The final word on SFF spring conversions? Please advise (KTM/GG/HUS)

lumpy790
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lumpy790 10/12/2022 7:45am
10/12/2022 7:45am
Handling wise there is a huge difference between the 2 stroke and the 4 stroke.

With 2 strokes you turn with the rear end by clutching and sliding. 4 strokes the front end bites in and you turn with the front. Due to this 4 strokes run a larger tire size. 2 very different worlds.
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R VanKamp77
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R VanKamp77 10/12/2022 8:17am
10/12/2022 8:17am
lumpy790 wrote:
Handling wise there is a huge difference between the 2 stroke and the 4 stroke. With 2 strokes you turn with the rear end by clutching...
Handling wise there is a huge difference between the 2 stroke and the 4 stroke.

With 2 strokes you turn with the rear end by clutching and sliding. 4 strokes the front end bites in and you turn with the front. Due to this 4 strokes run a larger tire size. 2 very different worlds.
I would agree fully. I want my 2T to bite down like a 4 stroke lol. Tall order I guess. I don’t like the rear stepping out at all.

I did notice on the Yamaha that wherever my shoulders and head were pointed, that’s where the bike was going. Unless I deliberately tried to keep spinning, it’s like the rear of the bike went we’re my eyes went.
Gravel
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Gravel 10/12/2022 8:25am
10/12/2022 8:25am
Gravel wrote:
Have you checked for a bent or badly machined triple clamp or axle? Clamps slightly misaligned in rotation? This still sounds like an alignment issue..
R VanKamp77 wrote:
If something like that is afoot I truly don’t have any way of telling. I can get the forks to sit perfectly and the axle to...
If something like that is afoot I truly don’t have any way of telling. I can get the forks to sit perfectly and the axle to slide back and forth with zero effort. I’m not saying you’re wrong but I am saying if you’re right, It is so minute I’ll never know.
I’m stumped. Usually a four stroke loads the suspension in a way that makes forks more supple feeling and it’s obvious that you aren’t feeling that compliance. Maybe the latest revalve you have on the way will work better? That and some break in time might work? Otherwise I suggest lowering your standards...


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R VanKamp77
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R VanKamp77 10/12/2022 8:47am
10/12/2022 8:47am
Gravel wrote:
Have you checked for a bent or badly machined triple clamp or axle? Clamps slightly misaligned in rotation? This still sounds like an alignment issue..
R VanKamp77 wrote:
If something like that is afoot I truly don’t have any way of telling. I can get the forks to sit perfectly and the axle to...
If something like that is afoot I truly don’t have any way of telling. I can get the forks to sit perfectly and the axle to slide back and forth with zero effort. I’m not saying you’re wrong but I am saying if you’re right, It is so minute I’ll never know.
Gravel wrote:
I’m stumped. Usually a four stroke loads the suspension in a way that makes forks more supple feeling and it’s obvious that you aren’t feeling that...
I’m stumped. Usually a four stroke loads the suspension in a way that makes forks more supple feeling and it’s obvious that you aren’t feeling that compliance. Maybe the latest revalve you have on the way will work better? That and some break in time might work? Otherwise I suggest lowering your standards...


Yeah, thats what i was thinking as well lol. It's hard to ride a YZ that feels like it cant bother me and then ride this bike but I'm confident I'm going to like it when I get back on it. Mostly, i was shocked at how different the two suspensions can feel. It could also be the .46 springs, they're probably a little light for me. That makes everything feel plush lol, but i didn't have trouble bottoming.

The Shop

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swordfish
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swordfish 10/12/2022 9:36am
10/12/2022 9:36am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2022 9:38am
R VanKamp77 wrote:
If something like that is afoot I truly don’t have any way of telling. I can get the forks to sit perfectly and the axle to...
If something like that is afoot I truly don’t have any way of telling. I can get the forks to sit perfectly and the axle to slide back and forth with zero effort. I’m not saying you’re wrong but I am saying if you’re right, It is so minute I’ll never know.
Gravel wrote:
I’m stumped. Usually a four stroke loads the suspension in a way that makes forks more supple feeling and it’s obvious that you aren’t feeling that...
I’m stumped. Usually a four stroke loads the suspension in a way that makes forks more supple feeling and it’s obvious that you aren’t feeling that compliance. Maybe the latest revalve you have on the way will work better? That and some break in time might work? Otherwise I suggest lowering your standards...


R VanKamp77 wrote:
Yeah, thats what i was thinking as well lol. It's hard to ride a YZ that feels like it [i]cant [/i] bother me and then ride...
Yeah, thats what i was thinking as well lol. It's hard to ride a YZ that feels like it cant bother me and then ride this bike but I'm confident I'm going to like it when I get back on it. Mostly, i was shocked at how different the two suspensions can feel. It could also be the .46 springs, they're probably a little light for me. That makes everything feel plush lol, but i didn't have trouble bottoming.
I’m staring to think you don’t know what you want and your a head case. I don’t mean that as a dig, more as perhaps you are overthinking and analyzing things. Your mindfucking yourself. I’ll never get my TX300 suspension to feel as good and confident as my YZ250FX. They are different beasts. I doubt I’d ever get my XACT to feel as good as my spring carts for what I ride. Different beasts again.
Light springs for me don’t feel plush, they feel harsh as shit because they blow through the initial stroke.
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Bruce372
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Bruce372 10/12/2022 9:41am
10/12/2022 9:41am
Gravel wrote:
Have you checked for a bent or badly machined triple clamp or axle? Clamps slightly misaligned in rotation? This still sounds like an alignment issue..
R VanKamp77 wrote:
If something like that is afoot I truly don’t have any way of telling. I can get the forks to sit perfectly and the axle to...
If something like that is afoot I truly don’t have any way of telling. I can get the forks to sit perfectly and the axle to slide back and forth with zero effort. I’m not saying you’re wrong but I am saying if you’re right, It is so minute I’ll never know.
Gravel wrote:
I’m stumped. Usually a four stroke loads the suspension in a way that makes forks more supple feeling and it’s obvious that you aren’t feeling that...
I’m stumped. Usually a four stroke loads the suspension in a way that makes forks more supple feeling and it’s obvious that you aren’t feeling that compliance. Maybe the latest revalve you have on the way will work better? That and some break in time might work? Otherwise I suggest lowering your standards...


The 4 stroke is loading the suspension. The torque is causing a poorly setup shock to squat. As consequence of the chassis being off, the front end is at the wrong angle and will never work.

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soggy
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soggy 10/12/2022 9:49am
10/12/2022 9:49am
Gravel wrote:
Have you checked for a bent or badly machined triple clamp or axle? Clamps slightly misaligned in rotation? This still sounds like an alignment issue..
His problem is mostly with the shock set up. It’s not the forks. A bad shock setting on these bikes makes the forks feel terrible.
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R VanKamp77
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R VanKamp77 10/12/2022 9:57am
10/12/2022 9:57am
We're about to all find out for sure lol. I have learned a ton over the last couple of weeks talking with everyone though so that's a big win.
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Rotaholic
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Rotaholic 10/12/2022 11:30am
10/12/2022 11:30am
If my instructions weren't clear before, this photo should help. You should only have to do it once and mark axel or fork lug as it should never change unless you have a big crash. I do realise motion Pro does a tool for this, but you can't beat free.


Rotaholic
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Rotaholic 10/12/2022 11:37am
10/12/2022 11:37am
Rotaholic wrote:
I would recheck your work when installing the forks, how are you setting the front axel? Best way to do it is have a friend help...
I would recheck your work when installing the forks, how are you setting the front axel? Best way to do it is have a friend help you and remove the handle bars and undo the fork caps then press the wheel all the way up till the forks bottom and set it there.
Check the triple clamp pinch bolts, use a torque wrench if you can. Where is the rear wheel in the swing arm? The further back the more weight on the forks, this can be a good thing. A soft shock can give you a horrible harsh fork.
Never under estimate how much engine braking can upset a chassis and how your forks work.
soggy wrote:
I have never heard of anyone doing it that way. Seems a bit extreme and possible messy. I’m sure it works though.
MX558 wrote:
Seems like over kill to me also . The way I set the fork height for alignment is with the front wheel off and make sure...
Seems like over kill to me also . The way I set the fork height for alignment is with the front wheel off and make sure the axle slides through with very little friction on both lugs . It's way we did it in road racing. Now if you change fork height without taking the wheel off it could mess things up. Depending on the bike you'd be surprised at the difference in fork heights
Checking for binding in the bushes not fork height, for fork height a metal ruler or verniers is fine with the wheel on.
We are trying to see if the forks are doing this in the end part of the stroke / \ or \ / they need to look like this at full bottom out | |
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Sandusky26
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Sandusky26 10/12/2022 1:18pm
10/12/2022 1:18pm
Rotaholic wrote:
If my instructions weren't clear before, this photo should help. You should only have to do it once and mark axel or fork lug as it...
If my instructions weren't clear before, this photo should help. You should only have to do it once and mark axel or fork lug as it should never change unless you have a big crash. I do realise motion Pro does a tool for this, but you can't beat free.


If the OP had these Suzuki forks this thread wouldn’t exist.
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R VanKamp77
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R VanKamp77 10/12/2022 2:07pm
10/12/2022 2:07pm
Rotaholic wrote:
If my instructions weren't clear before, this photo should help. You should only have to do it once and mark axel or fork lug as it...
If my instructions weren't clear before, this photo should help. You should only have to do it once and mark axel or fork lug as it should never change unless you have a big crash. I do realise motion Pro does a tool for this, but you can't beat free.


Sandusky26 wrote:
If the OP had these Suzuki forks this thread wouldn’t exist.
I’ve tried to find one for 2 weeks and I recently gave up. Best handling bike ever made with SSS forks. That’s all a man can need.

If you got a line on cheap RM-Z250’s it’s time to message me the right phone number.
Gravel
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Gravel 10/12/2022 3:25pm
10/12/2022 3:25pm Edited Date/Time 10/12/2022 3:31pm
R VanKamp77 wrote:
If something like that is afoot I truly don’t have any way of telling. I can get the forks to sit perfectly and the axle to...
If something like that is afoot I truly don’t have any way of telling. I can get the forks to sit perfectly and the axle to slide back and forth with zero effort. I’m not saying you’re wrong but I am saying if you’re right, It is so minute I’ll never know.
Gravel wrote:
I’m stumped. Usually a four stroke loads the suspension in a way that makes forks more supple feeling and it’s obvious that you aren’t feeling that...
I’m stumped. Usually a four stroke loads the suspension in a way that makes forks more supple feeling and it’s obvious that you aren’t feeling that compliance. Maybe the latest revalve you have on the way will work better? That and some break in time might work? Otherwise I suggest lowering your standards...


R VanKamp77 wrote:
Yeah, thats what i was thinking as well lol. It's hard to ride a YZ that feels like it [i]cant [/i] bother me and then ride...
Yeah, thats what i was thinking as well lol. It's hard to ride a YZ that feels like it cant bother me and then ride this bike but I'm confident I'm going to like it when I get back on it. Mostly, i was shocked at how different the two suspensions can feel. It could also be the .46 springs, they're probably a little light for me. That makes everything feel plush lol, but i didn't have trouble bottoming.
.46 springs? How much do you weigh? I’m 205 + gear and I’m running .52s and a 5.4 on a 450xcf chassis. So slightly heavier bike, but fairly close. And mine works great.

Soft springs don’t make a plush ride..

Edit: your first post says you’re 200 and 6’ 3”, on .46s and a 5.0

If that’s correct, we’re all wasting time on this. You need around .50s and a 5.2 before any other work..

I’m out
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R VanKamp77
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R VanKamp77 10/12/2022 4:50pm
10/12/2022 4:50pm
Gravel wrote:
I’m stumped. Usually a four stroke loads the suspension in a way that makes forks more supple feeling and it’s obvious that you aren’t feeling that...
I’m stumped. Usually a four stroke loads the suspension in a way that makes forks more supple feeling and it’s obvious that you aren’t feeling that compliance. Maybe the latest revalve you have on the way will work better? That and some break in time might work? Otherwise I suggest lowering your standards...


R VanKamp77 wrote:
Yeah, thats what i was thinking as well lol. It's hard to ride a YZ that feels like it [i]cant [/i] bother me and then ride...
Yeah, thats what i was thinking as well lol. It's hard to ride a YZ that feels like it cant bother me and then ride this bike but I'm confident I'm going to like it when I get back on it. Mostly, i was shocked at how different the two suspensions can feel. It could also be the .46 springs, they're probably a little light for me. That makes everything feel plush lol, but i didn't have trouble bottoming.
Gravel wrote:
.46 springs? How much do you weigh? I’m 205 + gear and I’m running .52s and a 5.4 on a 450xcf chassis. So slightly heavier bike...
.46 springs? How much do you weigh? I’m 205 + gear and I’m running .52s and a 5.4 on a 450xcf chassis. So slightly heavier bike, but fairly close. And mine works great.

Soft springs don’t make a plush ride..

Edit: your first post says you’re 200 and 6’ 3”, on .46s and a 5.0

If that’s correct, we’re all wasting time on this. You need around .50s and a 5.2 before any other work..

I’m out
You’re not reading correctly… we’re just comparing and contrasting the difference of the Yamaha and the gasgas.

The Yamaha was specd by FC. It probably could go stiffer one rate but it doesn’t bottom.

The gagsas is being built by ProTune and it has .50 in each side as well as his shock spec.
soggy
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soggy 10/12/2022 5:01pm
10/12/2022 5:01pm
R VanKamp77 wrote:
Yeah, thats what i was thinking as well lol. It's hard to ride a YZ that feels like it [i]cant [/i] bother me and then ride...
Yeah, thats what i was thinking as well lol. It's hard to ride a YZ that feels like it cant bother me and then ride this bike but I'm confident I'm going to like it when I get back on it. Mostly, i was shocked at how different the two suspensions can feel. It could also be the .46 springs, they're probably a little light for me. That makes everything feel plush lol, but i didn't have trouble bottoming.
Gravel wrote:
.46 springs? How much do you weigh? I’m 205 + gear and I’m running .52s and a 5.4 on a 450xcf chassis. So slightly heavier bike...
.46 springs? How much do you weigh? I’m 205 + gear and I’m running .52s and a 5.4 on a 450xcf chassis. So slightly heavier bike, but fairly close. And mine works great.

Soft springs don’t make a plush ride..

Edit: your first post says you’re 200 and 6’ 3”, on .46s and a 5.0

If that’s correct, we’re all wasting time on this. You need around .50s and a 5.2 before any other work..

I’m out
R VanKamp77 wrote:
You’re not reading correctly… we’re just comparing and contrasting the difference of the Yamaha and the gasgas. The Yamaha was specd by FC. It probably could...
You’re not reading correctly… we’re just comparing and contrasting the difference of the Yamaha and the gasgas.

The Yamaha was specd by FC. It probably could go stiffer one rate but it doesn’t bottom.

The gagsas is being built by ProTune and it has .50 in each side as well as his shock spec.
Your spring rate should not be off by that much regardless of the bike or company setting it up.
TJMX947
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TJMX947 10/14/2022 5:55am
10/14/2022 5:55am
I talked to Art of War suspension yesterday, he mentioned that a Show conversion kit will be coming out really soon. He mentioned that it will be cheaper because the stock lugs can be used. Anybody heard about this?
R VanKamp77
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R VanKamp77 10/14/2022 6:06am
10/14/2022 6:06am Edited Date/Time 10/14/2022 6:06am
TJMX947 wrote:
I talked to Art of War suspension yesterday, he mentioned that a Show conversion kit will be coming out really soon. He mentioned that it will...
I talked to Art of War suspension yesterday, he mentioned that a Show conversion kit will be coming out really soon. He mentioned that it will be cheaper because the stock lugs can be used. Anybody heard about this?
That'll be nice; im sure the lugs are a few hundred dollars.

i was talking with a friend of mine who had the same bike I do (MC350) but with cone valves and said his revalved CRF450r feels better than that bike ever did.. so I hope it works well!
adams189
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adams189 10/14/2022 6:36am
10/14/2022 6:36am Edited Date/Time 10/14/2022 6:37am
TJMX947 wrote:
I talked to Art of War suspension yesterday, he mentioned that a Show conversion kit will be coming out really soon. He mentioned that it will...
I talked to Art of War suspension yesterday, he mentioned that a Show conversion kit will be coming out really soon. He mentioned that it will be cheaper because the stock lugs can be used. Anybody heard about this?
Why not just go with the WP 6500 conversion kit which is a drop in spring conversion? I love mine. REP revalved and sprung for my weight and it’s fantastic.

Pit Row

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mx317
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mx317 10/14/2022 6:39am
10/14/2022 6:39am
TJMX947 wrote:
I talked to Art of War suspension yesterday, he mentioned that a Show conversion kit will be coming out really soon. He mentioned that it will...
I talked to Art of War suspension yesterday, he mentioned that a Show conversion kit will be coming out really soon. He mentioned that it will be cheaper because the stock lugs can be used. Anybody heard about this?
On the 21 and up forks you can use the stock lugs with a kit from Ride Engineering using KYB internals.
R VanKamp77
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R VanKamp77 10/14/2022 7:37am
10/14/2022 7:37am
TJMX947 wrote:
I talked to Art of War suspension yesterday, he mentioned that a Show conversion kit will be coming out really soon. He mentioned that it will...
I talked to Art of War suspension yesterday, he mentioned that a Show conversion kit will be coming out really soon. He mentioned that it will be cheaper because the stock lugs can be used. Anybody heard about this?
mx317 wrote:
On the 21 and up forks you can use the stock lugs with a kit from Ride Engineering using KYB internals.
https://ride-engineering.com/New-KYB-Spring-Conversion-Kit-for-WP-XACT-…

The description slowly reveals additional costs lol. I bet if you're close with your tuner you could do it for cheaper.
NSP139
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NSP139 10/14/2022 10:12am
10/14/2022 10:12am
TJMX947 wrote:
I talked to Art of War suspension yesterday, he mentioned that a Show conversion kit will be coming out really soon. He mentioned that it will...
I talked to Art of War suspension yesterday, he mentioned that a Show conversion kit will be coming out really soon. He mentioned that it will be cheaper because the stock lugs can be used. Anybody heard about this?
mx317 wrote:
On the 21 and up forks you can use the stock lugs with a kit from Ride Engineering using KYB internals.
You have to replace the lugs to get the rebound adjustment on the bottom for the KYB conversion
mx317
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mx317 10/14/2022 10:29am
10/14/2022 10:29am Edited Date/Time 10/14/2022 10:47am
NSP139 wrote:
You have to replace the lugs to get the rebound adjustment on the bottom for the KYB conversion
Not on the 21 and up forks. You have to modify it but not replace it.
mx317
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mx317 10/14/2022 10:34am
10/14/2022 10:34am

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kopfjaeger
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kopfjaeger 10/15/2022 1:09am
10/15/2022 1:09am
Ok, I realized today that something has not been addressed here. How much chain slack you running? These new bikes need about 10mm more than stated. Check out keefer, or google 2023 ktm chain adjustment. So spring it right, adjust the chain to 68-75 mm slack, set the clickers to stock and go. I agree with others, the bike is unbalanced, and nothing will fix it until you get the springs balanced out and the chassis is working freely. Kid’s 23 450 is pretty sweet on stock suspenders for me an old A guy and him a local pro.
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Sandusky26
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Sandusky26 10/15/2022 6:09am
10/15/2022 6:09am
It's never going to handle right without this shock.

I already valved it for you.
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R VanKamp77
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R VanKamp77 10/15/2022 3:35pm
10/15/2022 3:35pm
I got it all back from ProTune. Corey there does such a good job and does me so well I can’t recommend him enough. Had a lot going on this weekend but here’s what we got going on this evening. Polished and discolored stock header along with a 1.25” chop on a spare husky exhaust I had. Sounds incredible, looks awesome. Forks going together tonight along with a full greasing of every moving part and a toothbrush level deep cleaning. I plan on filling the pro taper evos with some 30 durometer silicon I got as well. It’s pourable. I’ll be taking a look at the chain thing as well but I typically adjust it on the loose side because last time I had the shock off I adjusted it to the spec and noticed it being too tense about 70% of the way up the travel. KTM owners try it. Pull your shock off and cycle the swingarm. It binds. Anyways, kind of an update and another thank you to everyone involved in helping me.

Sandusky whenever you find a buy two deal on RMZ’s message me. I stay ready for one as long as the price is right. 😂😂


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MKMX
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MKMX 10/15/2022 3:42pm
10/15/2022 3:42pm Edited Date/Time 10/15/2022 3:45pm
For chain tension, use this method, it’s more accurate than the book and far less likely to cause any binding.

Note; when the centre of your front sprocket, the centre of the swingarm pivot and the centre of the rear axle are all in line, this is the tightest spot on your chain tension.

https://youtu.be/wJzA_RNW-Ck
bvm111
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bvm111 10/15/2022 4:38pm
10/15/2022 4:38pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Set your sag to 105mm, then measure spring length. 7mm preload is perfect, so a 260 spring will measure 253mm. If you are getting to 9...
Set your sag to 105mm, then measure spring length. 7mm preload is perfect, so a 260 spring will measure 253mm. If you are getting to 9 or 10mm preload, you need a bigger spring.

The bladder conversion won't fix any of your issues, it's useful to make servicing easier.

If you are able to work a shock yourself, i would try adding 2 face shims to compression and 1 face shim on the rebound.
R VanKamp77 wrote:
This is really what I was wanting to know. I’m comfortable doing suspension but I don’t have the vac tools and stuff. Can I do a...
This is really what I was wanting to know. I’m comfortable doing suspension but I don’t have the vac tools and stuff. Can I do a bladder conversion and be able to service my own shock or does it still need a special bleeding system? If I can service it myself then I’ll get a bladder and be okay to make some changes.

I’ll see if I can get some details later on the spring and the sag. The sag is set fine without much preload at all but I don’t have the details at the moment. It is 105mm also.
Bruce372 wrote:
Servicing the shock is a pain first time, regardless of reservoir or bladder. Most often, I remove the reservoir and drill and tap the charging bolt...
Servicing the shock is a pain first time, regardless of reservoir or bladder. Most often, I remove the reservoir and drill and tap the charging bolt hole to take a Schrader. You can then reassemble, and fill the shock via the bleed bolt at the top using a DRC filling cup and gently holding the shock upright in a vice. You can get air bubbles out this way.

I once damaged the reservoir when doing this (I think they changed to green permanent sleeve retainer loctite? Who knows the new ones are on tight). In this case, I just fitted the bladder. I can't tell a performance difference with the bladder, but I can tell a massive improvement with the forks when adding compression damping and big spring to the shock.

Just like everyone said on page one of this 4 page thread. 😀
Bruce,

what size is the bleed bolt, my 5mm seems a touch loose and a 5.5 is too big… any help is appreciated!
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Bruce372 10/15/2022 4:48pm
10/15/2022 4:48pm
R VanKamp77 wrote:
This is really what I was wanting to know. I’m comfortable doing suspension but I don’t have the vac tools and stuff. Can I do a...
This is really what I was wanting to know. I’m comfortable doing suspension but I don’t have the vac tools and stuff. Can I do a bladder conversion and be able to service my own shock or does it still need a special bleeding system? If I can service it myself then I’ll get a bladder and be okay to make some changes.

I’ll see if I can get some details later on the spring and the sag. The sag is set fine without much preload at all but I don’t have the details at the moment. It is 105mm also.
Bruce372 wrote:
Servicing the shock is a pain first time, regardless of reservoir or bladder. Most often, I remove the reservoir and drill and tap the charging bolt...
Servicing the shock is a pain first time, regardless of reservoir or bladder. Most often, I remove the reservoir and drill and tap the charging bolt hole to take a Schrader. You can then reassemble, and fill the shock via the bleed bolt at the top using a DRC filling cup and gently holding the shock upright in a vice. You can get air bubbles out this way.

I once damaged the reservoir when doing this (I think they changed to green permanent sleeve retainer loctite? Who knows the new ones are on tight). In this case, I just fitted the bladder. I can't tell a performance difference with the bladder, but I can tell a massive improvement with the forks when adding compression damping and big spring to the shock.

Just like everyone said on page one of this 4 page thread. 😀
bvm111 wrote:
Bruce,

what size is the bleed bolt, my 5mm seems a touch loose and a 5.5 is too big… any help is appreciated!
I think you are right, its 5mm. I remember them being loose after a couple of tries... I bought a few spare for this reason. Maybe use a fresh Allen and not the angled ones.

Sorry I can't help more
2
lumpy790
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lumpy790 10/17/2022 1:47pm
10/17/2022 1:47pm
OK guys I bought a new to me Husky this weekend and it has a spring kit on one side so I am getting a crash course on it.

Anyone know what brand it may be?

Shock has a 54 and I need a 48 and fork has a .98k spring and I think its set up for a heavier rider.



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