450s are worthless in SX

soggy
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soggy 3/2/2022 10:17am
3/2/2022 10:17am
Alex814 wrote:
Definitely, the 450s take inside lines and dump the clutch on exit.
Kyle978 wrote:
It's constant modulation of the clutch to manipulate the power delivery/traction when exiting corners, but I'm sure that's what you meant.
And very rider specific. Kenny is an example of a guy that isn’t using clutch to modulate as much as someone like Tomac
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RaceFace58
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RaceFace58 3/2/2022 10:20am
3/2/2022 10:20am
rohleder644 wrote:
I don’t think OP is suggesting a 350 is on an even playing field with a 450. I think he’s saying a 450 is fuckin stupid...
I don’t think OP is suggesting a 350 is on an even playing field with a 450. I think he’s saying a 450 is fuckin stupid for SX. These bikes need a whopping 10 feet of run-up to clear a triple. At what point did we decide the best thing for the sport was to put these guys on bikes that have twice the torque/hp necessary to ride these tracks? I can fuckin shred a pitbike track on my 300, but it seems a bit silly, no? If we’re all on 300’s it’s fair. Fair doesn’t make it any less unnecessary. And 450’s are definitely a more cost effective option for a privateer than a 250 or 2 strokes really. But the series hasn’t exactly been tailored to the affordability for the privateers. If we’re not going back to 2 strokes, why not a stock and mod 250 class? This obviously isn’t going to happen, but that doesn’t make it less of a valid discussion.
soggy wrote:
Blame the AMA. No one made this decision except for them. In 1999 no one thought 4 strokes would be where they are today.
So you think the AMA just decided everyone from now on will be on 4-strokes and the whole world listened? I guess you’ll believe the AMA will be the driving force behind electric bikes too.
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soggy
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soggy 3/2/2022 11:21am
3/2/2022 11:21am
rohleder644 wrote:
I don’t think OP is suggesting a 350 is on an even playing field with a 450. I think he’s saying a 450 is fuckin stupid...
I don’t think OP is suggesting a 350 is on an even playing field with a 450. I think he’s saying a 450 is fuckin stupid for SX. These bikes need a whopping 10 feet of run-up to clear a triple. At what point did we decide the best thing for the sport was to put these guys on bikes that have twice the torque/hp necessary to ride these tracks? I can fuckin shred a pitbike track on my 300, but it seems a bit silly, no? If we’re all on 300’s it’s fair. Fair doesn’t make it any less unnecessary. And 450’s are definitely a more cost effective option for a privateer than a 250 or 2 strokes really. But the series hasn’t exactly been tailored to the affordability for the privateers. If we’re not going back to 2 strokes, why not a stock and mod 250 class? This obviously isn’t going to happen, but that doesn’t make it less of a valid discussion.
soggy wrote:
Blame the AMA. No one made this decision except for them. In 1999 no one thought 4 strokes would be where they are today.
RaceFace58 wrote:
So you think the AMA just decided everyone from now on will be on 4-strokes and the whole world listened? I guess you’ll believe the AMA...
So you think the AMA just decided everyone from now on will be on 4-strokes and the whole world listened? I guess you’ll believe the AMA will be the driving force behind electric bikes too.
It was the ama that set the displacement rule I believe. In a few short years it became obvious 2 stroke 250’s weren’t in the same stratosphere as 450’s as far as power and rideability. So while the ama may not have intended it to turn out the way it did they are the ones that made the rule.
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Rosso391 3/2/2022 11:25am
3/2/2022 11:25am
soggy wrote:
It was the ama that set the displacement rule I believe. In a few short years it became obvious 2 stroke 250’s weren’t in the same...
It was the ama that set the displacement rule I believe. In a few short years it became obvious 2 stroke 250’s weren’t in the same stratosphere as 450’s as far as power and rideability. So while the ama may not have intended it to turn out the way it did they are the ones that made the rule.
The AMA set the rules and no one even cared about the 250 class at the time. It hit the 125 class hard in 2002 with Yamaha and then snowballed into the 250 class 4 years later with all brands.
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Leave Us To
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Leave Us To 3/2/2022 11:25am
3/2/2022 11:25am
soggy wrote:
Were 450’s a mistake ? Yes. Are we too far down the rabbit hole to go back now. Also yes. I think the biggest drawback is...
Were 450’s a mistake ? Yes. Are we too far down the rabbit hole to go back now. Also yes.

I think the biggest drawback is how much they beat up the tracks. Back in the two stroke days the tracks stayed in much better shape imo.
Almost everything with the move to four strokes was a mistake. Displacement disparities, noise issues and increased costs have kept me a two stroke fan. Racing in SX would be so much better without 450s and no, quad sections aren't justifications why we need 450s.


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soggy
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soggy 3/2/2022 11:28am
3/2/2022 11:28am
soggy wrote:
It was the ama that set the displacement rule I believe. In a few short years it became obvious 2 stroke 250’s weren’t in the same...
It was the ama that set the displacement rule I believe. In a few short years it became obvious 2 stroke 250’s weren’t in the same stratosphere as 450’s as far as power and rideability. So while the ama may not have intended it to turn out the way it did they are the ones that made the rule.
Rosso391 wrote:
The AMA set the rules and no one even cared about the 250 class at the time. It hit the 125 class hard in 2002 with...
The AMA set the rules and no one even cared about the 250 class at the time. It hit the 125 class hard in 2002 with Yamaha and then snowballed into the 250 class 4 years later with all brands.
It was pretty obvious when Henry won the championship on the Yamaha OW in 1999 that the 450 was a superior machine. But yes it became obvious in the 125 class as well. Unless your name was Bubba.
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Leave Us To
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Leave Us To 3/2/2022 11:28am
3/2/2022 11:28am
soggy wrote:
It was the ama that set the displacement rule I believe. In a few short years it became obvious 2 stroke 250’s weren’t in the same...
It was the ama that set the displacement rule I believe. In a few short years it became obvious 2 stroke 250’s weren’t in the same stratosphere as 450’s as far as power and rideability. So while the ama may not have intended it to turn out the way it did they are the ones that made the rule.
Worldwide market for MX and off road machines is larger than US market so have to assume the FIM was involved in the displacement decision.
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soggy 3/2/2022 11:32am
3/2/2022 11:32am
soggy wrote:
It was the ama that set the displacement rule I believe. In a few short years it became obvious 2 stroke 250’s weren’t in the same...
It was the ama that set the displacement rule I believe. In a few short years it became obvious 2 stroke 250’s weren’t in the same stratosphere as 450’s as far as power and rideability. So while the ama may not have intended it to turn out the way it did they are the ones that made the rule.
Leave Us To wrote:
Worldwide market for MX and off road machines is larger than US market so have to assume the FIM was involved in the displacement decision.
Could be, but I think Yamaha developed the 450 in the US. Not sure when and or how FIM rules changed. They may have just followed the AMA’s lead.

I wouldn’t discount Honda’s influence on it either because they never wanted to make 2 strokes to begin with. But in the ended it was the AMA’s decision and they said a 450 4 stroke is equal to a 250 2 st.
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Leave Us To 3/2/2022 11:32am
3/2/2022 11:32am Edited Date/Time 3/2/2022 11:34am
soggy wrote:
It was pretty obvious when Henry won the championship on the Yamaha OW in 1999 that the 450 was a superior machine. But yes it became...
It was pretty obvious when Henry won the championship on the Yamaha OW in 1999 that the 450 was a superior machine. But yes it became obvious in the 125 class as well. Unless your name was Bubba.
It was actually 1998 and Henry was on the original Yamaha 400. 400cc four stroke it too much of an advantage but would have helped a little if they'd capped it at 400cc but nooooooo.

Doug Dubach was the development rider for the Yamaha 400.
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RaceFace58 3/2/2022 11:37am
3/2/2022 11:37am
soggy wrote:
Blame the AMA. No one made this decision except for them. In 1999 no one thought 4 strokes would be where they are today.
RaceFace58 wrote:
So you think the AMA just decided everyone from now on will be on 4-strokes and the whole world listened? I guess you’ll believe the AMA...
So you think the AMA just decided everyone from now on will be on 4-strokes and the whole world listened? I guess you’ll believe the AMA will be the driving force behind electric bikes too.
soggy wrote:
It was the ama that set the displacement rule I believe. In a few short years it became obvious 2 stroke 250’s weren’t in the same...
It was the ama that set the displacement rule I believe. In a few short years it became obvious 2 stroke 250’s weren’t in the same stratosphere as 450’s as far as power and rideability. So while the ama may not have intended it to turn out the way it did they are the ones that made the rule.
There’s a consortium of involvement about displacement or any other major rule changes. But I asked if you thought the AMA just decided that everyone will be on 4-strokes just for the hell of it. The EPA was threatening the existence of MX bikes based on their emissions. The manufacturers and sanctioning bodies came together to figure out how to beat the EPA’s impending restrictions. Just so you know the manufacturers dictate to the AMA, not the other way around. When they all didn’t want to make 500s anymore what happened to the 500 class?
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soggy
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soggy 3/2/2022 11:37am
3/2/2022 11:37am
soggy wrote:
It was pretty obvious when Henry won the championship on the Yamaha OW in 1999 that the 450 was a superior machine. But yes it became...
It was pretty obvious when Henry won the championship on the Yamaha OW in 1999 that the 450 was a superior machine. But yes it became obvious in the 125 class as well. Unless your name was Bubba.
Leave Us To wrote:
It was actually 1998 and Henry was on the original Yamaha 400. 400cc four stroke it too much of an advantage but would have helped a...
It was actually 1998 and Henry was on the original Yamaha 400. 400cc four stroke it too much of an advantage but would have helped a little if they'd capped it at 400cc but nooooooo.

Doug Dubach was the development rider for the Yamaha 400.
Yes, thank you for the correction.
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Johnny Ringo 3/2/2022 11:41am
3/2/2022 11:41am
Glen Helen 2001. Should have made changes to the rules Monday morning.
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Leave Us To 3/2/2022 11:48am
3/2/2022 11:48am
Johnny Ringo wrote:
Glen Helen 2001. Should have made changes to the rules Monday morning. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/03/02/536221/s1200_52BDBA37_CC70_422D_93F2_A1C59D35F135.jpg[/img]
Glen Helen 2001. Should have made changes to the rules Monday morning.
Yamaha of Troy. I loved those 5th Dragon Yamahas
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Johnny Ringo 3/2/2022 11:56am
3/2/2022 11:56am
Johnny Ringo wrote:
Glen Helen 2001. Should have made changes to the rules Monday morning. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/03/02/536221/s1200_52BDBA37_CC70_422D_93F2_A1C59D35F135.jpg[/img]
Glen Helen 2001. Should have made changes to the rules Monday morning.
Leave Us To wrote:
Yamaha of Troy. I loved those 5th Dragon Yamahas
Don’t forget MotoXXX (ward) and Motoworld (Huffman) in there
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Phillip_Lamb 3/2/2022 12:07pm
3/2/2022 12:07pm
Should they race something different than a 450 is SX? Yes, 250f, 250T, 350...

will all the manufacturers agree to do away with their open class bikes? nope

the 450 is every ones best selling model but they would all have to collectively agree to build something smaller, and the manufacturers are given a lot of weight in these decisions since it affects their business, and the racing only exists if they build bikes.

the only way it changes, is if their is a massive shift in what people are buying, without concern to what the pros ride, but from what i know there has never been a major shift without a change at the top
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zehn
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zehn 3/2/2022 12:26pm
3/2/2022 12:26pm
OP is worthless and makes the dumbest posts. Isn't this your alt account after you got caught ripping people off on your main?
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Thisusernameisavailable 3/2/2022 12:39pm
3/2/2022 12:39pm
Its a spectacle- Highly skilled athletes, riding hugely powerful machines, around super technical and dangerous terrain.

I like it.

What's to be gained by pussifying it?

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RaceFace58 3/2/2022 12:53pm
3/2/2022 12:53pm
The funny part about this thread is the only thing that’s actually changing is that they’ll be racing electric bikes. In less than 15 years. I can’t stand that being the case but the manufacturers are already on their way. When Kawasaki says their entire lineup will be battery powered by 2025, that means no MX bikes going boom or brap. Then we can argue about what kilowatt is useless in SX.
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neysbo 3/2/2022 12:56pm
3/2/2022 12:56pm
Takes way more skill to ride a 450 that fast and throttle control. Just think if Jett was on a 450 last weekend he would have wiped out himself and half the field.
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Magoofan 3/2/2022 1:15pm
3/2/2022 1:15pm
TeamGreen wrote:
What's the solution...in a practical sense, 350s?
2-Strokes....

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soggy
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soggy 3/2/2022 1:33pm
3/2/2022 1:33pm
Thisusernameisavailable wrote:
Its a spectacle- Highly skilled athletes, riding hugely powerful machines, around super technical and dangerous terrain.

I like it.

What's to be gained by pussifying it?

You calling the 250 riders pussies?
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Thisusernameisavailable 3/2/2022 1:44pm
3/2/2022 1:44pm
Thisusernameisavailable wrote:
Its a spectacle- Highly skilled athletes, riding hugely powerful machines, around super technical and dangerous terrain.

I like it.

What's to be gained by pussifying it?

soggy wrote:
You calling the 250 riders pussies?
There’s a reason the premier class uses the most powerful bikes, has the longest races, carries the highest prestige & pays out the most in winnings & salaries.
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soggy 3/2/2022 1:48pm
3/2/2022 1:48pm
Thisusernameisavailable wrote:
There’s a reason the premier class uses the most powerful bikes, has the longest races, carries the highest prestige & pays out the most in winnings...
There’s a reason the premier class uses the most powerful bikes, has the longest races, carries the highest prestige & pays out the most in winnings & salaries.
Was meant to come off in jest. Obviously the riders in 250 are badass too
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Joey_Bridges 3/2/2022 2:00pm
3/2/2022 2:00pm
RaceFace58 wrote:
There’s a consortium of involvement about displacement or any other major rule changes. But I asked if you thought the AMA just decided that everyone will...
There’s a consortium of involvement about displacement or any other major rule changes. But I asked if you thought the AMA just decided that everyone will be on 4-strokes just for the hell of it. The EPA was threatening the existence of MX bikes based on their emissions. The manufacturers and sanctioning bodies came together to figure out how to beat the EPA’s impending restrictions. Just so you know the manufacturers dictate to the AMA, not the other way around. When they all didn’t want to make 500s anymore what happened to the 500 class?
Bingo, it was indeed the EPA that forced the push to four strokes.
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Titan1 3/2/2022 2:04pm
3/2/2022 2:04pm
neysbo wrote:
Takes way more skill to ride a 450 that fast and throttle control. Just think if Jett was on a 450 last weekend he would have...
Takes way more skill to ride a 450 that fast and throttle control. Just think if Jett was on a 450 last weekend he would have wiped out himself and half the field.
Hold up...are 450's easy to ride and take no skill...or are they hard to ride? Seems a lot of people believe they are easy to ride...and a lot of people believe they are hard to ride...I"ve always wondered which it is?

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Titan1 3/2/2022 2:11pm
3/2/2022 2:11pm Edited Date/Time 3/3/2022 11:05am
When I watch those helmet cam videos of pro's on a supercross track...I see it as an amazing display of skill in that they can keep their machine right in the meat of the power, at those speeds, on those tracks. It's crazy.

It's a thing of beauty (and a different, but no less technical, skill set) to watch an insanely talented rider, ride a 450 around a gear high, letting the torque do its thing, and flying around the track (even though if you just listened to the bike you'd think the rider is hardly moving). So I think some people assume the lack of aggressive throttle manipulation, and low RPM's equal lack of required talent or skill or effort on the part of the rider...and that couldn't be further from the truth.

I say keep the 450's...if that's what riders want to ride, and manufacturers want to manufacture, and consumers want to consume, and the rules allow.

Though I will say the premier class should be any displacement, and 2 stroke or 4 stroke...though I think we'd still see a gate of 450's even in supercross.
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soggy
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soggy 3/2/2022 2:12pm
3/2/2022 2:12pm
RaceFace58 wrote:
There’s a consortium of involvement about displacement or any other major rule changes. But I asked if you thought the AMA just decided that everyone will...
There’s a consortium of involvement about displacement or any other major rule changes. But I asked if you thought the AMA just decided that everyone will be on 4-strokes just for the hell of it. The EPA was threatening the existence of MX bikes based on their emissions. The manufacturers and sanctioning bodies came together to figure out how to beat the EPA’s impending restrictions. Just so you know the manufacturers dictate to the AMA, not the other way around. When they all didn’t want to make 500s anymore what happened to the 500 class?
Joey_Bridges wrote:
Bingo, it was indeed the EPA that forced the push to four strokes.
Fair enough. Unlike most on this forum I’m willing to change my mind and admit when I’m wrong. I do think it was the AMA that said 450 4 st could compete against 250 2 st instead of creating an open class again.

The EPA stuff I hadn’t really heard and considering you can still race a two stroke I’m not sure how much teeth they had.
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INeedaNewUsername 3/2/2022 2:14pm
3/2/2022 2:14pm
neysbo wrote:
Takes way more skill to ride a 450 that fast and throttle control. Just think if Jett was on a 450 last weekend he would have...
Takes way more skill to ride a 450 that fast and throttle control. Just think if Jett was on a 450 last weekend he would have wiped out himself and half the field.
Titan1 wrote:
Hold up...are 450's easy to ride and take no skill...or are they hard to ride? Seems a lot of people believe they are easy to ride...and...
Hold up...are 450's easy to ride and take no skill...or are they hard to ride? Seems a lot of people believe they are easy to ride...and a lot of people believe they are hard to ride...I"ve always wondered which it is?

Yes, no, maybe and depends
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TannerMxer 3/2/2022 2:15pm
3/2/2022 2:15pm
Rosso391 wrote:
Listen to any GoPro video of a 450 rider. Its embarrassing the amount of throttle they don't need to use to jump half the obstacles. 50HP...
Listen to any GoPro video of a 450 rider. Its embarrassing the amount of throttle they don't need to use to jump half the obstacles. 50HP is about the threshold for a bike to be fast yet rideable. OMG a 250 2-Stroke has that much hp..weird. Anyways, what's your guy's thoughts. Should they have 450's in SX at all?
I honestly think supercross should be a 125cc 2-stroke class and a 250cc 4-stroke class.

When the 250f's are doing that table over single to table, yeah, a 450 is way too much bike for indoors.

SX:
125cc 2-stroke regional class (like today)
250 cc 4-stroke premier class

MX
250 4-stroke class
450 4-stroke class

Yeah, I know the logistics of this is a shit show for teams, but a 450 is just way too much indoors.
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soggy 3/2/2022 2:15pm
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INeedaNewUsername wrote:
Yes, no, maybe and depends
Dude how many accounts do you have.

Post a reply to: 450s are worthless in SX