Davey's Right.

Rupert X
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Rupert X 8/21/2009 7:48pm
8/21/2009 7:48pm
Ing wrote:
I agree, but...... if their already racing and traveling the country why not make the family and yourself a bit of cash? IF you have the...
I agree, but...... if their already racing and traveling the country why not make the family and yourself a bit of cash? IF you have the skills. Sorry, I just don't see the difference between a serious amateur and a pro rider as far as the welfare of the child/man is concerned. I held a pro license when I was 16 and was injured and out by the time I was 17. My chance of injury wasn't increased or decreased by which series I rode. IMO. One thing is for certain, I did get a chance to ride with the pros which I wouldn't have had if I couldn't have turned pro until 18. Once in a lifetime experience I would have missed.

Dig it. It's a difficult task, to assign random success or failure labels to someone

so early in life. And, often in times like these, judgement calls by officiating or sanctioing

bodies can alter one's life (lives). Much like the school-teacher who knows a particular

kid is not bright, or passing grades, yet proclaims him or her worthy of a h.s diploma,

realizing that the fate of the kid is at hand.

It's never an easy call.

Ultimately, age-limits, deadlines, enlistments, bills, yogurt labels and mattresses all

have restrictions - that's why we have lawyers.
Chili
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Chili 8/21/2009 8:02pm
8/21/2009 8:02pm
xnationalwrench wrote:
What's the age for a Candian Pro License? I would think if you could do the Candian Nationals and then some Pro-Am races in between. I...
What's the age for a Candian Pro License? I would think if you could do the Candian Nationals and then some Pro-Am races in between. I think if you did good up north the teams here in the states will hear more about you.
14
WhipMeister
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WhipMeister 8/21/2009 9:27pm
8/21/2009 9:27pm
Limits and boundaries aren't necessarily bad, despite the protests of those being limited and bounded.

The Shop

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fcr
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fcr 8/21/2009 10:05pm
8/21/2009 10:05pm
Set rules and wait and see how they are skirted or manipulated. It is always that way in anything. Let a kid and his parent do what they want at 16. If they screw the pooch who is to blame? The rule has good intentions but it will be manipulated when money is waved in front of a nose. So let the parents make the choice .
twizzler
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twizzler 8/21/2009 10:10pm
8/21/2009 10:10pm
I agree with Cyg and fcr. Once again someone taking away a personal "freedom'. The rule has good intentions, but...it will obviously create other shituations.
The Rock
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The Rock 8/21/2009 11:28pm
8/21/2009 11:28pm
Cygnus wrote:
Does anyone else think the reason for this new rule could be a nice new much cheaper insurance policy for DMG?
Please.....

If this was the case why is it 17 next year and not 18?
Sondy132001
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Sondy132001 8/21/2009 11:35pm
8/21/2009 11:35pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 1:42am
Rupert X wrote:
Good Call. here is a very interesting debate going on over at the VitalMX.com message board about the change in minimum age that will see AMA...
Good Call.

here is a very interesting debate going on over at the VitalMX.com message board about the change in minimum age that will see AMA Pro Supercross and Motocross licenses go to 17 years next year, then 18 in 2011. The debate now stems from the father of the super-fast Adam Cianciarulo (who may be the youngest person of this millennium to featured on the cover of Cycle News) telling AmateurMX.com’s Chris Hultner that they would likely head to Europe when he turns 16, rather than race amateur and pro-am here in the States for two more years.

To me, saying you will go race in Europe when you’re still only 12 is like saying you’ll play quarterback at the University of Florida when you’re 13. There’s a long ways to go between here and there, and a lot can change. Many (including Racer X) have compared Adam to a young Ricky Carmichael, and if anyone can go to Europe at that age and win, it may be him. The rule wasn’t meant to hold the truly exceptional back, but he appears to be the exception and not the rule, and in this case it might. If he goes to Europe and comes back here at 18 as a seasoned pro, everyone on the AMA circuit could have a monster on their hands. If he stays in Europe, Europe could have a monster on their hands. They may already have one in the sensationally fast and rapidly improving Ken Roczen—and he turned 15 in April!

If kids like Adam head for Europe, it’s an unintended consequence of a rule meant to improve the sport here in America by giving kids and families more time to get ready for the life of a professional athlete, as well as give teams a better idea of what kind of person they are hiring for large sums of money. I am sure every team out there has a horror story about somebody or somebody’s mom or dad that they do not know well when they signed, or otherwise they might not have. I know it’s a cliche, but for every James Stewart success story, there are dozens of Josh Sweat- and Ben Riddle-type stories out there where professional success did not happen and things went off the rails in a hurry. The NBA, the NFL, NASCAR and more all have minimum ages for good reason.
NBA, NFL, Nascar you have a longer career - MX... plain and simple you don't !! Lame rule period.


S
Sondy132001
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Sondy132001 8/21/2009 11:36pm
8/21/2009 11:36pm
Rupert X wrote:
Good Call. here is a very interesting debate going on over at the VitalMX.com message board about the change in minimum age that will see AMA...
Good Call.

here is a very interesting debate going on over at the VitalMX.com message board about the change in minimum age that will see AMA Pro Supercross and Motocross licenses go to 17 years next year, then 18 in 2011. The debate now stems from the father of the super-fast Adam Cianciarulo (who may be the youngest person of this millennium to featured on the cover of Cycle News) telling AmateurMX.com’s Chris Hultner that they would likely head to Europe when he turns 16, rather than race amateur and pro-am here in the States for two more years.

To me, saying you will go race in Europe when you’re still only 12 is like saying you’ll play quarterback at the University of Florida when you’re 13. There’s a long ways to go between here and there, and a lot can change. Many (including Racer X) have compared Adam to a young Ricky Carmichael, and if anyone can go to Europe at that age and win, it may be him. The rule wasn’t meant to hold the truly exceptional back, but he appears to be the exception and not the rule, and in this case it might. If he goes to Europe and comes back here at 18 as a seasoned pro, everyone on the AMA circuit could have a monster on their hands. If he stays in Europe, Europe could have a monster on their hands. They may already have one in the sensationally fast and rapidly improving Ken Roczen—and he turned 15 in April!

If kids like Adam head for Europe, it’s an unintended consequence of a rule meant to improve the sport here in America by giving kids and families more time to get ready for the life of a professional athlete, as well as give teams a better idea of what kind of person they are hiring for large sums of money. I am sure every team out there has a horror story about somebody or somebody’s mom or dad that they do not know well when they signed, or otherwise they might not have. I know it’s a cliche, but for every James Stewart success story, there are dozens of Josh Sweat- and Ben Riddle-type stories out there where professional success did not happen and things went off the rails in a hurry. The NBA, the NFL, NASCAR and more all have minimum ages for good reason.
It won't change school, the amateur Nationals you have to miss school. Sheesh come on look at the big picture here !!

S
Sondy132001
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Sondy132001 8/21/2009 11:55pm
8/21/2009 11:55pm
sesker15 wrote:
This all sounds like the Brandon jennings story? Heard of it? Thats the kid that went overseas to play pro basketball instead of going to college...
This all sounds like the Brandon jennings story? Heard of it? Thats the kid that went overseas to play pro basketball instead of going to college for a year then turing pro . Then he came to the NBA after a year overseas and was the 10th pick in the 2009 NBA draft after making millions over seas for one year! Sounds like a AC story in the making to me!
This Brandon Jennings story happen casue the NBA made a rule that you have to be out of HS a year before you can be eligble for the NBA draft.
my only problem with this, which could change trust me, but my son is 16 and 6'10 flat footed and 6'11 in his basketball shoes. I am banking on his height and basketball skills to get him a 4 year College education. If he makes the NBA that's great, icing on the cake but my main goal is college, but man if someone waves millions of dollars for him to go to Europe, that's where you have to think real hard. But there again he has a much longer career playing basketball then racing motocross, so 4 years of college won't set him back unless an injury occurs. 2 years can hurt a MX racer in my opinion.

I think I stated this before on here but kids who see a brick wall (age 18) in front of them are quicker to find another sport that has no walls, again MX takes it in the shorts and more pitfalls. You know there really is no AMA on the West Coast, so generally a lot of Pros would come to me and I would have to sign off their AMA paperwork to get a Pro license. You can ask around I talked plenty of kids out of turning pro too early. I denied kids also and also turned kids Pro. Just cause a kid is 16 and wants to turn Pro doesn't mean he's approved, people/officials need to make real decisions on this. And the AMA would yank kids who weren't ready for SX all the time in practices. So why can't we keep doing that and let the kids who are gifted (Shaun Kalos - 12 yrs/Ricky Johnson - 12yrs) race Pro.

S
Devil1nNj
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Devil1nNj 8/22/2009 1:11am
8/22/2009 1:11am
xnationalwrench wrote:
What's the age for a Candian Pro License? I would think if you could do the Candian Nationals and then some Pro-Am races in between. I...
What's the age for a Candian Pro License? I would think if you could do the Candian Nationals and then some Pro-Am races in between. I think if you did good up north the teams here in the states will hear more about you.
jeffro503 wrote:
There is a LOT more money involved when racing over seas compared to the canadian nationals. If they weren't into it for "just" the money...
There is a LOT more money involved when racing over seas compared to the canadian nationals. If they weren't into it for "just" the money , which most people are....then yeah.....Canada would be the place to go.
I agree, but what choice do they have? I don't know anything about this family, but, we all know the sacrifices and money that goes into breeding a champion in this day and age.
I bet there are ton of MX parents who walk a fine line financially, who mortgaged, borrowed, etc, with the idea that pay back would come when the kid hit 16, now they got 2 more years to factor in.

I'm not saying it's right by any means, but, it is how it is.
I think the rule sucks, and I'm of the opinion of some others on here who believe the rule change was more driven by the Dollar, than then the whole "family quality time".
It just seems like a nice frosting to put on a shitty tasting cake.

At the same time, I would be willing to bet that the people who love this sport are not the ones behind it, It's prob insurance, of the organization, and the promoters, and on, and on, and on .

*Disclaimer - This is my uninformed opinion based mostly on how everything else in life seems to happen when it comes to rules, laws, and so on. Money Money Money Money Silly
bd
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bd 8/22/2009 2:32am
8/22/2009 2:32am
I'm going to argue that AC will learn more in Europe (culture, history, food, language) than he would in HS. Going to Europe will help them.
DC
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DC 8/22/2009 3:30am
8/22/2009 3:30am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 1:42am
Thanks for the feedback here, it is useful and interesting to read.


Question: What dollars do I or any promoter have to make if two or three kids a year can't turn pro at 16? How many did it this year? That argument doesn't even make sense to me. We take entries for one amateur national, not all of them. What personal good does it do me to have a kid wait one or two years to start doing 12 pro nationals and all of the SX races each season? Loretta Lynn's will be full at 42 gates per class regardless. We capped the entries there long ago.


And you're right, Sondra, there is a big picture: It's the opinion of the major teams, the SX promoters, MX Sports, as well as AMA Pro Racing and the AMA itself, that we need to raise the minimum age to 18. It is also a growing legal concern that minor releases aren't exactly fool-proof to defend, as the state of Florida has found out.


Who knows? Maybe, just maybe, this will extend some careers because kids will enter the pro ranks as adults, be more mature and educated, maybe smarter with their careers, their earnings, and their lives in general. Maybe that's why other sports require kids to stay in school -- including basketball.


DC

MX Sports
alphado
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alphado 8/22/2009 4:44am
8/22/2009 4:44am Edited Date/Time 8/22/2009 4:44am
Make all the Amateur Nationals run in the summer. School is WAY more important than this or any other stupid sport.
rocrac
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rocrac 8/22/2009 4:59am
8/22/2009 4:59am
alphado wrote:
Make all the Amateur Nationals run in the summer. School is WAY more important than this or any other stupid sport.
I have been saying this for years. I don't feel so bad about a 16 year old missing his last couple years of school to turn pro but 8 year olds being pulled out so they can hit the "must do" races or they may lose their factory ride or chance at one is disturbing.
Rupert X
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Rupert X 8/22/2009 5:32am
8/22/2009 5:32am


If we could just combine the age and noise issues, it would be just as my dad

recommended when we were little tykes " CHILDREN SHOULD BE SEEN AND

NOT HEARD!"

Think that was a cry from Victorian times, before Cannondales, Cobras and

carbon hoof-prints.
RMZ819
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RMZ819 8/22/2009 6:08am
8/22/2009 6:08am
Moving the age to 18 to turn pro will turn out to be the best rule change in the history of this sport. I think taking speech classes is the next thing that should be mandatory. This sport needs riders that speak with the poise of young man like Joey Lugano and not like Ryan Dungey.

FlickitFlat 8/22/2009 7:50am
8/22/2009 7:50am
I think the sooner you let someone find out if they are going to make it or not the better. Most have a good idea in 2 seasons maybe 3 if they have what it takes in the pros. Say they turn pro at 16, try for 3 years and decide this is not the path for them. That would put them at 19, about the right age to go to college.
If that same kid waits until 18 to try and ends up having the same result. He would enter college at 21. How does that help?

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Cygnus
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Cygnus 8/22/2009 8:01am
8/22/2009 8:01am
FlickitFlat wrote:
I think the sooner you let someone find out if they are going to make it or not the better. Most have a good idea in...
I think the sooner you let someone find out if they are going to make it or not the better. Most have a good idea in 2 seasons maybe 3 if they have what it takes in the pros. Say they turn pro at 16, try for 3 years and decide this is not the path for them. That would put them at 19, about the right age to go to college.
If that same kid waits until 18 to try and ends up having the same result. He would enter college at 21. How does that help?

Great point.
sesker15
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sesker15 8/22/2009 9:31am
8/22/2009 9:31am
alphado wrote:
Make all the Amateur Nationals run in the summer. School is WAY more important than this or any other stupid sport.
rocrac wrote:
I have been saying this for years. I don't feel so bad about a 16 year old missing his last couple years of school to turn...
I have been saying this for years. I don't feel so bad about a 16 year old missing his last couple years of school to turn pro but 8 year olds being pulled out so they can hit the "must do" races or they may lose their factory ride or chance at one is disturbing.
I LIKE THIS IDEA!!!
sesker15
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sesker15 8/22/2009 9:36am
8/22/2009 9:36am
sesker15 wrote:
This all sounds like the Brandon jennings story? Heard of it? Thats the kid that went overseas to play pro basketball instead of going to college...
This all sounds like the Brandon jennings story? Heard of it? Thats the kid that went overseas to play pro basketball instead of going to college for a year then turing pro . Then he came to the NBA after a year overseas and was the 10th pick in the 2009 NBA draft after making millions over seas for one year! Sounds like a AC story in the making to me!
This Brandon Jennings story happen casue the NBA made a rule that you have to be out of HS a year before you can be eligble for the NBA draft.
Sondy132001 wrote:
my only problem with this, which could change trust me, but my son is 16 and 6'10 flat footed and 6'11 in his basketball shoes. I...
my only problem with this, which could change trust me, but my son is 16 and 6'10 flat footed and 6'11 in his basketball shoes. I am banking on his height and basketball skills to get him a 4 year College education. If he makes the NBA that's great, icing on the cake but my main goal is college, but man if someone waves millions of dollars for him to go to Europe, that's where you have to think real hard. But there again he has a much longer career playing basketball then racing motocross, so 4 years of college won't set him back unless an injury occurs. 2 years can hurt a MX racer in my opinion.

I think I stated this before on here but kids who see a brick wall (age 18) in front of them are quicker to find another sport that has no walls, again MX takes it in the shorts and more pitfalls. You know there really is no AMA on the West Coast, so generally a lot of Pros would come to me and I would have to sign off their AMA paperwork to get a Pro license. You can ask around I talked plenty of kids out of turning pro too early. I denied kids also and also turned kids Pro. Just cause a kid is 16 and wants to turn Pro doesn't mean he's approved, people/officials need to make real decisions on this. And the AMA would yank kids who weren't ready for SX all the time in practices. So why can't we keep doing that and let the kids who are gifted (Shaun Kalos - 12 yrs/Ricky Johnson - 12yrs) race Pro.

S
Your son is 6'10 WOW. I want to see him play. This is why my mom didnt let me race. I went the basketball route and got a full basketball scholorship and graduated from college! But now i am back into MX.lol
Sondy132001
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Sondy132001 8/22/2009 9:52am
8/22/2009 9:52am
DC wrote:
Thanks for the feedback here, it is useful and interesting to read. Question: What dollars do I or any promoter have to make if two or...
Thanks for the feedback here, it is useful and interesting to read.


Question: What dollars do I or any promoter have to make if two or three kids a year can't turn pro at 16? How many did it this year? That argument doesn't even make sense to me. We take entries for one amateur national, not all of them. What personal good does it do me to have a kid wait one or two years to start doing 12 pro nationals and all of the SX races each season? Loretta Lynn's will be full at 42 gates per class regardless. We capped the entries there long ago.


And you're right, Sondra, there is a big picture: It's the opinion of the major teams, the SX promoters, MX Sports, as well as AMA Pro Racing and the AMA itself, that we need to raise the minimum age to 18. It is also a growing legal concern that minor releases aren't exactly fool-proof to defend, as the state of Florida has found out.


Who knows? Maybe, just maybe, this will extend some careers because kids will enter the pro ranks as adults, be more mature and educated, maybe smarter with their careers, their earnings, and their lives in general. Maybe that's why other sports require kids to stay in school -- including basketball.


DC

MX Sports
"It is also a growing legal concern that minor releases aren't exactly fool-proof to defend, as the state of Florida has found out. "

So move the Pro age to 18, but we still have minor's racing who are under 18, well we made pros be 18 now let's make ALL racers turn 18 to ride/race a motorcycle...I see it coming... once you set a precident it's all down hill from there.

I gave my opinion just like everyone else, why do I get singled out here ?

S
eddie
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eddie 8/22/2009 9:58am
8/22/2009 9:58am
alphado wrote:
Make all the Amateur Nationals run in the summer. School is WAY more important than this or any other stupid sport.
rocrac wrote:
I have been saying this for years. I don't feel so bad about a 16 year old missing his last couple years of school to turn...
I have been saying this for years. I don't feel so bad about a 16 year old missing his last couple years of school to turn pro but 8 year olds being pulled out so they can hit the "must do" races or they may lose their factory ride or chance at one is disturbing.
sesker15 wrote:
I LIKE THIS IDEA!!!
agreed .
rockcrawlerdude 8/22/2009 11:05am
8/22/2009 11:05am
DC wrote:
Thanks for the feedback here, it is useful and interesting to read. Question: What dollars do I or any promoter have to make if two or...
Thanks for the feedback here, it is useful and interesting to read.


Question: What dollars do I or any promoter have to make if two or three kids a year can't turn pro at 16? How many did it this year? That argument doesn't even make sense to me. We take entries for one amateur national, not all of them. What personal good does it do me to have a kid wait one or two years to start doing 12 pro nationals and all of the SX races each season? Loretta Lynn's will be full at 42 gates per class regardless. We capped the entries there long ago.


And you're right, Sondra, there is a big picture: It's the opinion of the major teams, the SX promoters, MX Sports, as well as AMA Pro Racing and the AMA itself, that we need to raise the minimum age to 18. It is also a growing legal concern that minor releases aren't exactly fool-proof to defend, as the state of Florida has found out.


Who knows? Maybe, just maybe, this will extend some careers because kids will enter the pro ranks as adults, be more mature and educated, maybe smarter with their careers, their earnings, and their lives in general. Maybe that's why other sports require kids to stay in school -- including basketball.


DC

MX Sports
Sondy132001 wrote:
"It is also a growing legal concern that minor releases aren't exactly fool-proof to defend, as the state of Florida has found out. " So move...
"It is also a growing legal concern that minor releases aren't exactly fool-proof to defend, as the state of Florida has found out. "

So move the Pro age to 18, but we still have minor's racing who are under 18, well we made pros be 18 now let's make ALL racers turn 18 to ride/race a motorcycle...I see it coming... once you set a precident it's all down hill from there.

I gave my opinion just like everyone else, why do I get singled out here ?

S
pros moved to 18 mainly for the legality of contracts and money reasons??? but you have to remember this is for AMA races alot of track dont run by AMA rules so you could still have pros in non AMA sanctioned series / tracks...
Ashleymx
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Ashleymx 8/22/2009 11:51am
8/22/2009 11:51am
I dont get it really. Amatuers on the verge of Pro live a far from normal life anyway. Education is also highly overated. You can study after your career doesnt work out if thats the situation. Besides 10 years after you leave school your grades and what you learnt are pretty much uselss anyway. Life is the best education. The contacts, work ethic, experiences etc from Pro racing would be better than any regular schooling. We'll just miss out on seeing the fastest racers at pro level. Theyll still be racing somewhere though just not the main stage.
JB 19
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JB 19 8/22/2009 11:59am
8/22/2009 11:59am
I have a few ideas that may make me seem like I'm from another planet......How about parents stop micromanaging their kids lives. How about looking out for them and guiding them along, but letting them be kids.

Let the kids race and ride mx, but maybe not every weekend. If the kid wants to go to a school dance is that so bad? If he wants to go the movies and hang out with some girls on a Friday night is that so bad? Let the kid go to high school and experience that life and be a 16-17 year old and have friends. If he wants to go to a high school football game so what? If he wants (gasp) play football....is that so bad?

The kid can still race the big races, ride a couple times a week and have FUN at it. THEN when he is 18 and becomes an adult and the planning of life starts maybe he can buckle down and get dead serious and make mx his JOB.

Maybe some is these parents should take a page out the John Tomac parenting guide......and maybe they won't end up with a 19 year old who would rather burn ants with a magnifying glass than race a dirt bike.
JustMX
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JustMX 8/22/2009 8:04pm
8/22/2009 8:04pm
Geez,

AC's group certainly has an incredibly high expectation of his ability when turning pro at 16.

While he is certainly a gifted rider he is nothing like RC.

He certainly didn't dominate his races like you would think after reading the first post in this topic.

So what if he goes to Europe for a year or two? So what if he stays? Let him chase the huge purses they pay over there.

Is everybody else completely oblivious to the fact that any racers from europe that are fast can't wait to come over here and race?

Does anybody think AC will start winning over there (a pretty big stretch) and decide he can do better staying?

While I think high school diplomas are over rated I don't think it would be a bad thing for most of these kids to mature a bit before they get thrown in the deep end of the moto pool.
DC
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DC 8/22/2009 8:19pm
8/22/2009 8:19pm
Sondra, I only directed that at you out because you make a great point about your son being a possible college-level athlete; in our sport, it's the "college" part that's missing, and by that I mean school in general, educational supervision (if your son weren't showing up for class, he's not showing up on the radar of those potential schools) and the idea that there are gradual levels of advancement.....

Again, this is not my rule, it is the rule of a lot of entities. But I believe it is for the long-term betterment of our beloved sport. And the difference between minicycle or amateur racing and a professional supercross in a stadium is huge: One is a participatory activity; the other is a professional arena. That's where the difference between 17 and 18 becomes significant, and that's why other leagues set 18 as the minimum age, at the least.

DC
MX Sports
WhipMeister
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WhipMeister 8/22/2009 8:29pm
8/22/2009 8:29pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 1:43am
Ashleymx wrote:
I dont get it really. Amatuers on the verge of Pro live a far from normal life anyway. Education is also highly overated. You can study...
I dont get it really. Amatuers on the verge of Pro live a far from normal life anyway. Education is also highly overated. You can study after your career doesnt work out if thats the situation. Besides 10 years after you leave school your grades and what you learnt are pretty much uselss anyway. Life is the best education. The contacts, work ethic, experiences etc from Pro racing would be better than any regular schooling. We'll just miss out on seeing the fastest racers at pro level. Theyll still be racing somewhere though just not the main stage.
How old are you?


I've never in my life heard anyone over the age of 26 (at least who works for a living) claim that education was overrated.


"Yeah, man. Getting that degree in Marketing was just, like, a complete waste of time. Know wut I'm sayin?"

On the other hand I can trot out an endless parade of people who regret not staying in school.
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fcr 8/22/2009 8:32pm
8/22/2009 8:32pm Edited Date/Time 8/23/2009 9:28am
Hockey has a good system for college, Major Jr and Jr A. One you are pro the other you play at a high level and retain college eligibility, that doesn't really translate to MX as it is not a seasonal sport or a college sport. The point is it gives the kid a chance for an education. Mx should take heed about school especially when the kids are taken out so young. There are very few Pro's that make a good living from the sport if you look at it realistically, plus it is a short career. But I still feel that it is up to the parent and they have the dice in their hands.

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