The final word on SFF spring conversions? Please advise (KTM/GG/HUS)

kopfjaeger
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10/6/2022 1:17pm Edited Date/Time 10/6/2022 1:19pm
Sat on it, choppered. “WTF?” “Oh yeah, i softened LSC a bit for those rocks we were riding.” Clicked back in, gtg. Yeah it shocked me too. 🤷🏻‍♂️
mx317
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10/6/2022 2:16pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Yeah, I would go higher on rate. I think oem make 51 and 54, I think there are good aftermarket 52 or 53, I can't remember...
Yeah, I would go higher on rate. I think oem make 51 and 54, I think there are good aftermarket 52 or 53, I can't remember... it goes in bigger rate jumps than Japanese springs
He has a 5.0 kg/mm OEM 51 n/mm is a 5.2 kg/mm. Race Tech measures in kg while OEM is in N.
Bruce372
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10/6/2022 3:06pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Yeah, I would go higher on rate. I think oem make 51 and 54, I think there are good aftermarket 52 or 53, I can't remember...
Yeah, I would go higher on rate. I think oem make 51 and 54, I think there are good aftermarket 52 or 53, I can't remember... it goes in bigger rate jumps than Japanese springs
mx317 wrote:
He has a 5.0 kg/mm OEM 51 n/mm is a 5.2 kg/mm. Race Tech measures in kg while OEM is in N.
That's right, it's very confusing.
2
Richy
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10/7/2022 12:19am
Not really aimed at you op, just two things that stick out here. First, Bruce's info is excellent.

Second, assuming it's sprung and valved pretty close and have a base setting (written down, so you can revert to it if needed), try and only make one change at a time, and record it so you know where you're at.

Of course you need to try different things and will continually adjust / refine, but it's a cardinal car setup rule which seems more critical with bikes which are more sensitive to changing the balance and it affects the work load of the front or rear.

However tempting it is to have a little tweak of this and a little turn of that, if you make multiple changes, you can't be sure precisely what helped or hindered and to what degree or how much the changes worked together or against each other

Also, trust what you feel... Sometimes a change will not have the affect you expected, or it'll feel better going the opposite way than the way you initially thought you should go.
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The Shop

adams189
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10/7/2022 3:23pm Edited Date/Time 10/7/2022 3:24pm
I am really struggling to find comfort with my GG and I'm ready to bite the bullet and fix the forks rather than sell it as...
I am really struggling to find comfort with my GG and I'm ready to bite the bullet and fix the forks rather than sell it as it is overall more expensive to sell it and get something else (losses) than it is to spend some money to fix the front end.

I have vague front end feeling with "eh" traction and the braking bumps are absolutely sucking the life out of me. How do I know? I finally got a chance to ride a bike with some KYB forks on it and I didn't know whether to cry or quit. I had no idea what I was missing out on. The bike felt like I was riding on a cloud. It gave me such a massive sigh of relief to know my program and efforts weren't trash.

I have to absolutely death grip the bike unless the track is smooth as a highway.

Dilemma:
My budget is about 1,000 on the forks. I am trying to buy my first house and start a family and the excessive bike expenses are not permitted in this season. I am very comfortable with an SFF conversion price point, but will this solve the problems mentioned in the above paragraph? I have used the search function and read every thread about this twice now. If you think the SFF kits suck, explain why. I want to learn why they suck. If you think they're good, explain how and your skill level.

Rider details: 200 lb, 6'3", race 250B, 450B, +25 Open, maybe some other 'open' classes. Strictly ride motocross and live in the south riding clay, mid-soft dirts.

Forks: JBI DIY kit, 150 PSI, not set up too extreme hard or soft. Feels great and JBI transformed this bike. I have nothing but positivity about his work, I think it's just more the air fork than anything else. Stock maxxis tire. PHDS Bar mounts as well with the green elastomers.

Shock: Middle of the road settings again, 104mm sag, 5.0 kg/mm rear spring. Starcross 5 medium.

Share your experiences and if you have some advice I'd love to talk. Thanks everyone!
WP 6500 kit is very good. It’s $1300 retail if I remember correctly which is a little more than your budget but in my opinion really worth it.
1
R VanKamp77
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10/10/2022 3:18pm
At this point I’m in midlife crisis mode. I took my YZ250 this weekend, bone stock. 30 minute motos not even gassed. I can’t ride the 350 for more than 15 minutes. That’s the capstone of this entire problem is that the forks are abusing me so bad I can’t ride long. Does anyone who’s commented have any idea how the disparity between performance on each bike can be so large? I’m so lost at this point.

I probably wasn’t as fast and I definitely didn’t have any “headroom” on my speed but I think that can be fixed by some good tires and a little intentionality. It still has the stock mx53 which I think is bad. Very bad.

I’ve yet to get the parts back from ProTune so I’ll go ride that soon but I just wanna discuss this in the interim maybe.
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adams189
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10/10/2022 3:36pm
At this point I’m in midlife crisis mode. I took my YZ250 this weekend, bone stock. 30 minute motos not even gassed. I can’t ride the...
At this point I’m in midlife crisis mode. I took my YZ250 this weekend, bone stock. 30 minute motos not even gassed. I can’t ride the 350 for more than 15 minutes. That’s the capstone of this entire problem is that the forks are abusing me so bad I can’t ride long. Does anyone who’s commented have any idea how the disparity between performance on each bike can be so large? I’m so lost at this point.

I probably wasn’t as fast and I definitely didn’t have any “headroom” on my speed but I think that can be fixed by some good tires and a little intentionality. It still has the stock mx53 which I think is bad. Very bad.

I’ve yet to get the parts back from ProTune so I’ll go ride that soon but I just wanna discuss this in the interim maybe.
It’s great that you have another bike to ride to compare (even if it’s not apples to apples). I have a YZ250 also and since getting my 350 and not ridden it. I was off for about a month and half with some bruised/cracked ribs so while I had the down time I put some parts on my 350. I had REP valve and install the WP 6500 kit when it was brand new so I just added a full FMF 4.1 exhaust and got a vortex ECU and had it mapped by Twisted Development. After riding it today and I can say this is the funnest bike I own. I had a 19’ YZ450 before the 350 and I am in love with it. The suspension feels plush yet soaks up the rough braking bumps ( in SoCal for reference). No harshness on slap down landings and can switch directions in corners pretty easily. I have 7.5 hours on my bike so I know it will still soften up a little more in the next 3’ish hours. I was told when I first got it that you will never be able to replicate the SSS KYB suspension on the Yamaha but I feel I’m damn close to that now. If nothing else, hope my experience gives you a little hope that you can get your bike dialed in.
R VanKamp77
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10/10/2022 4:09pm
At this point I’m in midlife crisis mode. I took my YZ250 this weekend, bone stock. 30 minute motos not even gassed. I can’t ride the...
At this point I’m in midlife crisis mode. I took my YZ250 this weekend, bone stock. 30 minute motos not even gassed. I can’t ride the 350 for more than 15 minutes. That’s the capstone of this entire problem is that the forks are abusing me so bad I can’t ride long. Does anyone who’s commented have any idea how the disparity between performance on each bike can be so large? I’m so lost at this point.

I probably wasn’t as fast and I definitely didn’t have any “headroom” on my speed but I think that can be fixed by some good tires and a little intentionality. It still has the stock mx53 which I think is bad. Very bad.

I’ve yet to get the parts back from ProTune so I’ll go ride that soon but I just wanna discuss this in the interim maybe.
adams189 wrote:
It’s great that you have another bike to ride to compare (even if it’s not apples to apples). I have a YZ250 also and since getting...
It’s great that you have another bike to ride to compare (even if it’s not apples to apples). I have a YZ250 also and since getting my 350 and not ridden it. I was off for about a month and half with some bruised/cracked ribs so while I had the down time I put some parts on my 350. I had REP valve and install the WP 6500 kit when it was brand new so I just added a full FMF 4.1 exhaust and got a vortex ECU and had it mapped by Twisted Development. After riding it today and I can say this is the funnest bike I own. I had a 19’ YZ450 before the 350 and I am in love with it. The suspension feels plush yet soaks up the rough braking bumps ( in SoCal for reference). No harshness on slap down landings and can switch directions in corners pretty easily. I have 7.5 hours on my bike so I know it will still soften up a little more in the next 3’ish hours. I was told when I first got it that you will never be able to replicate the SSS KYB suspension on the Yamaha but I feel I’m damn close to that now. If nothing else, hope my experience gives you a little hope that you can get your bike dialed in.
If you can bridge the gap then I’m hopeful I can too. Clearly I’m stumped so it’s nice to hear another Yamaha owner has found happiness. Will it be the difference i need? We’ll find out.

I may have some amazing suspension and bikes for sale next month too. I stopped riding the 2 stroke because I do not like two strokes. The freeness makes me feel like I’m always “rolling around” and I don’t think the yz chassis corners very well. But it is stable, and maybe that’s what’s giving me so much confidence. I was throwing whips for the first time in months because I actually trusted the bike and felt it was predictable. Heck I even managed to kick a brake tap with the rear fender in my peripheral. This is something I haven’t felt since owning the 350. I understand bikes are like shoes and not all bikes fit all people but for the level of investment I have I don’t want to believe that.

What I know is I haven’t felt the way I did this weekend in months and I’m dying to get it back. I wish I had some more bikes to ride but that’s not reality.
soggy
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10/10/2022 7:44pm
Your ktm Will never feel like your yz. ESP when comparing a 2 stroke to a 4.
R VanKamp77
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10/10/2022 7:46pm
soggy wrote:
Your ktm Will never feel like your yz. ESP when comparing a 2 stroke to a 4.
How much of the front end skating around do you think is the front tire? I was at 100mm sag too.

You’re right. It’s crazy how different two motorcycles can feel given how similar they are in the big picture.
adams189
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10/10/2022 7:55pm
soggy wrote:
Your ktm Will never feel like your yz. ESP when comparing a 2 stroke to a 4.
How much of the front end skating around do you think is the front tire? I was at 100mm sag too. You’re right. It’s crazy how...
How much of the front end skating around do you think is the front tire? I was at 100mm sag too.

You’re right. It’s crazy how different two motorcycles can feel given how similar they are in the big picture.
Where are your forks in the clamp? I am at 105 sag and 5mm up with my spec from AEO.
R VanKamp77
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10/10/2022 7:58pm
soggy wrote:
Your ktm Will never feel like your yz. ESP when comparing a 2 stroke to a 4.
How much of the front end skating around do you think is the front tire? I was at 100mm sag too. You’re right. It’s crazy how...
How much of the front end skating around do you think is the front tire? I was at 100mm sag too.

You’re right. It’s crazy how different two motorcycles can feel given how similar they are in the big picture.
adams189 wrote:
Where are your forks in the clamp? I am at 105 sag and 5mm up with my spec from AEO.
3mm roughly.

On the upside, the suspension is incredible in the middle setting with just the right springs. I forgot how incredible KYB is lol.
adams189
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10/10/2022 8:11pm
How much of the front end skating around do you think is the front tire? I was at 100mm sag too. You’re right. It’s crazy how...
How much of the front end skating around do you think is the front tire? I was at 100mm sag too.

You’re right. It’s crazy how different two motorcycles can feel given how similar they are in the big picture.
adams189 wrote:
Where are your forks in the clamp? I am at 105 sag and 5mm up with my spec from AEO.
3mm roughly.

On the upside, the suspension is incredible in the middle setting with just the right springs. I forgot how incredible KYB is lol.
With a WP spring conversion I feel I am 90-95% the way there.
1
soggy
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10/11/2022 6:26am
soggy wrote:
Your ktm Will never feel like your yz. ESP when comparing a 2 stroke to a 4.
How much of the front end skating around do you think is the front tire? I was at 100mm sag too. You’re right. It’s crazy how...
How much of the front end skating around do you think is the front tire? I was at 100mm sag too.

You’re right. It’s crazy how different two motorcycles can feel given how similar they are in the big picture.
Very little. The mx53 is a great tire imo. What’s your psi at? I do think once you have the shock setup properly you will notice a big improvement.
R VanKamp77
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10/11/2022 7:22am
soggy wrote:
Your ktm Will never feel like your yz. ESP when comparing a 2 stroke to a 4.
How much of the front end skating around do you think is the front tire? I was at 100mm sag too. You’re right. It’s crazy how...
How much of the front end skating around do you think is the front tire? I was at 100mm sag too.

You’re right. It’s crazy how different two motorcycles can feel given how similar they are in the big picture.
soggy wrote:
Very little. The mx53 is a great tire imo. What’s your psi at? I do think once you have the shock setup properly you will notice...
Very little. The mx53 is a great tire imo. What’s your psi at? I do think once you have the shock setup properly you will notice a big improvement.
Remember, we're talking about the YZ250 at this point. So I would consider the shock to be setup (IMO).

PSI is about 12-12.5. I just think it's bizarre that the YZ250 will push and slide the front around so easily, especially with 22mm clamps. I might put a pirelli or mx3S on it and ride it again just to see the difference.
soggy
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10/11/2022 8:52am
How much of the front end skating around do you think is the front tire? I was at 100mm sag too. You’re right. It’s crazy how...
How much of the front end skating around do you think is the front tire? I was at 100mm sag too.

You’re right. It’s crazy how different two motorcycles can feel given how similar they are in the big picture.
soggy wrote:
Very little. The mx53 is a great tire imo. What’s your psi at? I do think once you have the shock setup properly you will notice...
Very little. The mx53 is a great tire imo. What’s your psi at? I do think once you have the shock setup properly you will notice a big improvement.
Remember, we're talking about the YZ250 at this point. So I would consider the shock to be setup (IMO). PSI is about 12-12.5. I just think...
Remember, we're talking about the YZ250 at this point. So I would consider the shock to be setup (IMO).

PSI is about 12-12.5. I just think it's bizarre that the YZ250 will push and slide the front around so easily, especially with 22mm clamps. I might put a pirelli or mx3S on it and ride it again just to see the difference.
Two strokes aren’t as planted as 4 strokes because of very little engine braking. I would run a little more pressure too 13-13.5.
1
R VanKamp77
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10/11/2022 9:23am
soggy wrote:
Very little. The mx53 is a great tire imo. What’s your psi at? I do think once you have the shock setup properly you will notice...
Very little. The mx53 is a great tire imo. What’s your psi at? I do think once you have the shock setup properly you will notice a big improvement.
Remember, we're talking about the YZ250 at this point. So I would consider the shock to be setup (IMO). PSI is about 12-12.5. I just think...
Remember, we're talking about the YZ250 at this point. So I would consider the shock to be setup (IMO).

PSI is about 12-12.5. I just think it's bizarre that the YZ250 will push and slide the front around so easily, especially with 22mm clamps. I might put a pirelli or mx3S on it and ride it again just to see the difference.
soggy wrote:
Two strokes aren’t as planted as 4 strokes because of very little engine braking. I would run a little more pressure too 13-13.5.
Do you think it's as black and white as just getting more force on the front tire? I'll play with the pressure too. The nice thing about being so comfortable on the YZ is that I really notice different parts/setups.
soggy
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10/11/2022 12:12pm
Remember, we're talking about the YZ250 at this point. So I would consider the shock to be setup (IMO). PSI is about 12-12.5. I just think...
Remember, we're talking about the YZ250 at this point. So I would consider the shock to be setup (IMO).

PSI is about 12-12.5. I just think it's bizarre that the YZ250 will push and slide the front around so easily, especially with 22mm clamps. I might put a pirelli or mx3S on it and ride it again just to see the difference.
soggy wrote:
Two strokes aren’t as planted as 4 strokes because of very little engine braking. I would run a little more pressure too 13-13.5.
Do you think it's as black and white as just getting more force on the front tire? I'll play with the pressure too. The nice thing...
Do you think it's as black and white as just getting more force on the front tire? I'll play with the pressure too. The nice thing about being so comfortable on the YZ is that I really notice different parts/setups.
It will never feel as planted as a four stroke. It’s just the nature of the beast. You may be able improve it but don’t expect you get the same bite. Especially areas 1 and 2 of the corner.

Got any pics of your bikes?
1
ZinAZ
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10/11/2022 12:26pm
mx317 wrote:
I’ve had KYB inserts done by Enzo and they were good. I was pleasantly surprised just how good stock 22 KTM 350SXF forks are. I weighed...
I’ve had KYB inserts done by Enzo and they were good. I was pleasantly surprised just how good stock 22 KTM 350SXF forks are. I weighed them on my shipping scales and the insert forks were 4 lbs heavier also. I’ve read 3 lbs, but mine were a touch over 4 lbs.
Can you elaborate more on the forks, had them revalve my aer48 forks and do a kyb piston and revalve on the the shock and its feels awesome.
2
mx317
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10/11/2022 2:59pm
ZinAZ wrote:
Can you elaborate more on the forks, had them revalve my aer48 forks and do a kyb piston and revalve on the the shock and its...
Can you elaborate more on the forks, had them revalve my aer48 forks and do a kyb piston and revalve on the the shock and its feels awesome.
I guess I’m just the odd bird, but I like the stock forks. I have an XACT pro shock that really works well and as been stated above to get the forks to work well, the shock has to be good. Maybe they missed the setup for me a little on the KYB inserts because they felt a little harsh especially on slap down landings. They were good, but I’ve had better. The best fork I’ve had was the Ohlins hybrid fork that Coppersmith does. I let that fork go on a bike I sold. I would do another if they would just let me do the installation and not do the coatings. It added about $500 to the cost. But as I said before, I’m not really too unhappy with the stock fork that hasn’t been revalved or anything.
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R VanKamp77
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10/11/2022 8:59pm
soggy wrote:
Two strokes aren’t as planted as 4 strokes because of very little engine braking. I would run a little more pressure too 13-13.5.
Do you think it's as black and white as just getting more force on the front tire? I'll play with the pressure too. The nice thing...
Do you think it's as black and white as just getting more force on the front tire? I'll play with the pressure too. The nice thing about being so comfortable on the YZ is that I really notice different parts/setups.
soggy wrote:
It will never feel as planted as a four stroke. It’s just the nature of the beast. You may be able improve it but don’t expect...
It will never feel as planted as a four stroke. It’s just the nature of the beast. You may be able improve it but don’t expect you get the same bite. Especially areas 1 and 2 of the corner.

Got any pics of your bikes?
I clearly favor the “super stock” look lol

Rotaholic
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10/12/2022 2:38am
I would recheck your work when installing the forks, how are you setting the front axel? Best way to do it is have a friend help you and remove the handle bars and undo the fork caps then press the wheel all the way up till the forks bottom and set it there.
Check the triple clamp pinch bolts, use a torque wrench if you can. Where is the rear wheel in the swing arm? The further back the more weight on the forks, this can be a good thing. A soft shock can give you a horrible harsh fork.
Never under estimate how much engine braking can upset a chassis and how your forks work.
2
38special
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10/12/2022 4:46am
I understand we all like to tinker and spend money on our bikes.

But if somebody is in constant search of perfection, at some point the old saying "It's the Indian, not the arrow" comes into play. Wink
5
soggy
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10/12/2022 5:07am
Rotaholic wrote:
I would recheck your work when installing the forks, how are you setting the front axel? Best way to do it is have a friend help...
I would recheck your work when installing the forks, how are you setting the front axel? Best way to do it is have a friend help you and remove the handle bars and undo the fork caps then press the wheel all the way up till the forks bottom and set it there.
Check the triple clamp pinch bolts, use a torque wrench if you can. Where is the rear wheel in the swing arm? The further back the more weight on the forks, this can be a good thing. A soft shock can give you a horrible harsh fork.
Never under estimate how much engine braking can upset a chassis and how your forks work.
I have never heard of anyone doing it that way. Seems a bit extreme and possible messy. I’m sure it works though.
5
mx317
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10/12/2022 5:14am
Rotaholic wrote:
I would recheck your work when installing the forks, how are you setting the front axel? Best way to do it is have a friend help...
I would recheck your work when installing the forks, how are you setting the front axel? Best way to do it is have a friend help you and remove the handle bars and undo the fork caps then press the wheel all the way up till the forks bottom and set it there.
Check the triple clamp pinch bolts, use a torque wrench if you can. Where is the rear wheel in the swing arm? The further back the more weight on the forks, this can be a good thing. A soft shock can give you a horrible harsh fork.
Never under estimate how much engine braking can upset a chassis and how your forks work.
Usually if the axle is moving free in the right fork lug, it will self center. If you have doubts, you can check with this tool.


1
R VanKamp77
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10/12/2022 5:25am
38special wrote:
I understand we all like to tinker and spend money on our bikes. But if somebody is in constant search of perfection, at some point the...
I understand we all like to tinker and spend money on our bikes.

But if somebody is in constant search of perfection, at some point the old saying "It's the Indian, not the arrow" comes into play. Wink
Nope. I set all clickers to 12 on the Yamaha and had a blast and rode like a pissed off Italian. It’s the bike lol. I’ve fought it since I owned it.

It may just be a bad fit, but I’m not hard to please by any means lol.
R VanKamp77
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10/12/2022 5:29am
Rotaholic wrote:
I would recheck your work when installing the forks, how are you setting the front axel? Best way to do it is have a friend help...
I would recheck your work when installing the forks, how are you setting the front axel? Best way to do it is have a friend help you and remove the handle bars and undo the fork caps then press the wheel all the way up till the forks bottom and set it there.
Check the triple clamp pinch bolts, use a torque wrench if you can. Where is the rear wheel in the swing arm? The further back the more weight on the forks, this can be a good thing. A soft shock can give you a horrible harsh fork.
Never under estimate how much engine braking can upset a chassis and how your forks work.
I use a torque wrench on everything and I’m completely certain the forks are centered ): I wish it were that easy.

I got shipping notifications yesterday so it’ll all get reinstalled this weekend and I might even ride it but I doubt it. Soon though. ProTune made me feel like he knew exactly what to do so I’m really excited to test it out
1
MX558
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10/12/2022 6:37am
Rotaholic wrote:
I would recheck your work when installing the forks, how are you setting the front axel? Best way to do it is have a friend help...
I would recheck your work when installing the forks, how are you setting the front axel? Best way to do it is have a friend help you and remove the handle bars and undo the fork caps then press the wheel all the way up till the forks bottom and set it there.
Check the triple clamp pinch bolts, use a torque wrench if you can. Where is the rear wheel in the swing arm? The further back the more weight on the forks, this can be a good thing. A soft shock can give you a horrible harsh fork.
Never under estimate how much engine braking can upset a chassis and how your forks work.
soggy wrote:
I have never heard of anyone doing it that way. Seems a bit extreme and possible messy. I’m sure it works though.
Seems like over kill to me also . The way I set the fork height for alignment is with the front wheel off and make sure the axle slides through with very little friction on both lugs . It's way we did it in road racing. Now if you change fork height without taking the wheel off it could mess things up. Depending on the bike you'd be surprised at the difference in fork heights
Gravel
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10/12/2022 6:42am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2022 6:45am
Have you checked for a bent or badly machined triple clamp or axle? Clamps slightly misaligned in rotation? This still sounds like an alignment issue..
R VanKamp77
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10/12/2022 7:13am
Gravel wrote:
Have you checked for a bent or badly machined triple clamp or axle? Clamps slightly misaligned in rotation? This still sounds like an alignment issue..
If something like that is afoot I truly don’t have any way of telling. I can get the forks to sit perfectly and the axle to slide back and forth with zero effort. I’m not saying you’re wrong but I am saying if you’re right, It is so minute I’ll never know.

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