SX all time top 10

walleyeguy
Posts
463
Joined
5/9/2011
Location
Centerville, PA, USA
2/23/2023 10:48am
Came here to say this EXACT thing lol.  Insane to have Stanton, Hannah, and Dungey over JS7.  I would also have Tomac higher. You can't just...

Came here to say this EXACT thing lol. 

Insane to have Stanton, Hannah, and Dungey over JS7. 

I would also have Tomac higher. You can't just go off wins/titles. You need to consider strength of competition and their overall impact on the sport IMO. JS7 literally changed the way people ride dirt bikes.

-MAVERICK- wrote:
The record books don't care about the strength of the competitors. The only things that matter are stats. Fact is that RD, RV, Stanton, and Hannah...

The record books don't care about the strength of the competitors.

The only things that matter are stats.

Fact is that RD, RV, Stanton, and Hannah all have more titles than James. Hence the reason why they are listed ahead of him on the list the OP posted. 

Actually Stewart has 3 championships.  He won the World championship while Carmichael took the AMA (in 06 I believe).  Say what you want but the "World" Championship took more "consistency" to win sooooooooooo.......Stewart has 3 "CHAMPIONSHIPS" IN SUPERCROSS.

4
Flatliner
Posts
4301
Joined
11/3/2009
Location
CA
2/23/2023 12:09pm
Came here to say this EXACT thing lol.  Insane to have Stanton, Hannah, and Dungey over JS7.  I would also have Tomac higher. You can't just...

Came here to say this EXACT thing lol. 

Insane to have Stanton, Hannah, and Dungey over JS7. 

I would also have Tomac higher. You can't just go off wins/titles. You need to consider strength of competition and their overall impact on the sport IMO. JS7 literally changed the way people ride dirt bikes.

-MAVERICK- wrote:
The record books don't care about the strength of the competitors. The only things that matter are stats. Fact is that RD, RV, Stanton, and Hannah...

The record books don't care about the strength of the competitors.

The only things that matter are stats.

Fact is that RD, RV, Stanton, and Hannah all have more titles than James. Hence the reason why they are listed ahead of him on the list the OP posted. 

walleyeguy wrote:
Actually Stewart has 3 championships.  He won the World championship while Carmichael took the AMA (in 06 I believe).  Say what you want but the "World"...

Actually Stewart has 3 championships.  He won the World championship while Carmichael took the AMA (in 06 I believe).  Say what you want but the "World" Championship took more "consistency" to win sooooooooooo.......Stewart has 3 "CHAMPIONSHIPS" IN SUPERCROSS.

wanna bet her didn't get that million dollar bonus for the "world" championship?

 

RC said openly his season started in January.

1
bv164
Posts
5
Joined
8/23/2015
Location
San Antonio, TX, USA
Fantasy
2/23/2023 12:18pm
Mit12 wrote:
My list and how I came up with the placement. I am using AMA and FIM championship rules to make this list. Therefore titles won places...

My list and how I came up with the placement. I am using AMA and FIM championship rules to make this list. Therefore titles won places the riders on the list, wins only count toward tie a tie beaker in the case of riders tied in championships. I am sure that there will be fans of certain riders that won’t like the list.

1. McGrath 7 titles 72 wins.

2. Carmichael 5 titles 48 wins.

3. Villopoto 4 titles 41 wins

4. Dungey 4 titles 34 wins.

5. Hannah 3 titles 27 wins.

6. Stanton 3 titles 17 wins.

7. Stewart 2 titles 50 wins.

8. Tomac 2 titles 47 wins.

9. Reed 2 titles 44 wins.

10. Johnson 2 titles 28 wins

Webb 2 titles 20 wins. I placed him here because he is the only active rider with a chance to move into the top 10 this year. If he wins the championship this year he will jump up to 6th all time.

 

I think re-sorting your list with “wins” taking priority over “titles” makes more sense.  Just my opinion.

1
-MAVERICK-
Posts
67355
Joined
3/26/2015
Location
Ontario, CA
2/23/2023 12:35pm
Mit12 wrote:
My list and how I came up with the placement. I am using AMA and FIM championship rules to make this list. Therefore titles won places...

My list and how I came up with the placement. I am using AMA and FIM championship rules to make this list. Therefore titles won places the riders on the list, wins only count toward tie a tie beaker in the case of riders tied in championships. I am sure that there will be fans of certain riders that won’t like the list.

1. McGrath 7 titles 72 wins.

2. Carmichael 5 titles 48 wins.

3. Villopoto 4 titles 41 wins

4. Dungey 4 titles 34 wins.

5. Hannah 3 titles 27 wins.

6. Stanton 3 titles 17 wins.

7. Stewart 2 titles 50 wins.

8. Tomac 2 titles 47 wins.

9. Reed 2 titles 44 wins.

10. Johnson 2 titles 28 wins

Webb 2 titles 20 wins. I placed him here because he is the only active rider with a chance to move into the top 10 this year. If he wins the championship this year he will jump up to 6th all time.

 

bv164 wrote:

I think re-sorting your list with “wins” taking priority over “titles” makes more sense.  Just my opinion.

What's the end goal of competing in a championship series?

Gathering the most wins or winning the championship? 

The manufacturers spend millions to go racing for titles. What's displayed on the semi trailer doors? 

Wins are nice, but championships are what matter the most in all sports.

McGrath doesn't get introduced as the 72 time supercross winner. He gets introduced as the 7 time champ having won 72 main events. 

6
1

The Shop

mxb2
Posts
22437
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
Bowie, MD, USA
2/23/2023 12:39pm
Mit12 wrote:
My list and how I came up with the placement. I am using AMA and FIM championship rules to make this list. Therefore titles won places...

My list and how I came up with the placement. I am using AMA and FIM championship rules to make this list. Therefore titles won places the riders on the list, wins only count toward tie a tie beaker in the case of riders tied in championships. I am sure that there will be fans of certain riders that won’t like the list.

1. McGrath 7 titles 72 wins.

2. Carmichael 5 titles 48 wins.

3. Villopoto 4 titles 41 wins

4. Dungey 4 titles 34 wins.

5. Hannah 3 titles 27 wins.

6. Stanton 3 titles 17 wins.

7. Stewart 2 titles 50 wins.

8. Tomac 2 titles 47 wins.

9. Reed 2 titles 44 wins.

10. Johnson 2 titles 28 wins

Webb 2 titles 20 wins. I placed him here because he is the only active rider with a chance to move into the top 10 this year. If he wins the championship this year he will jump up to 6th all time.

 

bv164 wrote:

I think re-sorting your list with “wins” taking priority over “titles” makes more sense.  Just my opinion.

-MAVERICK- wrote:
What's the end goal of competing in a championship series? Gathering the most wins or winning the championship?  The manufacturers spend millions to go racing for...

What's the end goal of competing in a championship series?

Gathering the most wins or winning the championship? 

The manufacturers spend millions to go racing for titles. What's displayed on the semi trailer doors? 

Wins are nice, but championships are what matter the most in all sports.

McGrath doesn't get introduced as the 72 time supercross winner. He gets introduced as the 7 time champ having won 72 main events. 

Ask the nba warriors what means more , best regular season record or nba title. End of debate. Titles mean more than wins. Josh grant won a. Sx race, how was he announced? Lol Guaranteed it wasnt one time sx winner.
1
BigRedMachine
Posts
692
Joined
1/29/2023
Location
Grants Pass, OR, USA
2/23/2023 1:29pm
I look at James Bubba Stewart the same way I look at Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa,  Mark McGuire or Lance Armstrong, they all used illegal performance...

I look at James Bubba Stewart the same way I look at Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa,  Mark McGuire or Lance Armstrong, they all used illegal performance enhancing drugs to increase their ability to succeed in their sports.  Once James Stewart was caught and then not allowed to use Adderall anymore, he was never the same rider and couldn't win anymore.  Thats a big problem when athletes cheat, because it makes you wonder if their competition that was racing on natural ability had used the same performance enhancing drugs cheater did, would they have actually been faster themselves and won more races.  I'll admit James Stewart was fun to watch, but his records will be forever tainted by his banned drug use, so I don't think he even deserves to be on the same list as those racers that did it the natural way. 

FARANG wrote:
It's a very good point, but not too popular on here. It seems fairly obvious that he was using unlimited amounts of Adderall (Amphetamine) to help...

It's a very good point, but not too popular on here.

It seems fairly obvious that he was using unlimited amounts of Adderall (Amphetamine) to help his mental game, to help him concentrate for a full race. He still had the odd brain fart but generally he could hold it together. Given that Adderall helps increase focus and reduces impulsivity, it is very clear why he was using it.

After he was caught and got the ban, he was just a crasher making stupid mistakes all the time. It makes you wonder how many races he'd have won before the ban if he was clean.

Taking Amphetamines to help your mental game is no different to taking Steroids to help your physical game.

studworx wrote:
You realize he only did a handful of races after the ban correct? And that was after sitting at home on the couch for almost 2...

You realize he only did a handful of races after the ban correct?

And that was after sitting at home on the couch for almost 2 years near the end of his career anyways.

He came in visually out of shape, after almost 2 years of inactivity, near the end of his career. He was battling for the lead in his first main back before colliding with Dungey (he also qualified fastest), knocking him out for over a minute. He tried racing the next weekend and THAT is where the issues started. The head knock.

Creating your own false narrative exposes your clear bias, and you post history is F'ing sad. 15 years of shitting on Stewart. Incredible. And you haven't been paid a dime to do it.

Get a life.

Wow! what is it about James Stewart that gets people all in a twist if you say anything negative about his accomplishments.  People are baggin on Chase Sexton right now, because of some of the mental mistakes he's making, but put him on Adderall, so he can react and think quicker and at the speed he's racing he might be able to compensate for those mistakes that put him on the ground and be the points leader in Supercross right now and have beaten Eli Tomac for the 2022 Motocross championship. Rules are rules and if fans don't like them, maybe the AMA and FIM should make everything is legal so everyones on a level playing field.  James Stewart almost seemed Super Human at times and I think Adderall was a big part of his success, take it away from him and he's more like his brother Malcolm and a middle of the pack rider.  Bubba was willing to take the chance of using an illegal substance to give him an edge at success, but he got caught and it's always going to be a stain on his accomplishments.   No harm in discussing what he did that got him banned for 16 months, because if it's ignored people will continue to cheat. 

2
2/23/2023 1:46pm

These arguments get a bit crazy. I mean I can come on here and say Reed was 17 points away from 2 more titles, or he was 2 ACLs away from zero (RC 2004, James 2008).

I agree with Mav, titles matter much more than wins. If Tomac manages to win this title and eclipse James in the win column, is he more successful? I'd say yes.  If he does not get this title and retires with 2 and 48+ wins I'd say James and Eli would be equal and one could easily make the argument that both underperformed in championship terms. And I say this as a big fan of both guys.

1
-MAVERICK-
Posts
67355
Joined
3/26/2015
Location
Ontario, CA
2/23/2023 2:17pm
These arguments get a bit crazy. I mean I can come on here and say Reed was 17 points away from 2 more titles, or he...

These arguments get a bit crazy. I mean I can come on here and say Reed was 17 points away from 2 more titles, or he was 2 ACLs away from zero (RC 2004, James 2008).

I agree with Mav, titles matter much more than wins. If Tomac manages to win this title and eclipse James in the win column, is he more successful? I'd say yes.  If he does not get this title and retires with 2 and 48+ wins I'd say James and Eli would be equal and one could easily make the argument that both underperformed in championship terms. And I say this as a big fan of both guys.

If Tomac ends up walking away with 2 450SX titles and 48 wins, I'd personally rank him ahead of James based on their championship results over the course of their careers. 

The same amount of titles, and a similar amount of wins, but Eli had a better SX career.

image-20230223171352-1image-20230223171402-2

4
studworx
Posts
835
Joined
1/24/2022
Location
Canada, QC, CA
2/23/2023 2:30pm
-MAVERICK- wrote:
If Tomac ends up walking away with 2 450SX titles and 48 wins, I'd personally rank him ahead of James based on their championship results over...

If Tomac ends up walking away with 2 450SX titles and 48 wins, I'd personally rank him ahead of James based on their championship results over the course of their careers. 

The same amount of titles, and a similar amount of wins, but Eli had a better SX career.

image-20230223171352-1image-20230223171402-2

Hmm you said if Eli ended with 2 450SX titles and 48 wins. Meaning if basically his career ended tomorrow.

I highly disagree. Stewart would have same titles, more wins, higher win percentage (far less starts). More wins in a single season against more notable riders in the history books. Beating better riders for titles (RC, Reed, etc).

You are a reasonable guy, I know you aren't a Stew fan and that's fine. But if you wanna bring up the stats, bring them ALL up. Don't cherry pick. Even with worse seasons, the win % is higher, he had more wins in an individual season, same titles with less starts and the competition was far more notable (add their titles and wins together and compare with the current field).

4
decano51
Posts
2825
Joined
10/5/2017
Location
Central West, NSW, AU
2/23/2023 2:41pm

what separates RC4,CR22 & JS259 is that they are all top 5 most SX wins while racing each other.... 

other than The King....

think of all these riders and title winners, history makers etc.. but to have 40+ wins in an era of RC4, Stew and Reed. wild 

1
TDeath21
Posts
6515
Joined
2/22/2011
Location
Somewhere, MO, USA
2/23/2023 4:45pm
decano51 wrote:
what separates RC4,CR22 & JS259 is that they are all top 5 most SX wins while racing each other....  other than The King.... think of all...

what separates RC4,CR22 & JS259 is that they are all top 5 most SX wins while racing each other.... 

other than The King....

think of all these riders and title winners, history makers etc.. but to have 40+ wins in an era of RC4, Stew and Reed. wild 

That’s what’s insane. 2 of them without 1 of the others might both make a run at McGrath.

3
TDeath21
Posts
6515
Joined
2/22/2011
Location
Somewhere, MO, USA
2/23/2023 6:25pm

I always like the Reed/Stewart debate. They were fierce rivals and had nearly identical careers, as far as wins and championships go. Many immediately say Stewart over Reed. It’s not quite that simple. Let’s compare:

Championships: 2 each

Wins: Stewart 50, Reed 44

Championship Finishing Positions:

03: Reed 2nd

04: Reed 1st

05: Reed 2nd, Stewart 10th

06: Reed 3rd, Stewart 2nd

07: Reed 2nd, Stewart 1st

08: Reed 1st, Stewart 23rd

09: Reed 2nd, Stewart 1st

10: Reed 17th, Stewart 20th

11: Reed 2nd, Stewart 4th

12: Reed 12th, Stewart 7th

13: Reed 5th, Stewart 10th

14: Reed 14th, Stewart 4th

15: Reed 4th

16: Reed 5th, Stewart 32nd

17: Reed 9th

18: Reed 13th

19: Reed 15th

20: Reed 16th

Reed has top 5 championship finishes before Stewart entered the class and after he left it.

H2H Championship Wins:

Reed 7 (5 excluding 2015 and 2016), Stewart 5.

Podium Championship Finishes: 

Reed 8, Stewart 3

It’s more of a debate than people realize. I get both arguments. It just doesn’t make sense to me that many just don’t even think twice and put Stewart ahead of him. Longevity and being there every year has to count for something.

4
1
tomlopez
Posts
1189
Joined
5/2/2021
Location
Saint Petersburg, FL, USA
Fantasy
2/23/2023 6:41pm
Dungey had a better SX career than Ricky and RV. Dunge raced 8 seasons, 4 titles, a 2nd, and 3 3rd overalls. Only missed 2-3 races...

Dungey had a better SX career than Ricky and RV. Dunge raced 8 seasons, 4 titles, a 2nd, and 3 3rd overalls. Only missed 2-3 races in that span. RC also raced 8 full years, 5 titles(06 is suspect, if all the races counted, JS7 is champ that year) rookie year 16th (compare that to RD) next year 5th, and in 04 he did not race. Then we look at RV, 6 seasons, 4 titles, first 2 years got broken off to get 6th and 4th, (as mentioned above in 2011 he has Dungeys chain to thank for that title) then after the titles he quit and didn’t race RD at full strength.

Both RV and RC seem to get credit for quitting early, and their non title years being such a disaster that they seem to not factor in. Where Dungey was either the best, or was right in the fight to be the best every single race he entered from the first one to the last one. 

if I’ve learned anything about this place it’s that I will get plenty of downvotes, but I will NOT get a coherent argument saying that I’m wrong about this.

Dungey definitely didn't have a better SX career than RC or RV. 

Carmichael and Dungey both raced the same amount of years in premier class SX (2007 was a retirement tour and he didn't race a full schedule, doesn't count). In those years, Carmichael won 1 more championship and won 14 more races. Not sure how in any way, shape or form Dungey's record is better. The only thing I guess is the podium streak, but when he's bested by Carmichael in titles and wins the podium streak doesn't hold any weight.

Villopoto raced 2 less 450SX seasons than Dungey and won just as many titles, as well as 7 more races. Additionally, Villopoto won those titles directly against Dungey, so it's not like you can argue that Villopoto had an easier path or anything. If anything, Villopoto had the harder path. All 4 of his titles were earned with Dungey, Stewart, and Reed in the 450 class. Only one of Dungey's titles were against that field (and Stew and Reed were hurt all year), and the other three came against Roczen and young, ridiculously inconsistent Tomac. Not saying he didn't earn them, but I'm just making the point that there's no way Dungey's titles mean more than Villopoto's.

1
tomlopez
Posts
1189
Joined
5/2/2021
Location
Saint Petersburg, FL, USA
Fantasy
2/23/2023 6:46pm
TDeath21 wrote:
I always like the Reed/Stewart debate. They were fierce rivals and had nearly identical careers, as far as wins and championships go. Many immediately say Stewart...

I always like the Reed/Stewart debate. They were fierce rivals and had nearly identical careers, as far as wins and championships go. Many immediately say Stewart over Reed. It’s not quite that simple. Let’s compare:

Championships: 2 each

Wins: Stewart 50, Reed 44

Championship Finishing Positions:

03: Reed 2nd

04: Reed 1st

05: Reed 2nd, Stewart 10th

06: Reed 3rd, Stewart 2nd

07: Reed 2nd, Stewart 1st

08: Reed 1st, Stewart 23rd

09: Reed 2nd, Stewart 1st

10: Reed 17th, Stewart 20th

11: Reed 2nd, Stewart 4th

12: Reed 12th, Stewart 7th

13: Reed 5th, Stewart 10th

14: Reed 14th, Stewart 4th

15: Reed 4th

16: Reed 5th, Stewart 32nd

17: Reed 9th

18: Reed 13th

19: Reed 15th

20: Reed 16th

Reed has top 5 championship finishes before Stewart entered the class and after he left it.

H2H Championship Wins:

Reed 7 (5 excluding 2015 and 2016), Stewart 5.

Podium Championship Finishes: 

Reed 8, Stewart 3

It’s more of a debate than people realize. I get both arguments. It just doesn’t make sense to me that many just don’t even think twice and put Stewart ahead of him. Longevity and being there every year has to count for something.

Was always a Reed fan and it could definitely be argued that he had just as successful a career as Stewart. But almost every time those two faced each other in their primes, Stewart was the better rider. I was always watching from the perspective of "will Reed find some way to beat Stewart" rather than "Reed should really win tonight but we will see".

2
1
studworx
Posts
835
Joined
1/24/2022
Location
Canada, QC, CA
2/23/2023 6:49pm

Where did Mav’s post go with the incorrect stats to discredit Stew and my post pointing out the incorrect stats?

1
decano51
Posts
2825
Joined
10/5/2017
Location
Central West, NSW, AU
2/23/2023 6:50pm
TDeath21 wrote:
I always like the Reed/Stewart debate. They were fierce rivals and had nearly identical careers, as far as wins and championships go. Many immediately say Stewart...

I always like the Reed/Stewart debate. They were fierce rivals and had nearly identical careers, as far as wins and championships go. Many immediately say Stewart over Reed. It’s not quite that simple. Let’s compare:

Championships: 2 each

Wins: Stewart 50, Reed 44

Championship Finishing Positions:

03: Reed 2nd

04: Reed 1st

05: Reed 2nd, Stewart 10th

06: Reed 3rd, Stewart 2nd

07: Reed 2nd, Stewart 1st

08: Reed 1st, Stewart 23rd

09: Reed 2nd, Stewart 1st

10: Reed 17th, Stewart 20th

11: Reed 2nd, Stewart 4th

12: Reed 12th, Stewart 7th

13: Reed 5th, Stewart 10th

14: Reed 14th, Stewart 4th

15: Reed 4th

16: Reed 5th, Stewart 32nd

17: Reed 9th

18: Reed 13th

19: Reed 15th

20: Reed 16th

Reed has top 5 championship finishes before Stewart entered the class and after he left it.

H2H Championship Wins:

Reed 7 (5 excluding 2015 and 2016), Stewart 5.

Podium Championship Finishes: 

Reed 8, Stewart 3

It’s more of a debate than people realize. I get both arguments. It just doesn’t make sense to me that many just don’t even think twice and put Stewart ahead of him. Longevity and being there every year has to count for something.

tomlopez wrote:
Was always a Reed fan and it could definitely be argued that he had just as successful a career as Stewart. But almost every time those...

Was always a Reed fan and it could definitely be argued that he had just as successful a career as Stewart. But almost every time those two faced each other in their primes, Stewart was the better rider. I was always watching from the perspective of "will Reed find some way to beat Stewart" rather than "Reed should really win tonight but we will see".

Die hard reed fan and i agree. stew was on another level.. but i always say... Cooper Webb is the modern day reed. 

 

also too.. reeds 03 rookie season could of changed the whole history books

2
Johnny Ringo
Posts
8219
Joined
1/11/2016
Location
Tombstone, AZ, USA
2/23/2023 6:53pm
dv12.com wrote:

With that reasoning, Bill RussellSam JonesTom HeinsohnK. C. JonesSatch SandersJohn HavlicekJim LoscutoffFrank RamseyRobert Horry are all in front of Michael Jordan in the NBA Top 10 All Time... haha

Stew should be 3rd at the least on that list. No disrespect to RD, RV, Hannah and Stanton, but they should not be in the same sentence as Bubba... 

Park Boys wrote:
To say Hannah and RV should not be in the same sentence as a stretch. James is the single greatest force we have ever seen and...

To say Hannah and RV should not be in the same sentence as a stretch. James is the single greatest force we have ever seen and his 07 season is easily the greatest of all time. That being said there is no discussion where RV is not front and center. He’s arguably the second greatest racer of all time. 

Curious as to why you say Stews 07 was easily the greatest of all time compared to MC in 96 and RC in 01? Margin of victory? I agree it’s an all timer just curious on your thoughts on it

1
TDeath21
Posts
6515
Joined
2/22/2011
Location
Somewhere, MO, USA
2/23/2023 6:57pm
TDeath21 wrote:
I always like the Reed/Stewart debate. They were fierce rivals and had nearly identical careers, as far as wins and championships go. Many immediately say Stewart...

I always like the Reed/Stewart debate. They were fierce rivals and had nearly identical careers, as far as wins and championships go. Many immediately say Stewart over Reed. It’s not quite that simple. Let’s compare:

Championships: 2 each

Wins: Stewart 50, Reed 44

Championship Finishing Positions:

03: Reed 2nd

04: Reed 1st

05: Reed 2nd, Stewart 10th

06: Reed 3rd, Stewart 2nd

07: Reed 2nd, Stewart 1st

08: Reed 1st, Stewart 23rd

09: Reed 2nd, Stewart 1st

10: Reed 17th, Stewart 20th

11: Reed 2nd, Stewart 4th

12: Reed 12th, Stewart 7th

13: Reed 5th, Stewart 10th

14: Reed 14th, Stewart 4th

15: Reed 4th

16: Reed 5th, Stewart 32nd

17: Reed 9th

18: Reed 13th

19: Reed 15th

20: Reed 16th

Reed has top 5 championship finishes before Stewart entered the class and after he left it.

H2H Championship Wins:

Reed 7 (5 excluding 2015 and 2016), Stewart 5.

Podium Championship Finishes: 

Reed 8, Stewart 3

It’s more of a debate than people realize. I get both arguments. It just doesn’t make sense to me that many just don’t even think twice and put Stewart ahead of him. Longevity and being there every year has to count for something.

tomlopez wrote:
Was always a Reed fan and it could definitely be argued that he had just as successful a career as Stewart. But almost every time those...

Was always a Reed fan and it could definitely be argued that he had just as successful a career as Stewart. But almost every time those two faced each other in their primes, Stewart was the better rider. I was always watching from the perspective of "will Reed find some way to beat Stewart" rather than "Reed should really win tonight but we will see".

Reed was the one left behind in 06 when the 4 strokes took over. He was right there them both in 05 (and with RC in 03) and never really was on the 450. Not till 09 anyway when he got on the Suzuki. Not sure if it was the Yamaha or just he himself not adjusting as fast as Stewart or Carmichael. I wish we could have gotten a few more years of those guys on the 2 stroke.

3
1
JMR1976
Posts
1159
Joined
5/15/2015
Location
Aptos, CA, USA
2/23/2023 7:35pm

JMB

1
TDeath21
Posts
6515
Joined
2/22/2011
Location
Somewhere, MO, USA
2/23/2023 7:40pm
Curious as to why you say Stews 07 was easily the greatest of all time compared to MC in 96 and RC in 01? Margin of...

Curious as to why you say Stews 07 was easily the greatest of all time compared to MC in 96 and RC in 01? Margin of victory? I agree it’s an all timer just curious on your thoughts on it

I’m guessing he meant to say “one of” in there before the greatest. I just don’t see how that season can be argued to be above either of the 2 you mentioned. 

1
-MAVERICK-
Posts
67355
Joined
3/26/2015
Location
Ontario, CA
2/23/2023 7:56pm
-MAVERICK- wrote:
If Tomac ends up walking away with 2 450SX titles and 48 wins, I'd personally rank him ahead of James based on their championship results over...

If Tomac ends up walking away with 2 450SX titles and 48 wins, I'd personally rank him ahead of James based on their championship results over the course of their careers. 

The same amount of titles, and a similar amount of wins, but Eli had a better SX career.

image-20230223171352-1image-20230223171402-2

studworx wrote:
Hmm you said if Eli ended with 2 450SX titles and 48 wins. Meaning if basically his career ended tomorrow. I highly disagree. Stewart would have...

Hmm you said if Eli ended with 2 450SX titles and 48 wins. Meaning if basically his career ended tomorrow.

I highly disagree. Stewart would have same titles, more wins, higher win percentage (far less starts). More wins in a single season against more notable riders in the history books. Beating better riders for titles (RC, Reed, etc).

You are a reasonable guy, I know you aren't a Stew fan and that's fine. But if you wanna bring up the stats, bring them ALL up. Don't cherry pick. Even with worse seasons, the win % is higher, he had more wins in an individual season, same titles with less starts and the competition was far more notable (add their titles and wins together and compare with the current field).

RE-POSTING.

I didn't save it so had to redo it.

I made an error in the number of races Eli completed vs the number of potential races he could've attended. I put down the right amount of races, I just didn't correct the number of races he attended before posting. 

I also made an error in the number of Top 10 James has. I previously wrote 112 when it's 101.

You wanted me to compliment James, and that's easy. James did amazing things on a motorcycle and he was a joy to watch. Now we get to enjoy his insights on Bubba's World. I believe we're getting him full-time for outdoors with Weege, so the broadcast stepped it up a notch. 

James Stewart:

2x 450 SX Champion (2007 & 2009)

Completed 122 races out of a possible 201 races.
76 Podiums
50 wins
2nd - 15x
3rd - 11x
Top 5 - 87
Top 10 - 101
Most Wins in a Season: 12 in 2007
Number of Seasons: 11, including 2015
450 Career Points Scored: 2260

Eli Tomac:

2x 450 SX Champion (2020 & 2022)

*Includes up to Oakland 2023

Completed 149 races out of a possible 159 races.
87 Podiums
48 wins
2nd - 23x
3rd - 16x
Top 5 - 111 
Top 10 - 135 
Most Wins in a Season: 9 in 2017
450 Career Points Scored: 2951
Number of Seasons: Currently in 10th

Including the 4 races he did on the opposite coast when he was on a 250:

Completed 153 races out of a possible 163 races.
Top 5 - 112
Top 10 - 137
450 Career Points Scored: 3003

1
-MAVERICK-
Posts
67355
Joined
3/26/2015
Location
Ontario, CA
2/23/2023 8:00pm
studworx wrote:

Where did Mav’s post go with the incorrect stats to discredit Stew and my post pointing out the incorrect stats?

I didn't discredit him. I made a simple clerical error. It happens. 

Also, one got caught cheating and got arrested for impersonating a police officer. That rubs some people the wrong way. Me, I don't care. We all do stupid things, myself included. I never got caught, so I never got arrested. Laughing  

studworx
Posts
835
Joined
1/24/2022
Location
Canada, QC, CA
2/23/2023 8:12pm
studworx wrote:

Where did Mav’s post go with the incorrect stats to discredit Stew and my post pointing out the incorrect stats?

-MAVERICK- wrote:
I didn't discredit him. I made a simple clerical error. It happens.  Also, one got caught cheating and got arrested for impersonating a police officer. That...

I didn't discredit him. I made a simple clerical error. It happens. 

Also, one got caught cheating and got arrested for impersonating a police officer. That rubs some people the wrong way. Me, I don't care. We all do stupid things, myself included. I never got caught, so I never got arrested. Laughing  

Mav I’m yankin your chain. 
 

I always appreciate the bench racing with you. Always keeping it respectful regardless if stance. 
 

We disagree on this. That’s fine, we’ll both sleep fine tonight. I’m a massive ET fan and a massive JS fan but being a kid through JS7’s career, maybe I’m bias towards him in a direct comparison. But such a fan of both of these legends. 
 

1
FARANG
Posts
861
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
2/23/2023 8:58pm
I look at James Bubba Stewart the same way I look at Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa,  Mark McGuire or Lance Armstrong, they all used illegal performance...

I look at James Bubba Stewart the same way I look at Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa,  Mark McGuire or Lance Armstrong, they all used illegal performance enhancing drugs to increase their ability to succeed in their sports.  Once James Stewart was caught and then not allowed to use Adderall anymore, he was never the same rider and couldn't win anymore.  Thats a big problem when athletes cheat, because it makes you wonder if their competition that was racing on natural ability had used the same performance enhancing drugs cheater did, would they have actually been faster themselves and won more races.  I'll admit James Stewart was fun to watch, but his records will be forever tainted by his banned drug use, so I don't think he even deserves to be on the same list as those racers that did it the natural way. 

FARANG wrote:
It's a very good point, but not too popular on here. It seems fairly obvious that he was using unlimited amounts of Adderall (Amphetamine) to help...

It's a very good point, but not too popular on here.

It seems fairly obvious that he was using unlimited amounts of Adderall (Amphetamine) to help his mental game, to help him concentrate for a full race. He still had the odd brain fart but generally he could hold it together. Given that Adderall helps increase focus and reduces impulsivity, it is very clear why he was using it.

After he was caught and got the ban, he was just a crasher making stupid mistakes all the time. It makes you wonder how many races he'd have won before the ban if he was clean.

Taking Amphetamines to help your mental game is no different to taking Steroids to help your physical game.

studworx wrote:
You realize he only did a handful of races after the ban correct? And that was after sitting at home on the couch for almost 2...

You realize he only did a handful of races after the ban correct?

And that was after sitting at home on the couch for almost 2 years near the end of his career anyways.

He came in visually out of shape, after almost 2 years of inactivity, near the end of his career. He was battling for the lead in his first main back before colliding with Dungey (he also qualified fastest), knocking him out for over a minute. He tried racing the next weekend and THAT is where the issues started. The head knock.

Creating your own false narrative exposes your clear bias, and you post history is F'ing sad. 15 years of shitting on Stewart. Incredible. And you haven't been paid a dime to do it.

Get a life.

Is that you James?

The facts are that he tested positive for the PED Amphetamine and when he came back from the ban with a TUE for a limited amount of the drug he couldn't keep it on 2 wheels. I give credit where it's due, he was fast and had massive cajones. He did a great scrub. I just don't accept the fact that he's the most talented or whatever. If he was that talented, he'd have been able to go fast without ragdolling himself down the track so often. I believe he had issues concentrating for a whole moto which is why he turned to Adderal which increases focus and reduces anxiety and impulsivity. Great for someone's mental game in a sport like this.

I didn't like the Reed incident, the cop impersonator incident, the PEDs issue but that has nothing to do with the facts about his career.

3
Original 44
Posts
531
Joined
12/4/2008
Location
Chardon, OH, USA
2/23/2023 9:23pm
studworx wrote:
Hmm you said if Eli ended with 2 450SX titles and 48 wins. Meaning if basically his career ended tomorrow. I highly disagree. Stewart would have...

Hmm you said if Eli ended with 2 450SX titles and 48 wins. Meaning if basically his career ended tomorrow.

I highly disagree. Stewart would have same titles, more wins, higher win percentage (far less starts). More wins in a single season against more notable riders in the history books. Beating better riders for titles (RC, Reed, etc).

You are a reasonable guy, I know you aren't a Stew fan and that's fine. But if you wanna bring up the stats, bring them ALL up. Don't cherry pick. Even with worse seasons, the win % is higher, he had more wins in an individual season, same titles with less starts and the competition was far more notable (add their titles and wins together and compare with the current field).

James never beat RC for a championship.

1
1
studworx
Posts
835
Joined
1/24/2022
Location
Canada, QC, CA
2/23/2023 9:37pm

James never beat RC for a championship.

2007 SX. He dominated RC. Who, while yes was in his final year, still came back to win outdoors. He was still in top form (remember, be retired in his prime). 
 

He won 5 of the 7 races RC competed in that year. RC winning the other 2. James was ahead in points when RC bowed out of the series. 

1
-MAVERICK-
Posts
67355
Joined
3/26/2015
Location
Ontario, CA
2/23/2023 9:38pm

James never beat RC for a championship.

Fun Fact: James only beat RC 3 times outdoors. The most successful guy to beat RC outdoors was Windham who did so 7 times. 

4
studworx
Posts
835
Joined
1/24/2022
Location
Canada, QC, CA
2/23/2023 9:45pm

James never beat RC for a championship.

-MAVERICK- wrote:

Fun Fact: James only beat RC 3 times outdoors. The most successful guy to beat RC outdoors was Windham who did so 7 times. 

They don’t call RC the GOAT for no reason…

Windham had many many more starts vs RC outdoors than James did. 
 

08 James vs RC would have been a fun battle I believe. Maybe throw in 2015 Tomac and we have a party. 

3
1
Original 44
Posts
531
Joined
12/4/2008
Location
Chardon, OH, USA
2/23/2023 10:10pm

James never beat RC for a championship.

studworx wrote:
2007 SX. He dominated RC. Who, while yes was in his final year, still came back to win outdoors. He was still in top form (remember...

2007 SX. He dominated RC. Who, while yes was in his final year, still came back to win outdoors. He was still in top form (remember, be retired in his prime). 
 

He won 5 of the 7 races RC competed in that year. RC winning the other 2. James was ahead in points when RC bowed out of the series. 

Everyone know that RC was only race a limited number of races that year. He was not racing for the Championship. 
 

If you want to play that games RC would have won the 450 outdoor championships that year, but only raced a limited number of races. He won the first 5 races and was leading the Championship when he stepped away. He did come back to Millville and won that race also. Bottom line he said he was race a limited number of races and that’s exactly what he did in both series.

Original 44
Posts
531
Joined
12/4/2008
Location
Chardon, OH, USA
2/23/2023 10:14pm
studworx wrote:
They don’t call RC the GOAT for no reason… Windham had many many more starts vs RC outdoors than James did.    08 James vs RC...

They don’t call RC the GOAT for no reason…

Windham had many many more starts vs RC outdoors than James did. 
 

08 James vs RC would have been a fun battle I believe. Maybe throw in 2015 Tomac and we have a party. 

The sad part as fans was watching them retire. To think that James, RC and Chad had all those win and raced against each other. How many more wins could they have had if they didn’t have to race each other. 

3

Post a reply to: SX all time top 10

The Latest