Leatt Brace

MXgirl517
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9/2/2009 3:07pm
I would rather risk the other areas.
9/2/2009 3:08pm
I'm not sure why you keep asking for this Nerd...but here you go...now shut up already Wink

Btw...I wear one....feel wierd without it now...kinda like forgetting my knee braces at home.
worcsracer808
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9/2/2009 3:09pm
i see what you are saying Nerd people are acting like the brace can do no wrong it might not help but it wont hurt is how they feel about it, but nobody knows for sure and data would show that. Who knows what would be better, more flex on the neck or more imact to your head? or more flex on the neck vs more pressure on the spine and collarbones, cause not all flex equals break. Say someone crashed with leatt broke their spine and collarbone but are greatful when they think it could have been worse, but say they had the exact same crash without the brace and had a stiff neck for a week. Which sounds worse? How can we know? I understand both sides of the argument and for me price is part of it, I don't want what is a glorified neck donut (evs) I don't like the feel of the leatt, can't look where I want to and it's not comfy, and can't afford the A-star and not even sold on the idea of neck braces yet so once the Astar makes the cheap one I will try it out and see what I think would be the most beneficial to me.
Nerd
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9/2/2009 3:10pm
MXgirl517 wrote:
I would rather risk the other areas.
You don't even know what they are!

None of us know it, nor do we know if there are other areas.

What if you're 1/2 as likely to suffer a C1-C6 fracture, but 5x more likely to suffer a C7?

Would you still rather risk it?

This is why data matters. Not Data, data.

Smile

The Shop

flyfishnw
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9/2/2009 3:27pm
So the big argument is does a Leatt work, why are they not required?

It is tragic when a rider goes down and suffers any injury.

So I ask this question, Should a track make it mandatory to show proof of health insurance to ride? In a sport where an injury will occur, most likely not life altering, but a trip to the emergency room none the less, do you ride or race without the ability to take care of yourself in the unlikely event of a major accident?

Insurance is required to drive a car. I bet there are far fewer injuries per capita to automobile drivers then there are to riders in MX.

What is your feeling on this? Should mx riders be self insured by relying on donations from individuals in the event of a life altering accident, or required to show some sort of financial responsibility in the form of insurance coverage?
MXgirl517
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9/2/2009 3:45pm
Since this could go on forever, I will just say that I choose to wear one because I'm taking a chance that it works, and you choose not to because you're taking a chance that it doesn't. Thanks for the debate.
mooch
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9/2/2009 3:46pm
Nerd, do you wear knee braces?

Also, how the heck do you ever determine which helmet to buy as there is no data to support which helmet will do the best job in an mx related get off. Do you simply buy the most expensive helmet, the one that looks the best, how the heck do you make that decision with zero data to go on.
worcsracer808
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9/2/2009 3:55pm
flyfishnw wrote:
So the big argument is does a Leatt work, why are they not required? It is tragic when a rider goes down and suffers any injury...
So the big argument is does a Leatt work, why are they not required?

It is tragic when a rider goes down and suffers any injury.

So I ask this question, Should a track make it mandatory to show proof of health insurance to ride? In a sport where an injury will occur, most likely not life altering, but a trip to the emergency room none the less, do you ride or race without the ability to take care of yourself in the unlikely event of a major accident?

Insurance is required to drive a car. I bet there are far fewer injuries per capita to automobile drivers then there are to riders in MX.

What is your feeling on this? Should mx riders be self insured by relying on donations from individuals in the event of a life altering accident, or required to show some sort of financial responsibility in the form of insurance coverage?
having the health insurance coverage for admission to a track makes more sense then requiring them to wear a leatt at your track, and if you do that you're loosing alot of good riders who would ride at your track if there wasn't the leatt rule. Im not sure if the insurance thing is a good idea but alot better one than mandatory leatt for the track.
txmxer
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9/2/2009 4:05pm
Racer92 wrote:
I agree with Nerd 100%. The brace may be awesome, maybe not, if there was definitive proof of that it would the first thing you read...
I agree with Nerd 100%. The brace may be awesome, maybe not, if there was definitive proof of that it would the first thing you read in advertisements. There is nothing wrong with a person asking for data before spending their money or using something on their own body.

If folks wanna use them based on faith, I say go for it. But dont get miffed at Nerd for how he views these matters either. I for one am the exact same way.
txmxer wrote:
I agree with this. But, he made a long speech about facts and data and not being phased by emotion, then said he wears one sometimes...
I agree with this. But, he made a long speech about facts and data and not being phased by emotion, then said he wears one sometimes.

I'm curious why he wears one at all.
Nerd wrote:
No, I said I have one, and it's mainly a matter of comfort why I don't continue to wear it. The thing is, I would deal...
No, I said I have one, and it's mainly a matter of comfort why I don't continue to wear it.

The thing is, I would deal with comfort problems if there was data showing its effectiveness. However, since I don't have the data, I don't worry about dealing with the comfort problems.
Why did you get one in the first place?
jndmx
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9/2/2009 4:12pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 1:56am
I stick by my original post which is that it is a matter of choice, if you choose to wear one great if not well that's fine too.

My question in regards to Nerds cry for data, data....almighty data damn it!! is this;

Who does the testing?
The folks at Leatt have been testing their product and have shown results but as Dave pointed out that can be interpreted as marketing rather than independent testing.

Who could do an independent test on this to an extent that the results would be conclusive?
What are the parameters?
Who the heck is going to volunteer to keep falling on their head?

OK that last one was a joke but seriously how do you test it in real world circumstances?
Rupert X
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9/2/2009 4:19pm


The best testimonial for me, was that I saw my friend Dr. Mark Russell wear one and

he ensures his kids do, too.

David Bailey's plea was also a factor.

I truly hate wearing it, even after a year or so.

I sometimes take it off for dinner though, naturally.

Or canoodling.

Jack Flash
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9/2/2009 4:38pm
mooch wrote:
Nerd, do you wear knee braces? Also, how the heck do you ever determine which helmet to buy as there is no data to support which...
Nerd, do you wear knee braces?

Also, how the heck do you ever determine which helmet to buy as there is no data to support which helmet will do the best job in an mx related get off. Do you simply buy the most expensive helmet, the one that looks the best, how the heck do you make that decision with zero data to go on.
There is is no way in hell Nerd would wear knee braces as there is no data to prove that they prevent knee injuries.
spdy566
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New Albany, IN, USA
9/2/2009 4:57pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 1:56am
in response to nerds
R C helmet to sternum deal , I had a similer crash at crytel coast mx in north carolina last july.I endoed and took one hell of a head shot , my head went so far forward it broke the mouth guard off my fox v3 pro pilot lid and cracked the top of my sternum thru my chest protector. I always refused to wear a neck brace.I am 42 and have rode and raced motocross for 32 years . i ve taken many bad licks in this sport and broken some bones but that crash was the scariest. My wife bought me a neck brace so i wouldnt quit and the first 2 times i wore it i hated it. now i dont even know its on . I believe its by the shear grace of god I didnt break my neck that day and i will never ride or race again without one.
spdy566
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9/2/2009 4:58pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 1:56am
in response to nerds
R C helmet to sternum deal , I had a similer crash at crytel coast mx in north carolina last july.I endoed and took one hell of a head shot , my head went so far forward it broke the mouth guard off my fox v3 pro pilot lid and cracked the top of my sternum thru my chest protector. I always refused to wear a neck brace.I am 42 and have rode and raced motocross for 32 years . i ve taken many bad licks in this sport and broken some bones but that crash was the scariest. My wife bought me a neck brace so i wouldnt quit and the first 2 times i wore it i hated it. now i dont even know its on . I believe its by the shear grace of god I didnt break my neck that day and i will never ride or race again without one.
flarider
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9/2/2009 5:05pm
mooch wrote:
Nerd, do you wear knee braces? Also, how the heck do you ever determine which helmet to buy as there is no data to support which...
Nerd, do you wear knee braces?

Also, how the heck do you ever determine which helmet to buy as there is no data to support which helmet will do the best job in an mx related get off. Do you simply buy the most expensive helmet, the one that looks the best, how the heck do you make that decision with zero data to go on.
Jack Flash wrote:
There is is no way in hell Nerd would wear knee braces as there is no data to prove that they prevent knee injuries.
I can (and have in the past) provide data stating that a knee brace should NOT be used for preventative medicine, but should be used for post-op/post-injury....basically, you use a knee brace after you hurt you knee, not before.
It makes the muscles in your knee lazy or less strong because the knee brace compensates
mooch
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Fantasy
9/2/2009 5:28pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 1:56am
mooch wrote:
Nerd, do you wear knee braces? Also, how the heck do you ever determine which helmet to buy as there is no data to support which...
Nerd, do you wear knee braces?

Also, how the heck do you ever determine which helmet to buy as there is no data to support which helmet will do the best job in an mx related get off. Do you simply buy the most expensive helmet, the one that looks the best, how the heck do you make that decision with zero data to go on.
Jack Flash wrote:
There is is no way in hell Nerd would wear knee braces as there is no data to prove that they prevent knee injuries.
flarider wrote:
I can (and have in the past) provide data stating that a knee brace should NOT be used for preventative medicine, but should be used for...
I can (and have in the past) provide data stating that a knee brace should NOT be used for preventative medicine, but should be used for post-op/post-injury....basically, you use a knee brace after you hurt you knee, not before.
It makes the muscles in your knee lazy or less strong because the knee brace compensates
Yep, I just figured if Nerd was wearing knee braces I'd ask him what data had lead him to that decision.


Nerd, exactly what data is it that you use when selecting the best possible helmet ?


With so many helmets to choose from, I figured you'd be able to clue me in on what data is out there that indicates which helmet is best for mx.
Rupert X
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9/2/2009 5:35pm


I think teeth braces are just for looks.








Friday
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9/2/2009 5:41pm
Rupert X wrote:
The best testimonial for me, was that I saw my friend Dr. Mark Russell wear one and he ensures his kids do, too. David Bailey's plea...


The best testimonial for me, was that I saw my friend Dr. Mark Russell wear one and

he ensures his kids do, too.

David Bailey's plea was also a factor.

I truly hate wearing it, even after a year or so.

I sometimes take it off for dinner though, naturally.

Or canoodling.

I even wear it for the latter on occasion...................I've been known to meet some crazy young women in LA.Gotta protect yourself. Tongue
adamdf
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9/2/2009 5:44pm Edited Date/Time 9/2/2009 5:48pm
The biggest thing for me is that i don't see the harm in wearing one! So why not? I personaly don't even notice its on anymore, it's very comfortable for me.

Also, i would recommend doing a further search on this topic over at thumpertalk for anyone who would like to read some informative discussion, Dr Mark has made several posts over there on this and the discussion has been quite vast.
9/2/2009 5:48pm
jndmx wrote:
I stick by my original post which is that it is a matter of choice, if you choose to wear one great if not well that's...
I stick by my original post which is that it is a matter of choice, if you choose to wear one great if not well that's fine too.

My question in regards to Nerds cry for data, data....almighty data damn it!! is this;

Who does the testing?
The folks at Leatt have been testing their product and have shown results but as Dave pointed out that can be interpreted as marketing rather than independent testing.

Who could do an independent test on this to an extent that the results would be conclusive?
What are the parameters?
Who the heck is going to volunteer to keep falling on their head?

OK that last one was a joke but seriously how do you test it in real world circumstances?
SFI does the rating for the race car braces, there are multipule types of devices for car racing,

there is the Han's, teh Hutchins, the Leatt Moto R, and a Hybrid, there is a SFi Test for them and some organisations make you use them,

i race a Dirt Car, i run a leatt Moto R as it best suits the type of driving i do, along with the seat and cockpit layout i run, there was resonable discussion between the brands, and i choose the one that best met my setup,

i believe that the Leatt was sold alot on emotion, rather than a set of critera, i do not knock anyone for wearing them, i sell the and are a stockest of the Leatt, A Star and EVS Braces,

i am just with Nerd on this, i have yet to see the testing to make me feel like wearing one will reduce my chances of injury.
sc961
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9/2/2009 6:12pm
sc961 wrote:
[b]But the brace very well may significantly reduce the likelihood of SCIs. But how do we know?[/b] Nerd, is the data that important? Wouldn't common sense...
But the brace very well may significantly reduce the likelihood of SCIs. But how do we know? Nerd, is the data that important? Wouldn't common sense dictate a brace would help prevent a more major injury than if you didn't have it on? No doubt collar bones and such are more at risk with the brace. I don't think anyone argued that point, or maybe they did. I don't care if you or anyone else chooses not to wear one. I'm just wondering why the need for "proof" is so important? Every claim can be made either less or more true by the people fighting for that side of the discussion. It's cool that people can decide if they want to or not. There should be more things left up to choice, but that is probably more talked about in non moto.. Unsure
Nerd wrote:
Why is the need for proof EVER [i]NOT[/i] important?! This sort of thinking is why Nigerians steal hundreds of millions of dollars every year through email...
Why is the need for proof EVER NOT important?!

This sort of thinking is why Nigerians steal hundreds of millions of dollars every year through email scams.

And no, I'm not comparing the braces to Nigerian email scams, just the fact that people seem to be okay with not having proof of things.

It seems to me that companies that sell these neck braces would WANT to put together the data to prove exactly how effective their braces are. What better advertising could there be than if an ad said, "Independent studies have suggested that wearing a Leatt Brace reduces your risk of suffering a spinal-cord injury by 75%."?

Who wouldn't buy one and wear it religiously when confronted with a number like that?
You got me there Nerd. The Leatt brace and Nigerian e-mail scams are like two peas in a pod.

Maybe the Nigerians could work a deal with the Leatt company to market them in their e-mail scams.

Could work out good for both of them? At least that's what all the available research says....
Jack Flash
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9/2/2009 6:17pm
mooch wrote:
Nerd, do you wear knee braces? Also, how the heck do you ever determine which helmet to buy as there is no data to support which...
Nerd, do you wear knee braces?

Also, how the heck do you ever determine which helmet to buy as there is no data to support which helmet will do the best job in an mx related get off. Do you simply buy the most expensive helmet, the one that looks the best, how the heck do you make that decision with zero data to go on.
Jack Flash wrote:
There is is no way in hell Nerd would wear knee braces as there is no data to prove that they prevent knee injuries.
flarider wrote:
I can (and have in the past) provide data stating that a knee brace should NOT be used for preventative medicine, but should be used for...
I can (and have in the past) provide data stating that a knee brace should NOT be used for preventative medicine, but should be used for post-op/post-injury....basically, you use a knee brace after you hurt you knee, not before.
It makes the muscles in your knee lazy or less strong because the knee brace compensates
Are you talking about one of these Flarider?
Correct, the stretchy ones should not be used for the reason you gave


I was talking about one of these, the type that will not make your knee lazy or less strong and that actually have very limited effectiveness in preventing internal knee injuries.

I wonder if Nerd wears something like this for his knees??



Pat327
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9/2/2009 6:34pm
This thread is making me have a datagasm.
Nerd
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9/2/2009 6:47pm
MXgirl517 wrote:
Since this could go on forever, I will just say that I choose to wear one because I'm taking a chance that it works, and you...
Since this could go on forever, I will just say that I choose to wear one because I'm taking a chance that it works, and you choose not to because you're taking a chance that it doesn't. Thanks for the debate.
But in your original post, you asked why some people didn't wear them. I pointed out why, and then you and everyone else started to argue with me.
Nerd
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9/2/2009 6:52pm
mooch wrote:
Nerd, do you wear knee braces? Also, how the heck do you ever determine which helmet to buy as there is no data to support which...
Nerd, do you wear knee braces?

Also, how the heck do you ever determine which helmet to buy as there is no data to support which helmet will do the best job in an mx related get off. Do you simply buy the most expensive helmet, the one that looks the best, how the heck do you make that decision with zero data to go on.
No. I used to, because I used to have a lot of knee problems, but all my years of not riding, and riding sparingly, have let my knees recover, so now I just wear knee pads and I stretch really, really good every day.

As for helmets, I look into the construction, and the reasoning for doing what they do, and I wear the one that I believe in. Right now, that's typically the new Shoei because I really liked the fact that it has different densities of foam for different sizes, because someone like me who wears an XL is very likely to weigh more than Jake Weimer, who wears and XS. Higher weight means more energy as you hit the ground, and that means you need denser foam to distribute such a large amount of energy.

The science is sound, and that's what I typically wear. Prior to the new Shoei, I typically wore the Arai for similar reasons.

It's not about price, although it's probably no coincidence that those two helmets cost more than the others.
sc961
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9/2/2009 6:56pm
MXgirl517 wrote:
Since this could go on forever, I will just say that I choose to wear one because I'm taking a chance that it works, and you...
Since this could go on forever, I will just say that I choose to wear one because I'm taking a chance that it works, and you choose not to because you're taking a chance that it doesn't. Thanks for the debate.
Nerd wrote:
But in your original post, you asked why some people didn't wear them. I pointed out why, and then you and everyone else started to argue...
But in your original post, you asked why some people didn't wear them. I pointed out why, and then you and everyone else started to argue with me.
I don't believe I argued, but could be wrong.

I put a situation out there, with some personal opinion. You on the other hand, compared my comments to a Nigerian e-mail scam.......
jndmx
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9/2/2009 6:57pm
MXgirl517 wrote:
Since this could go on forever, I will just say that I choose to wear one because I'm taking a chance that it works, and you...
Since this could go on forever, I will just say that I choose to wear one because I'm taking a chance that it works, and you choose not to because you're taking a chance that it doesn't. Thanks for the debate.
Nerd wrote:
But in your original post, you asked why some people didn't wear them. I pointed out why, and then you and everyone else started to argue...
But in your original post, you asked why some people didn't wear them. I pointed out why, and then you and everyone else started to argue with me.
For the record I never argued with you.
I am all about choice and I don't knock anybody for their decision.

I have made mine and you have made yours.

I would love to see some realistic testing and be able to understand what the Leatt does and does not do.
In the meantime though I have to go with my feeling that it is a good idea to wear one.

Nothing is foolproof, hell my son wears full safety gear all the time and last year he went out and hit a kids bike that crashed in front of him going over a jump and ended up with a compression fracture to his L-1.

No matter what there is always a chance of injury when you do something dangerous.
Rupert X
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9/2/2009 6:57pm


I guess one way to look at the Leatt, scientifically, is - if you had kids riding -

would you want them to wear it ?




*And I meant Scientific in a real-deep philosophical sense of which i can't explain, yet

the vibe has been dispatched, nonetheless.
Nerd
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9/2/2009 6:59pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 1:56am
sc961 wrote:
[b]But the brace very well may significantly reduce the likelihood of SCIs. But how do we know?[/b] Nerd, is the data that important? Wouldn't common sense...
But the brace very well may significantly reduce the likelihood of SCIs. But how do we know? Nerd, is the data that important? Wouldn't common sense dictate a brace would help prevent a more major injury than if you didn't have it on? No doubt collar bones and such are more at risk with the brace. I don't think anyone argued that point, or maybe they did. I don't care if you or anyone else chooses not to wear one. I'm just wondering why the need for "proof" is so important? Every claim can be made either less or more true by the people fighting for that side of the discussion. It's cool that people can decide if they want to or not. There should be more things left up to choice, but that is probably more talked about in non moto.. Unsure
Nerd wrote:
Why is the need for proof EVER [i]NOT[/i] important?! This sort of thinking is why Nigerians steal hundreds of millions of dollars every year through email...
Why is the need for proof EVER NOT important?!

This sort of thinking is why Nigerians steal hundreds of millions of dollars every year through email scams.

And no, I'm not comparing the braces to Nigerian email scams, just the fact that people seem to be okay with not having proof of things.

It seems to me that companies that sell these neck braces would WANT to put together the data to prove exactly how effective their braces are. What better advertising could there be than if an ad said, "Independent studies have suggested that wearing a Leatt Brace reduces your risk of suffering a spinal-cord injury by 75%."?

Who wouldn't buy one and wear it religiously when confronted with a number like that?
sc961 wrote:
You got me there Nerd. The Leatt brace and Nigerian e-mail scams are like two peas in a pod. Maybe the Nigerians could work a deal...
You got me there Nerd. The Leatt brace and Nigerian e-mail scams are like two peas in a pod.

Maybe the Nigerians could work a deal with the Leatt company to market them in their e-mail scams.

Could work out good for both of them? At least that's what all the available research says....
You guys are amazing. Did you even read my post that you quoted?


I'll quote myself:


And no, I'm not comparing the braces to Nigerian email scams, just the fact that people seem to be okay with not having proof of things.


I swear, the more I talk about this with you guys, and the more you refuse to acknowledge a need for actual evidence, the more I start to think you guys are like 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists.


I just saw a show about that the other day on the National Geographic Channel, and at the end they broke down the psychology of the conspiracy folks, and what it boils down to is a need to believe that there is order and reason to the world. They believe that 9/11 was an inside job despite all the evidence to the contrary because it's more comforting for them to believe there was a master plan. They don't like that it was that easy for a bunch of nuts to take over airliners and fly them into buildings.


Similarly, even though I have not said a single time in here that the braces are bad or that people shouldn't wear them (only stating that I need more data before I commit, and that others should want the data, too), you guys are going out of your way to misrepresent arguments, appeal to emotion, give personal experiences ("I saw a kid lawn-dart and there's no way he would've been okay without the Leatt Brace."), etc. So I think maybe part of this is that people want to believe that they're safer from their biggest fear - paralysis - so they can ride without as much fear in the back of their heads. And that's fine. But not all of us have to worry about that fear. And honestly, I think that fear creates more crashes than anything.


None of that means anything.


And perhaps the biggest irony of all of this is that I've been around and I've seen a lot of very, very bad crashes, and have been in a few myself, and the ones in my experience that ended in paralysis were normally not very bad crashes at all. When Mike Young got paralyzed out at Glen Helen, his crash didn't look ridiculously bad. It was bad, but the lap before that, Larry Brooks went down WAY harder and got up and rode back to the pits. I was there.


I heard the same thing about Ernesto's crash, that it looked routine.


So the reality seems to be it's not a matter of the severity of the crash, but rather how you crash that really matters, so all of these appeals about seeing someone land on their head and how the brace saved them from being paralyzed, they don't even necessarily apply to the real world.


I mean, in some situations, they might. The brace might have prevented a lot of those people from being paralyzed.


But how do we know?
Nerd
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9/2/2009 7:00pm
MXgirl517 wrote:
Since this could go on forever, I will just say that I choose to wear one because I'm taking a chance that it works, and you...
Since this could go on forever, I will just say that I choose to wear one because I'm taking a chance that it works, and you choose not to because you're taking a chance that it doesn't. Thanks for the debate.
Nerd wrote:
But in your original post, you asked why some people didn't wear them. I pointed out why, and then you and everyone else started to argue...
But in your original post, you asked why some people didn't wear them. I pointed out why, and then you and everyone else started to argue with me.
sc961 wrote:
I don't believe I argued, but could be wrong. I put a situation out there, with some personal opinion. You on the other hand, compared my...
I don't believe I argued, but could be wrong.

I put a situation out there, with some personal opinion. You on the other hand, compared my comments to a Nigerian e-mail scam.......
Nope, I didn't.

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