Current housing market

Titan1
Posts
9440
Joined
2/3/2010
Location
Lehi, UT, USA
4/23/2022 10:36pm
Chance1216 wrote:
Here’s an example in my area. 2-3 years ago, this would’ve been a mid 300K house. Personally, it would be worth it for that price with...
Here’s an example in my area. 2-3 years ago, this would’ve been a mid 300K house. Personally, it would be worth it for that price with a mortgage around $2100.

The problem with today is, trying to have money for incidentals while staying on top of bills. My pressure washer quit working. That was $450. I had to get tires for my truck. Another $1300. Top it off with sticking calipers and, scorched brakes. Another $1100. $2850 in the hole within the the last two weeks. Figure that plus $3500 if I had a mortgage, $6300 without even touching utilities. That’s not a monthly occurrence. However, scrapping by and having sh** hit the fan out of nowhere, a lot of people are setting themselves up for failure. A lot of people live paycheck to paycheck. With rising cost of rent, food, gas, not everyone can save a few months worth of bills either.

Luckily, my kids are grown and, out of the house. It’s just my wife and, I. I’m thankful I’m in the position I’m in. I’m fairly frugal with money and, have a decent job.

Working construction, most people I know are able to pay their bills if they ever were to be laid off with unemployment. Most of them have owned their houses for several years already though. That isn’t the case today for many new home owners. If you lose your job, you’re walking a tightrope. Anyways, sorry if this is a bit long winded. https://www.redfin.com/WA/Federal-Way/36322-25th-Ave-S-98003/home/361696



Titan1 wrote:
Are you paying rent right now? If so, how much per month (if you don’t mind I ask)?
Chance1216 wrote:
It’s fine man. I currently pay $1550 a month. I have a decent landlord. I’ve been here awhile and he’s only raised the rent twice.
I don’t know what your property tax rates are where you live (among other things) so these are loose ball park figures… but to keep your payment the same as your rent you’d need to finance around $250k (Loan amount….add your down payment to that for your purchase price). Unless you have $250k for a down payment, or live in the Midwest you probably won’t be able to find anything to keep your mortgage the same as your rent.

First time homebuyers have it rough…often it’s buying a condo/townhome, just to get something in their price range and get their foot in the door…and living there until they’ve got enough equity, and/or their financial situation improved enough to sell the condo and roll the equity into a home.

Otherwise you could look at a duplex…fha will let you live in one half and rent the other (and use that rent to qualify for the loan) with as little as 3.5% down. Then you could move out, rent both sides (use the positive cash flow to help with the mortgage on your next house), and keep the property and buy another home.

But don’t forget to factor in principal reduction and the tax benefits to your decision.
5
Chance1216
Posts
8797
Joined
4/1/2018
Location
Carson, CA, USA
4/24/2022 12:50am Edited Date/Time 4/24/2022 12:53am
Titan1 wrote:
Are you paying rent right now? If so, how much per month (if you don’t mind I ask)?
Chance1216 wrote:
It’s fine man. I currently pay $1550 a month. I have a decent landlord. I’ve been here awhile and he’s only raised the rent twice.
Titan1 wrote:
I don’t know what your property tax rates are where you live (among other things) so these are loose ball park figures… but to keep your...
I don’t know what your property tax rates are where you live (among other things) so these are loose ball park figures… but to keep your payment the same as your rent you’d need to finance around $250k (Loan amount….add your down payment to that for your purchase price). Unless you have $250k for a down payment, or live in the Midwest you probably won’t be able to find anything to keep your mortgage the same as your rent.

First time homebuyers have it rough…often it’s buying a condo/townhome, just to get something in their price range and get their foot in the door…and living there until they’ve got enough equity, and/or their financial situation improved enough to sell the condo and roll the equity into a home.

Otherwise you could look at a duplex…fha will let you live in one half and rent the other (and use that rent to qualify for the loan) with as little as 3.5% down. Then you could move out, rent both sides (use the positive cash flow to help with the mortgage on your next house), and keep the property and buy another home.

But don’t forget to factor in principal reduction and the tax benefits to your decision.
Although a potential first time home buyer, getting approved for a loan was the easy part. Finding a place is the hard part.

Realistically, $2700 a month still gives me plenty of breathing room. That’s approximately a 350K house.
There are no 250K listings unless I look into a trailer within a park. With that comes space rent which typically increases annually. As far as a duplex, I’m sure the neighbors won’t appreciate my headboard banging on the wall late at night and, the same goes for myself. Most duplexes are around 600K.
That’ll put me in over my head if I ever got laid off. Especially if the tenant isn’t good at paying rent on time and, I have to go through the whole eviction process. I don’t trust people enough to be willing to rely on them to pay my bills.

Right now, the listings I’ve seen for 350K are pretty far away and, add another 40 miles each way with my commute to work. I’m already in 2.5 hours of traffic each day. The additional 40 miles could add another 2.5 -3 hours going through downtown Seattle and, Tacoma. The houses are typically in need of immediate work.

The whole situation is a joke right now. Longer commute, come home angry and, have to work on a house later into the night or, stretch the finances so thin, you can’t afford two weeks off of it snows. Pick your poison. F*** all that.
ns503
Posts
4606
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
NS Toolies, CA
4/24/2022 6:18am
Any of you guys looking for a house seriously check out building instead? I know building supplies have gone up too and maybe some are harder to get with supply issues, but thinking not up as much as home prices? If you're some kind of trades guy or contractor, should also be an opportunity to put some sweat equity in. But then again, you also need the time for it too. That or buying a fixer upper. Seems to be a few of those on the market around here.
-MAVERICK-
Posts
67061
Joined
3/26/2015
Location
Ontario, CA
4/24/2022 8:04am
ns503 wrote:
Any of you guys looking for a house seriously check out building instead? I know building supplies have gone up too and maybe some are harder...
Any of you guys looking for a house seriously check out building instead? I know building supplies have gone up too and maybe some are harder to get with supply issues, but thinking not up as much as home prices? If you're some kind of trades guy or contractor, should also be an opportunity to put some sweat equity in. But then again, you also need the time for it too. That or buying a fixer upper. Seems to be a few of those on the market around here.
Building brings another set of challenges, but here's an example for my area.

You first need to buy land before starting and depending on where you are, it's expensive.

Where I'm at there's nothing under 125k-250k. Just 10-20 minutes away and it's anywhere from 300k-600k+ for land. That's for 1-2 acres. You don't need to pay the land outright, but it does facilitate things.

Then you need to get plans done, apply and pay for permits, pay a development charge, etc. Plans around here are anywhere from $2 a square foot to $10+ a square foot. Some places charge a percentage of the build cost. Permits where I'm at would be around 15k-20k. Ottawa would be double that for the same size house.

You then need funds to start the build process and bring it to a certain build stage before the bank releases you funds. Some banks won't lend you anything if you can't show proof of knowledge, so you then need to go with a builder or project manager.

Hiring a builder or project manager you'll get a new house, but you won't be saving much if anything as they need to make a profit. Some will let you do some work, but not all.

There also the fact that you also need a place to live while you build, so whether you're renting or paying a mortgage, you still need to pay for that.
3

The Shop

ns503
Posts
4606
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
NS Toolies, CA
4/24/2022 9:21am
ns503 wrote:
Any of you guys looking for a house seriously check out building instead? I know building supplies have gone up too and maybe some are harder...
Any of you guys looking for a house seriously check out building instead? I know building supplies have gone up too and maybe some are harder to get with supply issues, but thinking not up as much as home prices? If you're some kind of trades guy or contractor, should also be an opportunity to put some sweat equity in. But then again, you also need the time for it too. That or buying a fixer upper. Seems to be a few of those on the market around here.
-MAVERICK- wrote:
Building brings another set of challenges, but here's an example for my area. You first need to buy land before starting and depending on where you...
Building brings another set of challenges, but here's an example for my area.

You first need to buy land before starting and depending on where you are, it's expensive.

Where I'm at there's nothing under 125k-250k. Just 10-20 minutes away and it's anywhere from 300k-600k+ for land. That's for 1-2 acres. You don't need to pay the land outright, but it does facilitate things.

Then you need to get plans done, apply and pay for permits, pay a development charge, etc. Plans around here are anywhere from $2 a square foot to $10+ a square foot. Some places charge a percentage of the build cost. Permits where I'm at would be around 15k-20k. Ottawa would be double that for the same size house.

You then need funds to start the build process and bring it to a certain build stage before the bank releases you funds. Some banks won't lend you anything if you can't show proof of knowledge, so you then need to go with a builder or project manager.

Hiring a builder or project manager you'll get a new house, but you won't be saving much if anything as they need to make a profit. Some will let you do some work, but not all.

There also the fact that you also need a place to live while you build, so whether you're renting or paying a mortgage, you still need to pay for that.
Yup, realize all that. Did it ourselves 25 years ago.

Man I cant believe some of the prices I'm reading from other places. No wonder so many people are moving here lately to poor little old NS. Market has been crazy hot here too for the last 1-2 years. But looks like still a big bargain compared to other areas.
1
4/24/2022 10:22am
Chance1216 wrote:
It’s fine man. I currently pay $1550 a month. I have a decent landlord. I’ve been here awhile and he’s only raised the rent twice.
Titan1 wrote:
I don’t know what your property tax rates are where you live (among other things) so these are loose ball park figures… but to keep your...
I don’t know what your property tax rates are where you live (among other things) so these are loose ball park figures… but to keep your payment the same as your rent you’d need to finance around $250k (Loan amount….add your down payment to that for your purchase price). Unless you have $250k for a down payment, or live in the Midwest you probably won’t be able to find anything to keep your mortgage the same as your rent.

First time homebuyers have it rough…often it’s buying a condo/townhome, just to get something in their price range and get their foot in the door…and living there until they’ve got enough equity, and/or their financial situation improved enough to sell the condo and roll the equity into a home.

Otherwise you could look at a duplex…fha will let you live in one half and rent the other (and use that rent to qualify for the loan) with as little as 3.5% down. Then you could move out, rent both sides (use the positive cash flow to help with the mortgage on your next house), and keep the property and buy another home.

But don’t forget to factor in principal reduction and the tax benefits to your decision.
Chance1216 wrote:
Although a potential first time home buyer, getting approved for a loan was the easy part. Finding a place is the hard part. Realistically, $2700 a...
Although a potential first time home buyer, getting approved for a loan was the easy part. Finding a place is the hard part.

Realistically, $2700 a month still gives me plenty of breathing room. That’s approximately a 350K house.
There are no 250K listings unless I look into a trailer within a park. With that comes space rent which typically increases annually. As far as a duplex, I’m sure the neighbors won’t appreciate my headboard banging on the wall late at night and, the same goes for myself. Most duplexes are around 600K.
That’ll put me in over my head if I ever got laid off. Especially if the tenant isn’t good at paying rent on time and, I have to go through the whole eviction process. I don’t trust people enough to be willing to rely on them to pay my bills.

Right now, the listings I’ve seen for 350K are pretty far away and, add another 40 miles each way with my commute to work. I’m already in 2.5 hours of traffic each day. The additional 40 miles could add another 2.5 -3 hours going through downtown Seattle and, Tacoma. The houses are typically in need of immediate work.

The whole situation is a joke right now. Longer commute, come home angry and, have to work on a house later into the night or, stretch the finances so thin, you can’t afford two weeks off of it snows. Pick your poison. F*** all that.
Save your money and keep living within your means the market will come to you. I was in the same boat during the boom in the early 2000s and was able to snatch a short sale in SoCal on the dip. I qualified for about 150k more than what I needed but knew what I could realistically afford I ended up with a mortgage 50 dollars more then our rent at the time. You're being smart keep being patient.
5
Falcon
Posts
12468
Joined
11/16/2011
Location
Menifee, CA, USA
4/24/2022 10:38am
I'm going to bite the bullet and buy in 11 months when my current lease is up, come Hell or high prices. Throwing away rent each month is a fool's game and I'm done playing. I don't care if I pay too much; I'll still be better off in 20 years.
1
1
ToolMaker
Posts
9974
Joined
11/19/2011
Location
Escondido, CA, USA
Fantasy
4/26/2022 5:00pm
Titan1 wrote:
The fundamentals of the mortgage lending industry are completely different than they were leading up to 08…back then, it was arms, interest only, negative amortization, $0...
The fundamentals of the mortgage lending industry are completely different than they were leading up to 08…back then, it was arms, interest only, negative amortization, $0 down, low into rates, hard prepayment penalties, no income, asset, employment verification….this doesn’t even get into the secondary market shenanigans…

Today? Predominately fixed rate fully amortized loans (nobody has been doing arms….though, as fixed rates keep going up the arms will likely become more appealing), No prepayment penalties, verified income, assets and employment. What this means is that if people can keep their jobs the majority of them SHOULD be able to afford their homes. And NONE of the secondary market shenanigans.

So…I won’t be so bold as to say there won’t be a correction, there will…how significant that correction is will be localized to each individual market…but to hold your breath for an 08 type of correction is a bit off the mark, and I think the chances of that are very very slim. Again, because the fundamentals of mortgage lending and the lack of secondary market shenanigans are completely different than 08.

I think prices will flatten and possibly decrease-how much they will decrease will depend on your specific market…for example, in Utah, fastest growing state in the nation, lowest unemployment, people moving here is creating a housing shortage, and that shortage is causing values to go up…where as in another place in the country that may not be the case.

So don’t look at National numbers, look at your market…is the population growing? What is the local unemployment rate? Those are great indicators of what your housing market will do over the next 12-24 months…
I think I would have written most of what you wrote just like you did. This is no 2008, very different. But in addition I would add that in 08 institutions started buying up properties for cheap. Institutions now hold a significant portion of properties and they will not be selling. Their model is to make money renting. I am skeptical of a real estate correction because owners don't want to sell. There is just no inventory. Yes you have higher interest rates and so less people can afford what's available, so I think we'll see a flattening, but very skeptical we'll see any significant reduction in prices.
I would say get your financing in order and check zillow/redfin on a daily basis and if a deal comes up, you'll have very little time to act but if you have your ducks in row, you might get lucky.
TM
ToolMaker
Posts
9974
Joined
11/19/2011
Location
Escondido, CA, USA
Fantasy
4/26/2022 5:11pm
Chance1216 wrote:
It’s fine man. I currently pay $1550 a month. I have a decent landlord. I’ve been here awhile and he’s only raised the rent twice.
Titan1 wrote:
I don’t know what your property tax rates are where you live (among other things) so these are loose ball park figures… but to keep your...
I don’t know what your property tax rates are where you live (among other things) so these are loose ball park figures… but to keep your payment the same as your rent you’d need to finance around $250k (Loan amount….add your down payment to that for your purchase price). Unless you have $250k for a down payment, or live in the Midwest you probably won’t be able to find anything to keep your mortgage the same as your rent.

First time homebuyers have it rough…often it’s buying a condo/townhome, just to get something in their price range and get their foot in the door…and living there until they’ve got enough equity, and/or their financial situation improved enough to sell the condo and roll the equity into a home.

Otherwise you could look at a duplex…fha will let you live in one half and rent the other (and use that rent to qualify for the loan) with as little as 3.5% down. Then you could move out, rent both sides (use the positive cash flow to help with the mortgage on your next house), and keep the property and buy another home.

But don’t forget to factor in principal reduction and the tax benefits to your decision.
Chance1216 wrote:
Although a potential first time home buyer, getting approved for a loan was the easy part. Finding a place is the hard part. Realistically, $2700 a...
Although a potential first time home buyer, getting approved for a loan was the easy part. Finding a place is the hard part.

Realistically, $2700 a month still gives me plenty of breathing room. That’s approximately a 350K house.
There are no 250K listings unless I look into a trailer within a park. With that comes space rent which typically increases annually. As far as a duplex, I’m sure the neighbors won’t appreciate my headboard banging on the wall late at night and, the same goes for myself. Most duplexes are around 600K.
That’ll put me in over my head if I ever got laid off. Especially if the tenant isn’t good at paying rent on time and, I have to go through the whole eviction process. I don’t trust people enough to be willing to rely on them to pay my bills.

Right now, the listings I’ve seen for 350K are pretty far away and, add another 40 miles each way with my commute to work. I’m already in 2.5 hours of traffic each day. The additional 40 miles could add another 2.5 -3 hours going through downtown Seattle and, Tacoma. The houses are typically in need of immediate work.

The whole situation is a joke right now. Longer commute, come home angry and, have to work on a house later into the night or, stretch the finances so thin, you can’t afford two weeks off of it snows. Pick your poison. F*** all that.
You should check Credit Unions for a loan. While I'm not a fan of variable rate loans, my daughter has been looking
to buy her first property. Credit Union has a great option. Starts out at 2.5% and in 5 years it can go to 4.5% for the next 5 years, and in 10 years it can go up to a max of 5.5% Which is not much worse than where she would start with a fixed right now. So she would start out a about $1,600 for a 4$00K loan. In 5-10 years it will be a rental for her and she will be in a bigger property. And sometime in the next 10 years the interest rates should get reasonable again and she can refi.
TM
peelout
Posts
18386
Joined
1/6/2011
Location
Ogden, UT, USA
4/26/2022 5:12pm
it's insane.

we've been in the same boat, i have a TON of equity in our house and we have an in-ground pool so it's going to be a hot commodity. problem is the type/size/price of house we want just isn't adding up. the market is absolutely insane in Northern Utah (and i'm sure most of the country)

i'm currently on a 20 year at 3%, i'm having a hard time imagining dropping to a 30 year at +/-6%
1
Titan1
Posts
9440
Joined
2/3/2010
Location
Lehi, UT, USA
4/26/2022 5:49pm
Titan1 wrote:
The fundamentals of the mortgage lending industry are completely different than they were leading up to 08…back then, it was arms, interest only, negative amortization, $0...
The fundamentals of the mortgage lending industry are completely different than they were leading up to 08…back then, it was arms, interest only, negative amortization, $0 down, low into rates, hard prepayment penalties, no income, asset, employment verification….this doesn’t even get into the secondary market shenanigans…

Today? Predominately fixed rate fully amortized loans (nobody has been doing arms….though, as fixed rates keep going up the arms will likely become more appealing), No prepayment penalties, verified income, assets and employment. What this means is that if people can keep their jobs the majority of them SHOULD be able to afford their homes. And NONE of the secondary market shenanigans.

So…I won’t be so bold as to say there won’t be a correction, there will…how significant that correction is will be localized to each individual market…but to hold your breath for an 08 type of correction is a bit off the mark, and I think the chances of that are very very slim. Again, because the fundamentals of mortgage lending and the lack of secondary market shenanigans are completely different than 08.

I think prices will flatten and possibly decrease-how much they will decrease will depend on your specific market…for example, in Utah, fastest growing state in the nation, lowest unemployment, people moving here is creating a housing shortage, and that shortage is causing values to go up…where as in another place in the country that may not be the case.

So don’t look at National numbers, look at your market…is the population growing? What is the local unemployment rate? Those are great indicators of what your housing market will do over the next 12-24 months…
ToolMaker wrote:
I think I would have written most of what you wrote just like you did. This is no 2008, very different. But in addition I would...
I think I would have written most of what you wrote just like you did. This is no 2008, very different. But in addition I would add that in 08 institutions started buying up properties for cheap. Institutions now hold a significant portion of properties and they will not be selling. Their model is to make money renting. I am skeptical of a real estate correction because owners don't want to sell. There is just no inventory. Yes you have higher interest rates and so less people can afford what's available, so I think we'll see a flattening, but very skeptical we'll see any significant reduction in prices.
I would say get your financing in order and check zillow/redfin on a daily basis and if a deal comes up, you'll have very little time to act but if you have your ducks in row, you might get lucky.
TM
One thing I don’t understand is the institutions buying up a ton of properties…I’ve got a pretty decent pulse on the market here in Utah…and I haven’t heard one time of a hedge fund or huge investor group buying up any properties…let alone a huge chunk of them.

Is it just not happening in Utah?
Chance1216
Posts
8797
Joined
4/1/2018
Location
Carson, CA, USA
4/26/2022 6:36pm
ToolMaker wrote:
I think I would have written most of what you wrote just like you did. This is no 2008, very different. But in addition I would...
I think I would have written most of what you wrote just like you did. This is no 2008, very different. But in addition I would add that in 08 institutions started buying up properties for cheap. Institutions now hold a significant portion of properties and they will not be selling. Their model is to make money renting. I am skeptical of a real estate correction because owners don't want to sell. There is just no inventory. Yes you have higher interest rates and so less people can afford what's available, so I think we'll see a flattening, but very skeptical we'll see any significant reduction in prices.
I would say get your financing in order and check zillow/redfin on a daily basis and if a deal comes up, you'll have very little time to act but if you have your ducks in row, you might get lucky.
TM
After three months of checking Zillow, Redfin daily and, having a realtor searching for homes as well, it’s a test in patience for sure.

Having everything lined up took awhile but, to finally get to that point and, deal with this inflated market is a huge letdown.

What I’m not ready for is the 100K above asking price like most sellers are getting. I just can’t comprehend how this is the new normal.

Here’s a house that was listed for 410K in my neighborhood. It sold for 500K.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2305-SW-341st-Pl-Federal-Way-WA-9802…
4/26/2022 8:51pm
ns503 wrote:
Any of you guys looking for a house seriously check out building instead? I know building supplies have gone up too and maybe some are harder...
Any of you guys looking for a house seriously check out building instead? I know building supplies have gone up too and maybe some are harder to get with supply issues, but thinking not up as much as home prices? If you're some kind of trades guy or contractor, should also be an opportunity to put some sweat equity in. But then again, you also need the time for it too. That or buying a fixer upper. Seems to be a few of those on the market around here.
We got a quote for lumber about a year ago, it was three times what it would have been pre-covid. Our quote normally would have been 30k and it went to 100k. Just for wood. All the other items to build were going to be the same. 2-3x the cost. We have a lot saved because we took advantage of the COVID market and sold it a nice profit. But we still don't want to bite the bullet yet. I'm pretty much waiting for my father-in-law to retire so hopefully he can start building our house. I have a lot of friends that can help, we're just waiting for now to see what happens. Everything is so crazy right now. Seems like it's all going to hell in a hand basket.
S.Loyer
Posts
1749
Joined
1/4/2012
Location
Palmer, AK, USA
4/26/2022 9:03pm
I'm in same boat been trying to buy last 6 months and every house I like is over priced and every fixer upper is severely overpriced

Don't know what to do but wait it out
mx617
Posts
1622
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Trail, CA
4/26/2022 10:46pm
Chance1216 wrote:
Although a potential first time home buyer, getting approved for a loan was the easy part. Finding a place is the hard part. Realistically, $2700 a...
Although a potential first time home buyer, getting approved for a loan was the easy part. Finding a place is the hard part.

Realistically, $2700 a month still gives me plenty of breathing room. That’s approximately a 350K house.
There are no 250K listings unless I look into a trailer within a park. With that comes space rent which typically increases annually. As far as a duplex, I’m sure the neighbors won’t appreciate my headboard banging on the wall late at night and, the same goes for myself. Most duplexes are around 600K.
That’ll put me in over my head if I ever got laid off. Especially if the tenant isn’t good at paying rent on time and, I have to go through the whole eviction process. I don’t trust people enough to be willing to rely on them to pay my bills.

Right now, the listings I’ve seen for 350K are pretty far away and, add another 40 miles each way with my commute to work. I’m already in 2.5 hours of traffic each day. The additional 40 miles could add another 2.5 -3 hours going through downtown Seattle and, Tacoma. The houses are typically in need of immediate work.

The whole situation is a joke right now. Longer commute, come home angry and, have to work on a house later into the night or, stretch the finances so thin, you can’t afford two weeks off of it snows. Pick your poison. F*** all that.
Curious how the math works down there. My principal residence has a $550k mortgage and the monthly payment is $2300 for a 25 year amortization. How do you pay more for half as much house? What are interest rates like?
dmm698
Posts
955
Joined
6/24/2015
Location
USA
4/27/2022 6:16am Edited Date/Time 4/27/2022 6:23am
Chance1216 wrote:
Although a potential first time home buyer, getting approved for a loan was the easy part. Finding a place is the hard part. Realistically, $2700 a...
Although a potential first time home buyer, getting approved for a loan was the easy part. Finding a place is the hard part.

Realistically, $2700 a month still gives me plenty of breathing room. That’s approximately a 350K house.
There are no 250K listings unless I look into a trailer within a park. With that comes space rent which typically increases annually. As far as a duplex, I’m sure the neighbors won’t appreciate my headboard banging on the wall late at night and, the same goes for myself. Most duplexes are around 600K.
That’ll put me in over my head if I ever got laid off. Especially if the tenant isn’t good at paying rent on time and, I have to go through the whole eviction process. I don’t trust people enough to be willing to rely on them to pay my bills.

Right now, the listings I’ve seen for 350K are pretty far away and, add another 40 miles each way with my commute to work. I’m already in 2.5 hours of traffic each day. The additional 40 miles could add another 2.5 -3 hours going through downtown Seattle and, Tacoma. The houses are typically in need of immediate work.

The whole situation is a joke right now. Longer commute, come home angry and, have to work on a house later into the night or, stretch the finances so thin, you can’t afford two weeks off of it snows. Pick your poison. F*** all that.
mx617 wrote:
Curious how the math works down there. My principal residence has a $550k mortgage and the monthly payment is $2300 for a 25 year amortization. How...
Curious how the math works down there. My principal residence has a $550k mortgage and the monthly payment is $2300 for a 25 year amortization. How do you pay more for half as much house? What are interest rates like?
I suspect your taxes are not escrowed into your mortgage, and in his case when he's talking mortgage he's talking the whole shebang. Example - 250k 15 year at 2.375 = ~1665 Mo. Thats just your P&I. Then Pay your taxes annually when due. Generally most people dont go this route, they escrow home owners and property school taxes. In NY for example, 8k property taxes and another 800 for home owners, your payment would be 1665+735=2400$/mo if you are escrowed through your bank.

I dunno why anybody would escrow their taxes and home owners rather than just pay them directly on their own when they are due, unless you are just absolutely terrible with money and cant set it aside, or you have less than 20% down (often required in order to self escrow), although some credit unions offer programs to self escrow with 10% down. You are quite literally giving the bank a free year of property taxes and home owners to just sit on ( yes you get it back when you sell, but why let them sit on your capital), because you are going to pay monthly from the moment you move in. That cash could be sitting in a growth account or being stashed away for a rainy day fund.

If my napkin math is correct, to hit 2300$/mo P&I on a 25 year rate, with an original principle of 550k, your rate is in the ball park of like 1.9%, which I've never seen anything that low. Did you buy down or something?

I avoided buying for a while until I found something that I really liked, and got lucky closing at the start of covid before the market when crazy, but rates were down. Home owners, property taxes, and interest, cost MORE than what I was paying in rent. Could of continued renting, put the principle away, and some of the interest cost away, and been further ahead.
mx617
Posts
1622
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Trail, CA
4/27/2022 6:57am
dmm698 wrote:
I suspect your taxes are not escrowed into your mortgage, and in his case when he's talking mortgage he's talking the whole shebang. Example - 250k...
I suspect your taxes are not escrowed into your mortgage, and in his case when he's talking mortgage he's talking the whole shebang. Example - 250k 15 year at 2.375 = ~1665 Mo. Thats just your P&I. Then Pay your taxes annually when due. Generally most people dont go this route, they escrow home owners and property school taxes. In NY for example, 8k property taxes and another 800 for home owners, your payment would be 1665+735=2400$/mo if you are escrowed through your bank.

I dunno why anybody would escrow their taxes and home owners rather than just pay them directly on their own when they are due, unless you are just absolutely terrible with money and cant set it aside, or you have less than 20% down (often required in order to self escrow), although some credit unions offer programs to self escrow with 10% down. You are quite literally giving the bank a free year of property taxes and home owners to just sit on ( yes you get it back when you sell, but why let them sit on your capital), because you are going to pay monthly from the moment you move in. That cash could be sitting in a growth account or being stashed away for a rainy day fund.

If my napkin math is correct, to hit 2300$/mo P&I on a 25 year rate, with an original principle of 550k, your rate is in the ball park of like 1.9%, which I've never seen anything that low. Did you buy down or something?

I avoided buying for a while until I found something that I really liked, and got lucky closing at the start of covid before the market when crazy, but rates were down. Home owners, property taxes, and interest, cost MORE than what I was paying in rent. Could of continued renting, put the principle away, and some of the interest cost away, and been further ahead.
Thanks,that helps. I am in Canada so we lock our rates in for five years generally. So I am on a variable rate and yes it's 1.9%. Or at least it was before these last couple rate hikes. Probably 2.65% now. In 5 years we will renegotiate the terms.
1
Bob693
Posts
1409
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
4/27/2022 7:24am
I watch home prices all the time and can't believe how fast everything is going up. My home's appraised value is up 44% in the last 18 months. What I really don't understand is the new home prices. New homes are selling for $100 sq ft or more than homes built less than 10 years ago. Obviously people are buying them or they'd be coming down on their pricing but why spend so much more on a home that's only a few years newer? You can get a 3200 sq ft home built in 2014 for $475k or you can pay $780k for a new home the same size.
jndmx
Posts
9694
Joined
1/20/2008
Location
South Kingston, RI, USA
4/27/2022 7:38am
We got lucky and purchased in 2019.
My wife had sold her house previously so we had a pretty good chunk of money to put down, our mortgage payment is pretty low.
Our property value estimate went up $150K in 2.5 years....that's nuts.
peelout
Posts
18386
Joined
1/6/2011
Location
Ogden, UT, USA
4/27/2022 7:56am
Titan1 wrote:
The fundamentals of the mortgage lending industry are completely different than they were leading up to 08…back then, it was arms, interest only, negative amortization, $0...
The fundamentals of the mortgage lending industry are completely different than they were leading up to 08…back then, it was arms, interest only, negative amortization, $0 down, low into rates, hard prepayment penalties, no income, asset, employment verification….this doesn’t even get into the secondary market shenanigans…

Today? Predominately fixed rate fully amortized loans (nobody has been doing arms….though, as fixed rates keep going up the arms will likely become more appealing), No prepayment penalties, verified income, assets and employment. What this means is that if people can keep their jobs the majority of them SHOULD be able to afford their homes. And NONE of the secondary market shenanigans.

So…I won’t be so bold as to say there won’t be a correction, there will…how significant that correction is will be localized to each individual market…but to hold your breath for an 08 type of correction is a bit off the mark, and I think the chances of that are very very slim. Again, because the fundamentals of mortgage lending and the lack of secondary market shenanigans are completely different than 08.

I think prices will flatten and possibly decrease-how much they will decrease will depend on your specific market…for example, in Utah, fastest growing state in the nation, lowest unemployment, people moving here is creating a housing shortage, and that shortage is causing values to go up…where as in another place in the country that may not be the case.

So don’t look at National numbers, look at your market…is the population growing? What is the local unemployment rate? Those are great indicators of what your housing market will do over the next 12-24 months…
ToolMaker wrote:
I think I would have written most of what you wrote just like you did. This is no 2008, very different. But in addition I would...
I think I would have written most of what you wrote just like you did. This is no 2008, very different. But in addition I would add that in 08 institutions started buying up properties for cheap. Institutions now hold a significant portion of properties and they will not be selling. Their model is to make money renting. I am skeptical of a real estate correction because owners don't want to sell. There is just no inventory. Yes you have higher interest rates and so less people can afford what's available, so I think we'll see a flattening, but very skeptical we'll see any significant reduction in prices.
I would say get your financing in order and check zillow/redfin on a daily basis and if a deal comes up, you'll have very little time to act but if you have your ducks in row, you might get lucky.
TM
Titan1 wrote:
One thing I don’t understand is the institutions buying up a ton of properties…I’ve got a pretty decent pulse on the market here in Utah…and I...
One thing I don’t understand is the institutions buying up a ton of properties…I’ve got a pretty decent pulse on the market here in Utah…and I haven’t heard one time of a hedge fund or huge investor group buying up any properties…let alone a huge chunk of them.

Is it just not happening in Utah?
the Mt.Green, Petersen, Morgan areas and up through Kamas to Heber City i've heard of investment groups buying all the houses and renting them as VRBO/AirBNB etc in the winters for skiing. but that's just rumors i've heard.

i'm seeing about triple the amount of CA plates these days though.
KennyT
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4399
Joined
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Location
Vista, CA, USA
Fantasy
4/27/2022 8:01am Edited Date/Time 4/27/2022 8:02am
ToolMaker wrote:
I think I would have written most of what you wrote just like you did. This is no 2008, very different. But in addition I would...
I think I would have written most of what you wrote just like you did. This is no 2008, very different. But in addition I would add that in 08 institutions started buying up properties for cheap. Institutions now hold a significant portion of properties and they will not be selling. Their model is to make money renting. I am skeptical of a real estate correction because owners don't want to sell. There is just no inventory. Yes you have higher interest rates and so less people can afford what's available, so I think we'll see a flattening, but very skeptical we'll see any significant reduction in prices.
I would say get your financing in order and check zillow/redfin on a daily basis and if a deal comes up, you'll have very little time to act but if you have your ducks in row, you might get lucky.
TM
Chance1216 wrote:
After three months of checking Zillow, Redfin daily and, having a realtor searching for homes as well, it’s a test in patience for sure. Having everything...
After three months of checking Zillow, Redfin daily and, having a realtor searching for homes as well, it’s a test in patience for sure.

Having everything lined up took awhile but, to finally get to that point and, deal with this inflated market is a huge letdown.

What I’m not ready for is the 100K above asking price like most sellers are getting. I just can’t comprehend how this is the new normal.

Here’s a house that was listed for 410K in my neighborhood. It sold for 500K.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2305-SW-341st-Pl-Federal-Way-WA-9802…
Patience Damien. One of the worst financial decisions you can make is to purchase real estate at a peak. This madness will end and the market will stabilize and adjust. It’s not if, it is when, it will happen.

Don’t listen to the “Professionals” when it comes to a home purchase. Unless they are retired and no longer rely on fools paying inflated prices on property to pad their bank accounts. There are a group of people who are loving what is going on right now and they are banking huge amounts of money. Brokers/mortgage lenders are making a killing right now, why would any of them encourage you to “wait it out”? If everyone waited it out then they would go broke. It would be like me telling clients “don’t have me do your remodel right now, wait until material cost come down”. It would be a good way for me to go out of business.

Look at history. These spikes have happened before and they will happen again. What is a given is a drop after the spikes.

A good example is when I bought our current house n 2005.
We sold a pc of shit track home for 525K, and bought a fixer for $525K. The market was at a peak so buying at the peak did not hurt us as we sold one at a inflated price. Within 3 years our home value had fallen to under $300K. It took years for it to climb up to its original purchase price, now it has increased 40-50% over the last couple of years. I have no doubt it will adjust and be worth less in the coming years.
2
Titan1
Posts
9440
Joined
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Location
Lehi, UT, USA
4/27/2022 8:21am Edited Date/Time 4/27/2022 8:24am
ToolMaker wrote:
I think I would have written most of what you wrote just like you did. This is no 2008, very different. But in addition I would...
I think I would have written most of what you wrote just like you did. This is no 2008, very different. But in addition I would add that in 08 institutions started buying up properties for cheap. Institutions now hold a significant portion of properties and they will not be selling. Their model is to make money renting. I am skeptical of a real estate correction because owners don't want to sell. There is just no inventory. Yes you have higher interest rates and so less people can afford what's available, so I think we'll see a flattening, but very skeptical we'll see any significant reduction in prices.
I would say get your financing in order and check zillow/redfin on a daily basis and if a deal comes up, you'll have very little time to act but if you have your ducks in row, you might get lucky.
TM
Chance1216 wrote:
After three months of checking Zillow, Redfin daily and, having a realtor searching for homes as well, it’s a test in patience for sure. Having everything...
After three months of checking Zillow, Redfin daily and, having a realtor searching for homes as well, it’s a test in patience for sure.

Having everything lined up took awhile but, to finally get to that point and, deal with this inflated market is a huge letdown.

What I’m not ready for is the 100K above asking price like most sellers are getting. I just can’t comprehend how this is the new normal.

Here’s a house that was listed for 410K in my neighborhood. It sold for 500K.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2305-SW-341st-Pl-Federal-Way-WA-9802…
KennyT wrote:
Patience Damien. One of the worst financial decisions you can make is to purchase real estate at a peak. This madness will end and the market...
Patience Damien. One of the worst financial decisions you can make is to purchase real estate at a peak. This madness will end and the market will stabilize and adjust. It’s not if, it is when, it will happen.

Don’t listen to the “Professionals” when it comes to a home purchase. Unless they are retired and no longer rely on fools paying inflated prices on property to pad their bank accounts. There are a group of people who are loving what is going on right now and they are banking huge amounts of money. Brokers/mortgage lenders are making a killing right now, why would any of them encourage you to “wait it out”? If everyone waited it out then they would go broke. It would be like me telling clients “don’t have me do your remodel right now, wait until material cost come down”. It would be a good way for me to go out of business.

Look at history. These spikes have happened before and they will happen again. What is a given is a drop after the spikes.

A good example is when I bought our current house n 2005.
We sold a pc of shit track home for 525K, and bought a fixer for $525K. The market was at a peak so buying at the peak did not hurt us as we sold one at a inflated price. Within 3 years our home value had fallen to under $300K. It took years for it to climb up to its original purchase price, now it has increased 40-50% over the last couple of years. I have no doubt it will adjust and be worth less in the coming years.
“Look at history. These spikes have happened before and they will happen again. What is a given is a drop after the spikes. “

Yes…let’s look at history…home values have been going up (“spiking”) since the early 1950’s and have only dropped significantly ONE time…2008…when the lending and secondary market practices where absolutely insane…that means real estate survived the massive inflation in the 70’s and 80’s…the dot com bubble, 9/11 attacks, without losing significant value…and it wasn’t until the finance sector completely lost their minds and created an artificial bubble that values declined significantly.

Nothing in the finance sector today is even close to what was going on leading up to 08…in most markets values are caused by demand, which is causing housing shortages…I.e. not a bubble, but real demand is causing the prices to go up…the vast majority are buying in cash or financing on fixed rate, fully amortized loans and documenting their income, assets, and employment…which means they can actually afford their loans, and their loans don’t have interest only, low teaser rates, negative amortization, prepayment penalty, or adjustable rate features that will make the loans unaffordable in the future. So if people can keep their jobs by and large they will be able to afford their mortgages.

Anyway, I don’t have a crystal ball…nobody does…and yes, I’m a mortgage lender, but my business and income isn’t dependent on anyone on this board, so I have no reason to lie….but to say “spikes have happened before and they will happen again” is short sighted and factually incorrect. It has happened ONCE in history, and the circumstances that caused that are no longer at play.


Brad460
Posts
4498
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Location
Richfield, WI, USA
Fantasy
4/27/2022 8:30am Edited Date/Time 4/27/2022 8:32am
ns503 wrote:
Any of you guys looking for a house seriously check out building instead? I know building supplies have gone up too and maybe some are harder...
Any of you guys looking for a house seriously check out building instead? I know building supplies have gone up too and maybe some are harder to get with supply issues, but thinking not up as much as home prices? If you're some kind of trades guy or contractor, should also be an opportunity to put some sweat equity in. But then again, you also need the time for it too. That or buying a fixer upper. Seems to be a few of those on the market around here.
We got a quote for lumber about a year ago, it was three times what it would have been pre-covid. Our quote normally would have been...
We got a quote for lumber about a year ago, it was three times what it would have been pre-covid. Our quote normally would have been 30k and it went to 100k. Just for wood. All the other items to build were going to be the same. 2-3x the cost. We have a lot saved because we took advantage of the COVID market and sold it a nice profit. But we still don't want to bite the bullet yet. I'm pretty much waiting for my father-in-law to retire so hopefully he can start building our house. I have a lot of friends that can help, we're just waiting for now to see what happens. Everything is so crazy right now. Seems like it's all going to hell in a hand basket.
I’ve been watching lumber prices very close for about two years…I use Menard’s 1/2 OSB price as my gauge.

Last year around Oct lumber dropped to almost pre-covid prices- OSB was up to $48 a sheet last year then dropped to $20 a sheet in Oct ‘21. At that point I ordered all the wood and trusses for the detached garage I am building.

OSB then got back up to $48 a sheet this year, but is back down to $33. I don’t think prices will drop further right now.

I’ve been building the garage below myself since last Oct. The biggest price shock was the LP Smart siding. For pre-painted siding the cost was $10,000! I ended up buying the siding primed and am painting it myself. Saving me $6000!

I’ve also been waiting on Windows and the garage doors that I ordered in Feb. Windows eta is May 15. Garage doors eta is June 17.

All said and done this garage is going to cost me about $50k. The only thing I didn’t do was the concrete. I am guessing to have a builder put up this garage would be closer to $100k..It’s 36x50.

This will add a lot to our homes value- I keep reminding my wife it’s an investment. We have been paying as we go..


7
KennyT
Posts
4399
Joined
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Location
Vista, CA, USA
Fantasy
4/27/2022 8:39am
I disagree. I bought my first home at 18 in 1978 and have been buying/selling fixers ever since. My father/step mom were very successful realtors and are since retired. Home values have fluctuated throughout history and in the end they will usually always end up at the higher end of the scale than where they started. Unless you are in a area where nobody wants to live, then they will never increase in value.

Let me ask you something. If you were to have children looking to buy a home, would you encourage them to buy right now during a period in time where they will pay over asking price, be in bidding wars, most likely purchase something that will be worth less money in a matter of 1-2 years? Or would you encourage them to wait out the madness and buy a home when they can actually do it the right way. Or choose from a inventory, make a decision on which neighborhood they like and the amenities of the home they will be living in. To buy right now is foolish, you will be stuck in the first place where you get a accepted offer, even though it’s 80K over its value. People will figure it out, the market will soften, inventory will increase, and people like Damien can go buy a house that is worth what they are paying for it. It is discouraging to be upside down in a home and this country is going to have thousands of people in that predicament in the next few years. Then they will walk away, short sales will happen along with repos and there goes the peak.
1
TXDirt
Posts
7786
Joined
7/29/2015
Location
Plano, TX, USA
4/27/2022 8:47am
I think you will see “area” fluctuations before a full scale housing market crash. Are people moving in or out of your area/state?

Texas is booming and I don’t think will be as affected by any price fluctuations as other areas of the country could be.
Zycki11
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7856
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Edwardsville, IL, USA
4/27/2022 9:18am Edited Date/Time 4/27/2022 9:20am
TXDirt wrote:
I think you will see “area” fluctuations before a full scale housing market crash. Are people moving in or out of your area/state? Texas is booming...
I think you will see “area” fluctuations before a full scale housing market crash. Are people moving in or out of your area/state?

Texas is booming and I don’t think will be as affected by any price fluctuations as other areas of the country could be.
Texas is no different. Super inflated.... Housing market is inflated just like the market on injected money by the Fed. Banks loaned said money out to people with shit credit just like 2008. Now you have supply issues and inflated prices on all products to boot.

First step: 30 year fixed mortgage rates rise(check).
Second Step: Homes go for sale due to cost
Third step: Prices start to drop as supply of homes increase and demand goes down
Fourth Step: Rich start buying properties
Fifth Step: Regular Joes jump back in to buy homes
Sixth Step: Rates finally start to drop back down
Titan1
Posts
9440
Joined
2/3/2010
Location
Lehi, UT, USA
4/27/2022 9:20am Edited Date/Time 4/27/2022 9:23am
KennyT wrote:
I disagree. I bought my first home at 18 in 1978 and have been buying/selling fixers ever since. My father/step mom were very successful realtors and...
I disagree. I bought my first home at 18 in 1978 and have been buying/selling fixers ever since. My father/step mom were very successful realtors and are since retired. Home values have fluctuated throughout history and in the end they will usually always end up at the higher end of the scale than where they started. Unless you are in a area where nobody wants to live, then they will never increase in value.

Let me ask you something. If you were to have children looking to buy a home, would you encourage them to buy right now during a period in time where they will pay over asking price, be in bidding wars, most likely purchase something that will be worth less money in a matter of 1-2 years? Or would you encourage them to wait out the madness and buy a home when they can actually do it the right way. Or choose from a inventory, make a decision on which neighborhood they like and the amenities of the home they will be living in. To buy right now is foolish, you will be stuck in the first place where you get a accepted offer, even though it’s 80K over its value. People will figure it out, the market will soften, inventory will increase, and people like Damien can go buy a house that is worth what they are paying for it. It is discouraging to be upside down in a home and this country is going to have thousands of people in that predicament in the next few years. Then they will walk away, short sales will happen along with repos and there goes the peak.
I'd have no problem at all telling my kids to buy a house right now, as long as they can afford the payments comfortably. I wouldn't encourage anyone ever to get into a house and be house poor. If they are moving in a year or two, I'd tell them the same thing I tell every one of my clients, no matter what the market is going...go rent...

Like you send, Home values will always end up higher than where they are today (big picture, they will keep on "spiking")...so there is no reason to panic if values drop...just live in your house, make your payments, and don't worry about the value. I bought in 05...I was upside down from about 09-13...I didn't freak out, I just lived in my house...I sold it in 2017 for more than I paid in 05.

The reason people walked away from homes during the 08 bust was largely because they couldn't afford their payments (or saw the writing on the wall and knew once their loan recasts they couldn't afford the payment) because they didn't document their income or assets or employment and financed on an ARM, with I/O or NegAm and those loans began recasting...they couldn't sell because they were upside-down so they walked away (which exasperated the problem and accelerated depreciation)...

Today people are financing on fixed rate full AM loans where they documented their income and employment (they can afford their loans)-so so so many people are currently financed under 3% on their fixed rate loans, no smart person will walk away from that to rent-so if they find themselves upside down, WAY more homeowners (compared to 08) will just live in their homes make their payments, and in a few years they won't be upside down any more.

Outside of appreciation rates, NOTHING today is like it was leading up to 08. (and 08 is the only real "crash" in the past 70 years-since the great depression.)

Correction? Probably to Very Likely (due largely to rising interest rates)...Crash? Probably not to very unlikely (with the exception of small local markets with population decline and rising unemployment...baring another full on economic depression).

Local markets are far more important than national numbers...Utah is one of the fastest growing states in the nation with one of the lowest unemployment rates...there is a drastic housing shortage here...as long as people keep moving here, and can keep their jobs, home values will keep going up...they won't go up 20%/year (maybe they only go up 3%-5%/year...if rates keep going up, they might even flatten, or possibly even drop a percent or two)...but they aren't going to "crash" unless those two things (population growth and unemployment rate) start to change.

If you live in a market with a stagnant population growth and high/rising unemployment...then their housing market could very well crash.

If you can afford the payment on the house you want (on a fixed rate, fully amortized mortgage)...and are going to be in the home for a while...buy a house. Live in that house. Take care of that house. The value doesn't matter until you needed to sell it.

And if when you have you sell your home to relocate, you are upside down, rent it (because if values are falling their is more renters than ever!). Let someone else pay that mortgage until you aren't upside down, and eventually you won't be upside down any more. No reason to panic...
1
RichieW13
Posts
2493
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Thousand Oaks, CA, USA
4/27/2022 10:15am
Titan1 wrote:
One thing I don’t understand is the institutions buying up a ton of properties…I’ve got a pretty decent pulse on the market here in Utah…and I...
One thing I don’t understand is the institutions buying up a ton of properties…I’ve got a pretty decent pulse on the market here in Utah…and I haven’t heard one time of a hedge fund or huge investor group buying up any properties…let alone a huge chunk of them.

Is it just not happening in Utah?
This is my question as well. I often see people online claiming that corporations and "the Chinese" are buying all the houses. But I have never seen any legitimate data on this.

I'm not in the housing business, but I am not aware of anyone who has ever sold a house to a corporation, or rented a house from a corporation, etc.

I would love to see actual data that might show the impact of corporations on housing prices.
Brad460
Posts
4498
Joined
5/15/2012
Location
Richfield, WI, USA
Fantasy
4/27/2022 10:33am
RichieW13 wrote:
This is my question as well. I often see people online claiming that corporations and "the Chinese" are buying all the houses. But I have never...
This is my question as well. I often see people online claiming that corporations and "the Chinese" are buying all the houses. But I have never seen any legitimate data on this.

I'm not in the housing business, but I am not aware of anyone who has ever sold a house to a corporation, or rented a house from a corporation, etc.

I would love to see actual data that might show the impact of corporations on housing prices.
Our previous home was in a newer neighborhood and several of the newer homes were bought by a company called American Homes 4 Rent. Looking at their website as of 2019 they owned 52k+ homes.

I looked up one specific house and it shows they still own it. I’ll always remember that house because it was right behind ours and the first year it was unoccupied and the grass was never cut..


1
Team Ideal
Posts
1171
Joined
9/22/2008
Location
Ste. Marie, IL, USA
4/27/2022 10:41am
Man, some of the numbers you guys a talking seems crazy to me. I thought stuff here was going through the roof but nothing like that. I'm in the sticks in SE IL and while our state sucks political wise our part of the state is great to live in.

We started building last Sept and are hopefully within a week or two of moving in. We got really lucky on lumber prices but took a pretty good hit on metal. We also bought a lot of our stuff right before things got crazy so we got lucky there too. We have had a few things that we have had to wait on. Overhead doors, regular doors and windows took longer than they said they would. Cabinet hardware was virtually none existent for a few months and we're still waiting on some easy close drawer systems and tile, tile has been moved back on us three times, but overall things went pretty well.

My best advice would be to keep saving as much as you can because like others I believe within a couple years there's going to be quite a few people looking to downsize and get out from under some of these crazy numbers.

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