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This is pretty cool. Like I always say, zero-emission doesn't have to be electric.
https://www.rideapart.com/news/667789/honda-kawasaki-suzuki-yamaha-hydrogen/
On May 17, 2023, Japan’s Big Four motorcycle manufacturers announced a bold new plan to cooperatively develop hydrogen-powered motorcycle engines. Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, and Yamaha executives all gathered at a Tokyo press conference to announce the formation of HySE, which stands for “Hydrogen Small Mobility and Engine Technology.” ...
Awesome! I know Yamaha has been working with Toyota as well and Toyota seems to be pursuing this technology more aggressively than they are electric. Long live combustion!
Diesel Progress had an interesting article last year about Toyotas stance on full electric vehicles and their push towards hydrogen. It was interesting and I’m sure it was published on public sites as well.
How would hydrogen make any sense in a motorcycle?
Problem Nr. 1: To use hydrogen in a vehicle, it needs to be stored as a liquid, which means you need a tank that can keep it at 20K/-420F or at 800bars/11600 psi of pressure (or a combination of both).
Problem Nr. 2: Assuming you have the same engine efficiency as a gasoline engine, you need three times the storage volume to achieve the same output/range.
And I have to stress this: this is not my opinion, this is physics. There’s no way around those things.
You're so insufferable please go back to your ebike containment board.
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I promise you that the alternative fuel industry is not out to get you lol. Take off the tin foil hat.
To quote the stark folks “why are you so against another option for people to purchase?”
I didn't see it specifically mentioned. It say's 'hydrogen fueled engines' but that doesn't specifically rule out fuel cells. Is this in pursuit of hydrogen combustion engines or hydrogen fuel cells?
You sound like you know more than me, but don't hydrogen fuel cells use hydrogen gas, not liquid?
Please reach out to the engineering execs at Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, and Kawasaki. They have obviously overlooked the physics and will thank you for saving them millions in R&D.
It would presumably be stored as a liquid, and become a gas once released from the pressurized storage vessel on it's way to the engine or fuel cell.
Now hydrogen would be something to get excited about instead of all this electric pipe dream bullshit.
I work at Cummins and we have hydrogen powered train in another country. It’s in the works for medium duty and heavy duty applications.
Like I said, it’s physics. Tin foil hat doesn’t help here..
A hydrogen fuel cell has to operate at above the melting point of water otherwise the membrane will be damaged. If the water that is produced by reacting the hydrogen with oxygen freezes, it‘ll ruin the membrane. So, as mentioned, stored as a liquid, heated up and evaporated and then fed into the fuel cell.
edited: typo
I encourage you to look up the numbers. Do you think I make this up?
You are talking about current numbers, current physics, current limitations. Fortunately there are smart people out there that look beyond currently understood limitations of physics to find breakthroughs and advancements that allow cool stuff to happen. Do you think our understanding of the properties and potential of hydrogen are maxed out? If not, what is the problem?
Damn, I sound just like you in a Stark thread.
What do you mean? This has nothing to do with our understanding of the problem. And it’s nothing physics or engineering can change.
These are the material properties of hydrogen. This is literally the most basic and fixed thing there is in the universe, like the speed of light or gravity.
Liquid hydrogen has a density of 71 kg/m^3, which is a tenth of the density of gasoline.
Ever wondered why the orange tank of the space shuttle was so huge? It almost completely filled with liquid hydrogen.
Pit Row
You are using the exact same argument the dude in one of the many Stark threads used to say their range was physically impossible. Maybe a "I'm curious as to how this will work, I guess we'll wait and see" would have sufficed if you're legitimately skeptical, like others were/are about battery tech.
No, that’s not what I said. Read my first post in this thread. I just listed critical material properties of hydrogen and asked how this fuel would make sense in a motorcycle.
Batteries are in use now as opposed to hydrogen which has seen some limited production. 434 is right about the physics of liquid hydrogen storage but there are cars that do get 300+ miles to a tank of hydrogen. The Toyota Mirai is a hydrogen fuel cell car, fuel cells benefit from a higher efficiency than an ICE. Filling a hydrogen tank is not as straight forward as a gasoline tank, nozzles freeze over and pressure needs to be kept constantly high. I would bet that a yearly pressure test on the tank would be required as well to make sure there is no leaks, H2 is the smallest dipole in nature and can leak through seals that N2 and O2 do not, plus the combustability of it.
But most of all, the main draw of an electric bike alternative is that there is much less sound, a hydrogen ICE doesn't give you that benefit. Passing it off as a green option is just dumb for all the rigamarole of it, just use gasoline, the atmosphere will be fine with motorcycles running.
here is the official release (if you can read Japanese that is)
https://www.honda.co.jp/news/2023/c230517.html
as mentioned above Storage and Tank sizes are big limiting factors in the development... hence why it is focused on "small" engines
In terms of bikes... think scooters (50-80cc) for running about town.
That way you could have a big enough tank capacity for city use without making the bikes themselves overly massive.
This is a bike developed in France... different technology but sill cool (anything two wheel related is)
https://www.h2-k.com/
Hydrogen is the future: People always laughed with me when I said the electric cars wouldn't make it because they haven't enough moving parts to wear out and to get replaced. Dealerships need cars that wear out to make money otherwise they need to sell the cars at incredible prices (what is happening now but doesn't work), people need cars that refuel in a 5 to 10 minutes not 6 hours...
This is the one power source I have really been looking forward to. There will be a ton of politics and red tape thrown in front of this. It won't matter how incredible this design / concept is .......if the right people can't line their pockets with money , we won't get it!! If the right people don't get their pockets lined , it will be their mission to destroy this idea , and tell you how awful it is , and then basically ban it to be for sale.
I hope.....this design concept makes it's way forward. Just watch for the red flags , if certain groups don't think they are getting paid enough.
This 1 minute video of a fuel cell Toyota shows the difficulty of storing enough hydrogen. Just as a reminder: this car has a very efficient fuel cell and still doesn’t have more range than a Tesla Model S.
Guys, I’m all for new tech! However I have my biggest doubts with hydrogen. Here in Germany the government goes crazy on hydrogen and I think we‘ll burn a lot of money in R&D that could be spend elsewhere. Hydrogen downsides can’t be overcome by clever engineering. Everybody and especially the politicians should know that.
Much better alternative fuel for things that move are a methanol or ammonia. There the green hydrogen is bound chemically, the density is much higher and they are much much easier to store.
The Japanese are smart and with this hydrogen push what they are really saying is 'we want the combustion engine to continue on' and we are exploring green fuel alternatives despite the huge storage impracticalities of hydrogen.
The subtext to this is of course 'we see no future for battery electric motorcycles' with the present technology's woeful storage capacity and liability from their fire danger. That is of course the same position that KTM has taken.
That’s what is happening with hydrogen in Germany at the moment. Scientists and start up founders promise politicians wonders and get big money in return. In Erlangen, Germany the government spent up 100 million Euros on hydrogen research at the university. I studied and worked at a chair that benefited from that money, but I fear that nothing will come out of it. The money could have went to better alternatives, but hydrogen sounds sexy and that’s what politicians want.
Yeah, you’re right, there’s no doubt a market for green combustion engines. But there are great alternative fuel other than hydrogen.
Think of your normal motorcycle and you‘d switch it to hydrogen. Assuming you can use the engine with minimal changes, your tank would have to have 3 times the volume and would have to withstand more than 10.000 psi. That’s possible for a truck, locomotive or a ship, but for a motorcycle??
Yes, it's not practical for a motorcycle to be carrying an explosive gas compressed to around 800 bar/10,000 psi.
The safety factor required for accident safety would be 3 or 4 probably, and making 40,000 psi rated vessels other than spheres is a non trivial task.
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