KTM Sag - Weekly incompetence check

Richy
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Sooo... Another week another question that's probably super simple for the majority of folks here.

My 350 (an old '17 SXF) has the Race Tech recommended fork air pressure (spring conversion is out for repair) and a bladder kit, revalve and spring for about my weight (spring is for my weight, revalve was for my mate, the previous owner, who's slightly lighter and not so slightly faster, so I figured it'll be in the ballpark for a chunky novice).

With the spring on the brink of dislocating from the collar on the stand, so with almost no preload on it, the best I can get the race sag is 98mm, unladen it's about 33mm, and the spring is about a millimetre short of full length when measuring the spring itself.

High and Low speed compression and rebound very near stock 'standard' setting, linkage and swingarm bearings ok but probably due a regrease, though I can't feel noticeable striction and I've tried to compress the bike and let it settle and measured to reliable points and taken average measurements (although I never get much variance).

To me this seems like a no brainer the spring is too stiff, but it's a 54nm which the few guys I've talked to say is correct and I read similar in the RVanKamp thread.

Any thoughts on if something could be skewing the readings? Tyre pressures good, level ground, gear on, consciously letting the bike settle for stand, unladen and laden measurements.

Anything I may have missed is appreciated as always, Vital Brain Trust 👍
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MKMX
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10/26/2022 5:30am Edited Date/Time 10/26/2022 5:30am
I would pick up a softer spring and try that, I have found KTM’s can be temperamental at times with sag. The only non-spring related reasons I could think of would be be chain tension binding things up or perhaps dry linkage bearings.

Spring change is easy as you can do it without removing the shock - just split the linkage, lift and chock the back wheel, back the collar off, remove the bottom clip and drop the spring.
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wrc777
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Fantasy
10/26/2022 5:49am
How much do you weigh? Per the KTM manual that bike shipped with a 42nm spring. The manual says that is good for 75-85kg of rider and gear. 45nm spring for 85-95kg.

54nm is a Japanese bike rate which you can probably use on a ktm if you have a new linkage set up for it and a shock valved for it.
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Richy
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10/26/2022 6:11am Edited Date/Time 10/26/2022 7:34am
MKMX, thanks man, sorry I was on my phone between jobs and missed your reply, good call and I'll grab one this week, thanks.

WRC, 54 is what the Race Tech calculator came up with after converting from their kg/mm or whatever they use.

I'm at 250lb, 6'1, lift a little but also still a bit chunky haha, I saw the rate was a big jump from stock but given the above I didn't give it a second though, perhaps I should have 👍
Bruce372
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10/26/2022 6:30am
Is it a race tech spring?

The Shop

Bruce372
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10/26/2022 6:31am
I think 54 is good setup for 250lbs. Maybe even 57nM
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Richy
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10/26/2022 7:09am
Bruce372 wrote:
Is it a race tech spring?
It's a K-Tech spring, I'm in the UK and their stuff has generally been good and their customer service has been excellent in the past, I just didn't want to hassle them with this. I was hoping you'd chime in though Bruce, much appreciated, it lets me know the spring shouldn't miles away from correct and I liked your though process on 'rounding up' you advised in the other thread 👍

* Also apologies to Race Tech if they spot this, I know it's pretty cheeky using their calculator and then buying elsewhere, I'd gladly buy if I were in the US.
mx317
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10/26/2022 11:22am
Those sag numbers just seem off somehow. With your weight, it should be very close. Also, with that little preload you should be near 40mm static sag. Are you trying to measure it by yourself or with help? I’m right there with you on weight and I need 7mm preload to get 105mm rider sag.
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Richy
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10/26/2022 11:34am Edited Date/Time 10/26/2022 11:38am
Thanks for the reply my man, what you say is honestly what I expected, so good to hear that confirmed.

I actually wound the collar in a decent bit, straight off the bat after fitting the 54n spring, expecting what you describe yours to be like. It ended up at 84mm race sag as a result and I was super confused. I've ridden on it a couple of times, bike feels a little off kilter due to the sag number but it functions correctly as far as compression, rebound and no play or binding in any components.

I'm using the OE 'sag' molding mark on the rear fender to a marker pen'd point directly vertical from that mark to the hard-edged forging/casting line on the swingarm that the swingarm graphics usually go up to.

I've been getting the wife to measure, so I can make sure the bike settles properly and I can get my full weight on the pegs. She's pretty switched on, did her own piston last time, gapped the rings properly, wired her own racecar, not the usual half-asleep Mrs' measuring job. I've made sure it's measured right from point to point and we've done multiple measurements to make sure they're repeatable.

I've tried to check off any dumb mistakes in measuring / calculating / maintenance issues, however I'm at a bit of a loss now.
Sandusky26
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10/26/2022 12:45pm
Richy wrote:
Thanks for the reply my man, what you say is honestly what I expected, so good to hear that confirmed. I actually wound the collar in...
Thanks for the reply my man, what you say is honestly what I expected, so good to hear that confirmed.

I actually wound the collar in a decent bit, straight off the bat after fitting the 54n spring, expecting what you describe yours to be like. It ended up at 84mm race sag as a result and I was super confused. I've ridden on it a couple of times, bike feels a little off kilter due to the sag number but it functions correctly as far as compression, rebound and no play or binding in any components.

I'm using the OE 'sag' molding mark on the rear fender to a marker pen'd point directly vertical from that mark to the hard-edged forging/casting line on the swingarm that the swingarm graphics usually go up to.

I've been getting the wife to measure, so I can make sure the bike settles properly and I can get my full weight on the pegs. She's pretty switched on, did her own piston last time, gapped the rings properly, wired her own racecar, not the usual half-asleep Mrs' measuring job. I've made sure it's measured right from point to point and we've done multiple measurements to make sure they're repeatable.

I've tried to check off any dumb mistakes in measuring / calculating / maintenance issues, however I'm at a bit of a loss now.
I had to buy a sag scale because the dumbasses I ride with can’t read a tape, you’re wife is badass.
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Bruce372
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10/26/2022 5:22pm
Be careful boys, giving the old lady a measuring tape might cause disappointment 😀
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Bruce372
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10/26/2022 5:24pm
Richy, my concern is the spring maker. I bought a RT with higher rate and it required more preload than a softer oem spring to get sag.

Ebay has a lot of 54 and 57 oem springs from older bikes, 260mm
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Richy
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10/26/2022 10:48pm
I reckon you're right Bruce, it'll be disappointong as they are a pretty big and well respected company, but if the results just don't stack up then there's no arguing with it, and I guess all it takes is the wrong code / details stuck on a spring or something.

I even had a couple of genuine Deutsch brand wiring connectors, good quality stuff, recently where the pin numbers which are laser etched onto the connector were going clockwise instead of the correct anti-clockwise for that side of the connector, chased that issue for a little while as they had boots on them so wire colours weren't visible haha, shit happens doesn't it.

I'll grab whatever used one seems the most legit and at least then it'll be a definitive answer, good call and appreciate the advice 👍 May even just skip to a 57 from elsewhere as I do like what you said in the other thread.
FlexMx
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10/27/2022 6:46am Edited Date/Time 10/27/2022 6:51am
bruce372 is correct! I had the same thing happened to me a few years back , I owned a 2016 sxf and a local shop resprung the rear using a k-tech spring (63-260-51) while doing a orss kit ,The bike seemed harsh in the rear and the sag numbers were strange, I changed the spring to a wp 51-252 in the end and that sorted my issues.
I've always stuck to genuine wp springs ever since.
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mx317
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10/27/2022 7:28am
Another thing is the WP spring is measured in N/mm and Race Tech is Kg. Not a huge difference but a WP 54/260 is a 5.5 Kg/mm.
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Richy
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10/28/2022 3:21am
FlexMx, good to hear dude, if it's happened before it can happen again, will swap it out 👍

mx317, good call and appreciate the heads up, I did convert it at the time before ordering, luckily years of racecars with varying spring measurements in lbs, kg, nm, etc trying to catch me out has taught me that much at least haha 👍
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soggy
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10/29/2022 3:32pm
The point you are measuring on the swingarm seems off. You should measure to center of axle.
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MKMX
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10/29/2022 5:03pm Edited Date/Time 10/29/2022 5:08pm
Centre of the rear axle is the best place to measure sag from on the KTM’s - a motion pro sag scale is good for this as it centres itself.
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soggy
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10/29/2022 6:08pm
MKMX wrote:
Centre of the rear axle is the best place to measure sag from on the KTM’s - a motion pro sag scale is good for this...
Centre of the rear axle is the best place to measure sag from on the KTM’s - a motion pro sag scale is good for this as it centres itself.
Yep. He’s measuring in the wrong spot and it’s giving him a much lower number.
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Sandusky26
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10/29/2022 9:49pm
MKMX wrote:
Centre of the rear axle is the best place to measure sag from on the KTM’s - a motion pro sag scale is good for this...
Centre of the rear axle is the best place to measure sag from on the KTM’s - a motion pro sag scale is good for this as it centres itself.
soggy wrote:
Yep. He’s measuring in the wrong spot and it’s giving him a much lower number.
It really shouldn't matter as long as he is measuring the same way each time.
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MKMX
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10/29/2022 11:03pm
MKMX wrote:
Centre of the rear axle is the best place to measure sag from on the KTM’s - a motion pro sag scale is good for this...
Centre of the rear axle is the best place to measure sag from on the KTM’s - a motion pro sag scale is good for this as it centres itself.
soggy wrote:
Yep. He’s measuring in the wrong spot and it’s giving him a much lower number.
Sandusky26 wrote:
It really shouldn't matter as long as he is measuring the same way each time.
Where you measure on the swingarm is important, give it a go next time you’re checking sag and you’ll be surprised just how little you have to move from the rear axle for it to make a couple mm difference.
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Richy
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10/30/2022 2:35am Edited Date/Time 10/30/2022 2:39am
I appreciate the heads up folks, you're right and I appreciate the swing arm has to move in an arc so the measuring location can and will skew if you're too far forward or rearward, however re-measuring to the axle this morning gives a result which is practically the same unfortunately. I expect it would make a bigger difference if the spring wasn't so stiff, now I'm actually thinking about it, so that kind of confirms how damn stiff it is in itself.

I'll grab another spring and get it in asap.
Sandusky26
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10/30/2022 3:16am Edited Date/Time 10/30/2022 3:19am
soggy wrote:
Yep. He’s measuring in the wrong spot and it’s giving him a much lower number.
Sandusky26 wrote:
It really shouldn't matter as long as he is measuring the same way each time.
MKMX wrote:
Where you measure on the swingarm is important, give it a go next time you’re checking sag and you’ll be surprised just how little you have...
Where you measure on the swingarm is important, give it a go next time you’re checking sag and you’ll be surprised just how little you have to move from the rear axle for it to make a couple mm difference.
I don't understand. We are measuring how much the shock sags. It's geometry, you could ask 20 suspension tuners and get 20 different methods.
MKMX
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10/30/2022 4:31am
Sandusky26 wrote:
It really shouldn't matter as long as he is measuring the same way each time.
MKMX wrote:
Where you measure on the swingarm is important, give it a go next time you’re checking sag and you’ll be surprised just how little you have...
Where you measure on the swingarm is important, give it a go next time you’re checking sag and you’ll be surprised just how little you have to move from the rear axle for it to make a couple mm difference.
Sandusky26 wrote:
I don't understand. We are measuring how much the shock sags. It's geometry, you could ask 20 suspension tuners and get 20 different methods.
I don’t really know how to explain it in technical terms… but try check your sag by measuring at the end of the chain slider then measure again at the axle without changing anything in between… they’ll be different measurements.
wrc777
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10/30/2022 5:14am
Sandusky26 wrote:
I don't understand. We are measuring how much the shock sags. It's geometry, you could ask 20 suspension tuners and get 20 different methods.
The further back you go on the arm the more it travels for a given shock stroke. I am not sure exactly where OP is checking. If he is checking on the swing arm right above the axle center it should still be correct. If he is measuring in front of the axle it will not be correct. The further from axle center the more error.
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Richy
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10/31/2022 2:36pm
Just to cap this off, I switched to another "54N" spring, even off the bike I could tell there was a difference, so that was a relief but also disappointing, but shit happens I guess.

Fresh one fitted, 2.5 turns of the collar and 105 race sag, 34mm static sag, straight off the bat.

That is measuring correctly per the book, however I tried alternate locations (the theory checks out, wasn't doubting anyone, just wanted to see how significant it was) and if you're in the rough area it's cool, but angle seems to change it significantly and going too far from the axle as said by the wise homies here.

Interestingly, the Pro Circuit sag how-to thing says to make sure you measure to a fixed point and as vertically as possible, but from axle centre to fender line is quite an angle on the KTM.

Always tough when you have a couple of issues compounding each other. Appreciate everyone's help on this, have a good week folks and thanks for giving me a hope at finding some corner speed one day 🤣
MKMX
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10/31/2022 5:11pm
Richy wrote:
Just to cap this off, I switched to another "54N" spring, even off the bike I could tell there was a difference, so that was a...
Just to cap this off, I switched to another "54N" spring, even off the bike I could tell there was a difference, so that was a relief but also disappointing, but shit happens I guess.

Fresh one fitted, 2.5 turns of the collar and 105 race sag, 34mm static sag, straight off the bat.

That is measuring correctly per the book, however I tried alternate locations (the theory checks out, wasn't doubting anyone, just wanted to see how significant it was) and if you're in the rough area it's cool, but angle seems to change it significantly and going too far from the axle as said by the wise homies here.

Interestingly, the Pro Circuit sag how-to thing says to make sure you measure to a fixed point and as vertically as possible, but from axle centre to fender line is quite an angle on the KTM.

Always tough when you have a couple of issues compounding each other. Appreciate everyone's help on this, have a good week folks and thanks for giving me a hope at finding some corner speed one day 🤣
Nice work mate! Now grip it and rip it!

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