg448 10/24/2023 10:15pm
10/24/2023 10:15pm
Riesenberg448 wrote:
So you're saying Race Tech nailed your setting last time, but you went elsewhere on your new bike and haven't found the same feeling? Ever thought of...

So you're saying Race Tech nailed your setting last time, but you went elsewhere on your new bike and haven't found the same feeling? Ever thought of calling Race Tech again?

 

Red7 wrote:
Umm yeah Chris, like 100 times but unfortunately it was after the fact.  Honestly, I didn't realize just how good my Racetech setup of my 2013...

Umm yeah Chris, like 100 times but unfortunately it was after the fact.  Honestly, I didn't realize just how good my Racetech setup of my 2013 air forks were until I've been comparing them to these Showas.  I figured they were good for 10 year old forks but given how much Keefer and others shit on the airforks, I figured I was going to be blown away by how good the newer stuff (kyb or Showa) was and figured any suspension company would give me something a step above what I had.  Now I'm in a conundrum of whether to throw more money at these forks, put my air forks on the 2023, or cut my losses and buy a YZ450f.  I really want to take that Racetech suspension seminar as I guess I made false assumptions that valving could control every aspect of the stroke of almost any fork but there are clearly limitations that I don't understand.

Feel free to reach out anytime.  The Showa fork is a good component.  You can get similar performance and feel from many different components, but they still do have differences.  You also have to factor in bars, clamps, how much time is on the chassis, tires, tire pressure, etc. as they all affect what you feel.

Even bolting on your old forks to your new bike, you won't get the same exact feel.

The PSF1 technology is what many of the pros are using that are choosing an air fork.  It has some limitations but also some benefits and comes down to rider preference.  

Meister
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Meister 10/25/2023 4:44am
10/25/2023 4:44am
Riesenberg448 wrote:
So you're saying Race Tech nailed your setting last time, but you went elsewhere on your new bike and haven't found the same feeling? Ever thought of...

So you're saying Race Tech nailed your setting last time, but you went elsewhere on your new bike and haven't found the same feeling? Ever thought of calling Race Tech again?

 

Red7 wrote:
Umm yeah Chris, like 100 times but unfortunately it was after the fact.  Honestly, I didn't realize just how good my Racetech setup of my 2013...

Umm yeah Chris, like 100 times but unfortunately it was after the fact.  Honestly, I didn't realize just how good my Racetech setup of my 2013 air forks were until I've been comparing them to these Showas.  I figured they were good for 10 year old forks but given how much Keefer and others shit on the airforks, I figured I was going to be blown away by how good the newer stuff (kyb or Showa) was and figured any suspension company would give me something a step above what I had.  Now I'm in a conundrum of whether to throw more money at these forks, put my air forks on the 2023, or cut my losses and buy a YZ450f.  I really want to take that Racetech suspension seminar as I guess I made false assumptions that valving could control every aspect of the stroke of almost any fork but there are clearly limitations that I don't understand.

Riesenberg448 wrote:
Feel free to reach out anytime.  The Showa fork is a good component.  You can get similar performance and feel from many different components, but they...

Feel free to reach out anytime.  The Showa fork is a good component.  You can get similar performance and feel from many different components, but they still do have differences.  You also have to factor in bars, clamps, how much time is on the chassis, tires, tire pressure, etc. as they all affect what you feel.

Even bolting on your old forks to your new bike, you won't get the same exact feel.

The PSF1 technology is what many of the pros are using that are choosing an air fork.  It has some limitations but also some benefits and comes down to rider preference.  

Good info. What kinda viral deal can we get on a kx set up with springs? Got a freshie sr im trying to figure out what to do with. 

quadzrulebro 10/25/2023 4:57am
10/25/2023 4:57am Edited Date/Time 10/25/2023 4:57am
Riesenberg448 wrote:
So you're saying Race Tech nailed your setting last time, but you went elsewhere on your new bike and haven't found the same feeling? Ever thought of...

So you're saying Race Tech nailed your setting last time, but you went elsewhere on your new bike and haven't found the same feeling? Ever thought of calling Race Tech again?

 

I installed my own Gold Valve kit in my forks (along with the recommended stiffer springs) and I am very happy with the results.

Red7
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Red7 10/25/2023 8:48am
10/25/2023 8:48am

Does anyone know of someone who makes PROGRESSIVE springs for the Showas? That may be my biggest issue as an air spring is generally more progressive while a metal spring is usually more linear (doesn't get stiffer as it compresses).  The first setup I got back after having it revalved felt pretty good in the top 1/3 of the stroke but on any bigger hits, once the fork started collapsing, it just felt like it kept going without feeling progressively stiffer as it got lower in the stroke.  Adding oil got it to where it didn't bottom as easy but it still blew through until the last few inches and then was "saved" by the oil.

The 2nd setup with the stiffer springs feels much better in the bottom 1/3 of the stroke where it now feels more progressive, but at the expensive of smaller bump compliance.  I feel like I could be very happy if someone sold a progressive spring that maybe started at 5.2N in the top half of the stroke and then progressed to a 5.3N in the bottom.

With my fused ankle, I realize I'm a little more of a pain in the ass vs a normal rider but it comes down to me needing really good bottoming resistance on big jumps, but without the whole stroke being excessively stiff.

mx4all 10/25/2023 12:41pm
10/25/2023 12:41pm

20230704 135738I have been running this setup but with 360ml oil in the forks this season and haven't been super happy with it.  It works decent but I think the bike have been a bit unpredictable when the tracks gets gnarly. 

lately I have been riding sand and tried stiffen up the fork and set the sag at 48 wich gave me about 110mm race sag and that woorked much much better in the sand. 

Will put a 57 spring in the rear and try on Saturday. Think the 60 is a bit to stiff. 

weight is 194 lbs former pro but still as fast as ever. 

looking forward for the 24 model to arrive soon.  

spoke to a pro who races the kx450 and he didn't jell with the showa. Tested it a lot and revalved and so on then he bought a kyb a kit and it felt way better to him. 

spoke to keefer also and he recommended the kyb over the showa.

spoke to a honda pro racer and he got the showa a kit and he was really happy with it so I guess you can get comfy on both.

ive been riding ktms a lot with conevalves and I prefer the conevalve air. Lighter feel and progressive smooth dampening feel.. 

Meister
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Meister 10/25/2023 12:47pm
10/25/2023 12:47pm

Can yz forks go on a kx? 

Graybeard 10/25/2023 12:58pm
10/25/2023 12:58pm

My son bought a 2023 KX450 from John Short, it was his suspension test bike. It has Core MX suspension; he absolutely loves it.

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CBE 10/25/2023 5:03pm
10/25/2023 5:03pm
Red7 wrote:
Does anyone know of someone who makes PROGRESSIVE springs for the Showas? That may be my biggest issue as an air spring is generally more progressive...

Does anyone know of someone who makes PROGRESSIVE springs for the Showas? That may be my biggest issue as an air spring is generally more progressive while a metal spring is usually more linear (doesn't get stiffer as it compresses).  The first setup I got back after having it revalved felt pretty good in the top 1/3 of the stroke but on any bigger hits, once the fork started collapsing, it just felt like it kept going without feeling progressively stiffer as it got lower in the stroke.  Adding oil got it to where it didn't bottom as easy but it still blew through until the last few inches and then was "saved" by the oil.

The 2nd setup with the stiffer springs feels much better in the bottom 1/3 of the stroke where it now feels more progressive, but at the expensive of smaller bump compliance.  I feel like I could be very happy if someone sold a progressive spring that maybe started at 5.2N in the top half of the stroke and then progressed to a 5.3N in the bottom.

With my fused ankle, I realize I'm a little more of a pain in the ass vs a normal rider but it comes down to me needing really good bottoming resistance on big jumps, but without the whole stroke being excessively stiff.

If they went up a spring rate and it was too stiff, you can swap one of the softer springs back in. That will give some compromise between the two setups. I have a 19 kx450 and it’s the best suspension I have had in awhile. It took some tuning but nothing major. I tightened the float .1mm and added two face shims on the base valve. LSV I added a shim. Similar valving to the 450SR model. I do run a rate heavier spring on the front than I normally do. I’m 185lbs and run .52 in the forks and 5.7 in the rear.

Riesenberg448 10/25/2023 9:16pm
10/25/2023 9:16pm
Red7 wrote:
Umm yeah Chris, like 100 times but unfortunately it was after the fact.  Honestly, I didn't realize just how good my Racetech setup of my 2013...

Umm yeah Chris, like 100 times but unfortunately it was after the fact.  Honestly, I didn't realize just how good my Racetech setup of my 2013 air forks were until I've been comparing them to these Showas.  I figured they were good for 10 year old forks but given how much Keefer and others shit on the airforks, I figured I was going to be blown away by how good the newer stuff (kyb or Showa) was and figured any suspension company would give me something a step above what I had.  Now I'm in a conundrum of whether to throw more money at these forks, put my air forks on the 2023, or cut my losses and buy a YZ450f.  I really want to take that Racetech suspension seminar as I guess I made false assumptions that valving could control every aspect of the stroke of almost any fork but there are clearly limitations that I don't understand.

Riesenberg448 wrote:
Feel free to reach out anytime.  The Showa fork is a good component.  You can get similar performance and feel from many different components, but they...

Feel free to reach out anytime.  The Showa fork is a good component.  You can get similar performance and feel from many different components, but they still do have differences.  You also have to factor in bars, clamps, how much time is on the chassis, tires, tire pressure, etc. as they all affect what you feel.

Even bolting on your old forks to your new bike, you won't get the same exact feel.

The PSF1 technology is what many of the pros are using that are choosing an air fork.  It has some limitations but also some benefits and comes down to rider preference.  

Meister wrote:
Good info. What kinda viral deal can we get on a kx set up with springs? Got a freshie sr im trying to figure out what...

Good info. What kinda viral deal can we get on a kx set up with springs? Got a freshie sr im trying to figure out what to do with. 

We have both a Vital MX discount and rider support programs if you do any racing.  

Feel free to drop me an email with your info (weight/skill level/type of riding) and I can have Sydney get you a quote.

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Riesenberg448 10/25/2023 9:19pm
10/25/2023 9:19pm
Red7 wrote:
Does anyone know of someone who makes PROGRESSIVE springs for the Showas? That may be my biggest issue as an air spring is generally more progressive...

Does anyone know of someone who makes PROGRESSIVE springs for the Showas? That may be my biggest issue as an air spring is generally more progressive while a metal spring is usually more linear (doesn't get stiffer as it compresses).  The first setup I got back after having it revalved felt pretty good in the top 1/3 of the stroke but on any bigger hits, once the fork started collapsing, it just felt like it kept going without feeling progressively stiffer as it got lower in the stroke.  Adding oil got it to where it didn't bottom as easy but it still blew through until the last few inches and then was "saved" by the oil.

The 2nd setup with the stiffer springs feels much better in the bottom 1/3 of the stroke where it now feels more progressive, but at the expensive of smaller bump compliance.  I feel like I could be very happy if someone sold a progressive spring that maybe started at 5.2N in the top half of the stroke and then progressed to a 5.3N in the bottom.

With my fused ankle, I realize I'm a little more of a pain in the ass vs a normal rider but it comes down to me needing really good bottoming resistance on big jumps, but without the whole stroke being excessively stiff.

You can get a progressive feel through valving.

Part of the reason Race Tech uses the Gold Valve is because it allows you to have a plush initial feel while still increasing bottoming resistance.  

 

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