Homo Rule- 7200 production bikes for 500 pro riders?

80sMXbadboy
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80sMXbadboy 8/22/2021 10:33am
8/22/2021 10:33am
Johnny Depp wrote:
Curious question? When was the last time a bike was torn down over a production rule protest? Ever?
I'd say since before the monstrous sponsor days.
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APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 8/22/2021 11:45am
8/22/2021 11:45am
Johnny Depp wrote:
Curious question? When was the last time a bike was torn down over a production rule protest? Ever?
Someone protested a Honda swingarm several years ago, but I think that mostly even the most basic of tech inspections would cull out egregious violations.

If I remember it correctly, the swingarm protest was a real clusterphuck because the sanctioning body didn’t have a ‘sample’ on hand to compare with the alleged illegal part. I think that they ended up paying a privateer to strip his down for them to compare it to. It ‘passed’, but if they hadn’t have matched they would have had a real legal issue on their hands to try to enforce a penalty by using an uncontrolled part as their reference tool.

I’d like to believe that the top teams do at least a fair job of keeping each other ‘relatively honest’ for the most part. I’d be surprised if there weren’t people from those teams at least trying to look and photograph to detect any big, crazy variations.

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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/22/2021 2:36pm
8/22/2021 2:36pm Edited Date/Time 8/22/2021 2:37pm
A few companies that might be willing (or would have) to race if the rules were loosened up. Of course they would need proper equipment. With 400 unit minimum's it's not going to happen, just like the last 30 years.























































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LungButter
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LungButter 8/23/2021 10:36am
8/23/2021 10:36am
If a company can't even produce 400 bikes to sell, why do they need to race at the top level of the sport?

What the hell good is it gonna do the consumer if Pros are racing bikes they can't buy.

I'm sorry your beloved Beta can't cut the mustard to race in the US but we don't need to change the rules just so they can enter AMA Pro races.
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/23/2021 11:10am
8/23/2021 11:10am
LungButter wrote:
If a company can't even produce 400 bikes to sell, why do they need to race at the top level of the sport? What the hell...
If a company can't even produce 400 bikes to sell, why do they need to race at the top level of the sport?

What the hell good is it gonna do the consumer if Pros are racing bikes they can't buy.

I'm sorry your beloved Beta can't cut the mustard to race in the US but we don't need to change the rules just so they can enter AMA Pro races.
Let's say Triumph builds 400/800 bikes and they suck and don't sell, then they quit because it's too expensive to try again with another 400/800. Same for Beta or anyone. The Factory Edition KTM/Husky's are all over the country sitting with big fat discounts.
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LungButter
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LungButter 8/23/2021 11:14am
8/23/2021 11:14am
LungButter wrote:
If a company can't even produce 400 bikes to sell, why do they need to race at the top level of the sport? What the hell...
If a company can't even produce 400 bikes to sell, why do they need to race at the top level of the sport?

What the hell good is it gonna do the consumer if Pros are racing bikes they can't buy.

I'm sorry your beloved Beta can't cut the mustard to race in the US but we don't need to change the rules just so they can enter AMA Pro races.
Johnny Depp wrote:
Let's say Triumph builds 400/800 bikes and they suck and don't sell, then they quit because it's too expensive to try again with another 400/800. Same...
Let's say Triumph builds 400/800 bikes and they suck and don't sell, then they quit because it's too expensive to try again with another 400/800. Same for Beta or anyone. The Factory Edition KTM/Husky's are all over the country sitting with big fat discounts.
So the only way to find out if a bike sucks is to race it in Pro Motocross/Supercross?

Can't they just....ya know.... hire some test riders like everyone else?

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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/23/2021 11:23am
8/23/2021 11:23am Edited Date/Time 8/23/2021 11:23am
LungButter wrote:
If a company can't even produce 400 bikes to sell, why do they need to race at the top level of the sport? What the hell...
If a company can't even produce 400 bikes to sell, why do they need to race at the top level of the sport?

What the hell good is it gonna do the consumer if Pros are racing bikes they can't buy.

I'm sorry your beloved Beta can't cut the mustard to race in the US but we don't need to change the rules just so they can enter AMA Pro races.
Johnny Depp wrote:
Let's say Triumph builds 400/800 bikes and they suck and don't sell, then they quit because it's too expensive to try again with another 400/800. Same...
Let's say Triumph builds 400/800 bikes and they suck and don't sell, then they quit because it's too expensive to try again with another 400/800. Same for Beta or anyone. The Factory Edition KTM/Husky's are all over the country sitting with big fat discounts.
LungButter wrote:
So the only way to find out if a bike sucks is to race it in Pro Motocross/Supercross? Can't they just....ya know.... hire some test riders...
So the only way to find out if a bike sucks is to race it in Pro Motocross/Supercross?

Can't they just....ya know.... hire some test riders like everyone else?

Honda raced the new model for 2 years (and 2 championships) while developing it and before it was released for sale. That is how everybody else tests bikes too. They hired a pretty good test rider.Smile
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/23/2021 1:04pm
8/23/2021 1:04pm
Where is all the crying that Honda used their big money to build a bike no one else could ride to win World Championships. The sky didn't fall.
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early
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early 8/23/2021 1:10pm
8/23/2021 1:10pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
Where is all the crying that Honda used their big money to build a bike no one else could ride to win World Championships. The sky...
Where is all the crying that Honda used their big money to build a bike no one else could ride to win World Championships. The sky didn't fall.
When was the last time a non-factory bike won an MXGP race? AFT super twins class has become the Indian Cup aside from a few rides by JD Beech, so they created the production twins class.
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LungButter
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LungButter 8/23/2021 1:17pm
8/23/2021 1:17pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
Where is all the crying that Honda used their big money to build a bike no one else could ride to win World Championships. The sky...
Where is all the crying that Honda used their big money to build a bike no one else could ride to win World Championships. The sky didn't fall.
Then all these manufacturers that you claim are being held down by the rules of AMA Pro Racing can go race in the World Championship.

Produce bikes for the public or stay in the Minor Leagues where you belong....
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/23/2021 1:19pm
8/23/2021 1:19pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
Where is all the crying that Honda used their big money to build a bike no one else could ride to win World Championships. The sky...
Where is all the crying that Honda used their big money to build a bike no one else could ride to win World Championships. The sky didn't fall.
early wrote:
When was the last time a non-factory bike won an MXGP race? AFT super twins class has become the Indian Cup aside from a few rides...
When was the last time a non-factory bike won an MXGP race? AFT super twins class has become the Indian Cup aside from a few rides by JD Beech, so they created the production twins class.
I don't know, good question for one of the Euro's. Are you implying they shouldn't be allowed since they never won? That's a really high barrier to entry.
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/23/2021 1:22pm
8/23/2021 1:22pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
Where is all the crying that Honda used their big money to build a bike no one else could ride to win World Championships. The sky...
Where is all the crying that Honda used their big money to build a bike no one else could ride to win World Championships. The sky didn't fall.
LungButter wrote:
Then all these manufacturers that you claim are being held down by the rules of AMA Pro Racing can go race in the World Championship. Produce...
Then all these manufacturers that you claim are being held down by the rules of AMA Pro Racing can go race in the World Championship.

Produce bikes for the public or stay in the Minor Leagues where you belong....
They do, Fantic, Beta, TM Aprilia, and more have dabbled. So you are OK with 400 bike minimums? 7200 bikes for 500 riders?
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LungButter
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LungButter 8/23/2021 1:36pm
8/23/2021 1:36pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
They do, Fantic, Beta, TM Aprilia, and more have dabbled. So you are OK with 400 bike minimums? 7200 bikes for 500 riders?
How are the 7,200 bikes for 500 riders?

The 7,200 bikes are for the public to buy.

You've tried every way possible to make this argument work, bottom line is if Beta wants to race here at the top level they need to make a bike worthy of the rest of us buying. I'm sorry that's such a bummer for you. Tongue
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/23/2021 1:42pm
8/23/2021 1:42pm Edited Date/Time 8/25/2021 11:33am
Johnny Depp wrote:
They do, Fantic, Beta, TM Aprilia, and more have dabbled. So you are OK with 400 bike minimums? 7200 bikes for 500 riders?
LungButter wrote:
How are the 7,200 bikes for 500 riders? The 7,200 bikes are for the public to buy. You've tried every way possible to make this argument...
How are the 7,200 bikes for 500 riders?

The 7,200 bikes are for the public to buy.

You've tried every way possible to make this argument work, bottom line is if Beta wants to race here at the top level they need to make a bike worthy of the rest of us buying. I'm sorry that's such a bummer for you. Tongue
I enjoy the back and forth with you, but we both know Beta is fully committed. Triumph claims to be. It is a huge barrier to entry designed to keep competition out of the big 4's thin japanese hair.

When is the last time a new manufacturer met the AMA minimums? And no, different color KTM's don't count.

The premise of the rule is to make fair competition and discourage advanced development. The amount of bikes required under the rules goes way way way beyond what could ever be needed for pro racing.
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early
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early 8/23/2021 1:42pm
8/23/2021 1:42pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
I don't know, good question for one of the Euro's. Are you implying they shouldn't be allowed since they never won? That's a really high barrier...
I don't know, good question for one of the Euro's. Are you implying they shouldn't be allowed since they never won? That's a really high barrier to entry.
The barrier to entry is higher in US MX/SX, but the barrier to success is lower. MCR won an SX, RCH won a championship.
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/23/2021 1:47pm
8/23/2021 1:47pm
early wrote:
The barrier to entry is higher in US MX/SX, but the barrier to success is lower. MCR won an SX, RCH won a championship.
You can't change decals and call that a newly homologated bike. Those are teams, BIG difference.
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early 8/23/2021 2:03pm
8/23/2021 2:03pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
You can't change decals and call that a newly homologated bike. Those are teams, BIG difference.
Teams that built bikes that beat the factory teams. The production rule has been more or less working as intended, imo it should be modified not thrown out.
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/23/2021 2:18pm
8/23/2021 2:18pm
early wrote:
Teams that built bikes that beat the factory teams. The production rule has been more or less working as intended, imo it should be modified not...
Teams that built bikes that beat the factory teams. The production rule has been more or less working as intended, imo it should be modified not thrown out.
Agreed. That's what this thread is about, change.
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/25/2021 11:46am
8/25/2021 11:46am Edited Date/Time 8/25/2021 11:48am
Since 1986 (35 years) this rule has protected the Big 4, only 2 companies (Huskagiva) & (KTM Inc. has 3 brands) have ever cleared the road block (400 units), the last in 2002 (19 years). After the Japanese engineered the competition out out business, they took over the voting block and closed the barn door behind them.

If I am wrong, please correct me?




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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/25/2021 11:51am
8/25/2021 11:51am
Curiously, if each manufacturer had a vote, it might turn out interesting?

4t's:
Honda
Kawasaki
Suzuki (do they still count with no factory team?)

2t's:
Yamaha
KTM
Husqvarna
Gas Gas
Beta

Triumph still unknown?
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APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 8/25/2021 12:40pm
8/25/2021 12:40pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
They do, Fantic, Beta, TM Aprilia, and more have dabbled. So you are OK with 400 bike minimums? 7200 bikes for 500 riders?
LungButter wrote:
How are the 7,200 bikes for 500 riders? The 7,200 bikes are for the public to buy. You've tried every way possible to make this argument...
How are the 7,200 bikes for 500 riders?

The 7,200 bikes are for the public to buy.

You've tried every way possible to make this argument work, bottom line is if Beta wants to race here at the top level they need to make a bike worthy of the rest of us buying. I'm sorry that's such a bummer for you. Tongue
Johnny Depp wrote:
I enjoy the back and forth with you, but we both know Beta is fully committed. Triumph claims to be. It is a huge barrier to...
I enjoy the back and forth with you, but we both know Beta is fully committed. Triumph claims to be. It is a huge barrier to entry designed to keep competition out of the big 4's thin japanese hair.

When is the last time a new manufacturer met the AMA minimums? And no, different color KTM's don't count.

The premise of the rule is to make fair competition and discourage advanced development. The amount of bikes required under the rules goes way way way beyond what could ever be needed for pro racing.
Define "fully committed"........

To me they would be fully committed if they built and had available for sale 400 of either a 250f or 450F and decided to apply for homologation.

So far they haven't, so it seems a bit extreme to refer to them as 'fully committed'.

I think that they MAY be very interested, though.

There is a significant difference between being interested in something and being fully committed to it.

For instance, the Japanese kamikaze pilot who flew 25 kamikaze missions was probably interested doing his job well, but he obviously wasn't 'fully committed' to it........
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davistld01
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davistld01 8/25/2021 2:13pm
8/25/2021 2:13pm
Am I the only one that clicked on thread expecting something different?
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DonM
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DonM 8/25/2021 2:15pm
8/25/2021 2:15pm Edited Date/Time 8/25/2021 2:16pm
davistld01 wrote:
Am I the only one that clicked on thread expecting something different?
Something different than Depp responding to himself in another ridiculous thread he started….
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/25/2021 3:17pm
8/25/2021 3:17pm
LungButter wrote:
How are the 7,200 bikes for 500 riders? The 7,200 bikes are for the public to buy. You've tried every way possible to make this argument...
How are the 7,200 bikes for 500 riders?

The 7,200 bikes are for the public to buy.

You've tried every way possible to make this argument work, bottom line is if Beta wants to race here at the top level they need to make a bike worthy of the rest of us buying. I'm sorry that's such a bummer for you. Tongue
Johnny Depp wrote:
I enjoy the back and forth with you, but we both know Beta is fully committed. Triumph claims to be. It is a huge barrier to...
I enjoy the back and forth with you, but we both know Beta is fully committed. Triumph claims to be. It is a huge barrier to entry designed to keep competition out of the big 4's thin japanese hair.

When is the last time a new manufacturer met the AMA minimums? And no, different color KTM's don't count.

The premise of the rule is to make fair competition and discourage advanced development. The amount of bikes required under the rules goes way way way beyond what could ever be needed for pro racing.
APLMAN99 wrote:
Define "fully committed"........ To me they would be fully committed if they built and had available for sale 400 of either a 250f or 450F and...
Define "fully committed"........

To me they would be fully committed if they built and had available for sale 400 of either a 250f or 450F and decided to apply for homologation.

So far they haven't, so it seems a bit extreme to refer to them as 'fully committed'.

I think that they MAY be very interested, though.

There is a significant difference between being interested in something and being fully committed to it.

For instance, the Japanese kamikaze pilot who flew 25 kamikaze missions was probably interested doing his job well, but he obviously wasn't 'fully committed' to it........
Competing in MXGP, dealers orders in place, a new team manager, leaked statements about AMA intentions, magazine covers etc., it’s happening unless they get cock blocked.
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APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 8/25/2021 3:19pm
8/25/2021 3:19pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
I enjoy the back and forth with you, but we both know Beta is fully committed. Triumph claims to be. It is a huge barrier to...
I enjoy the back and forth with you, but we both know Beta is fully committed. Triumph claims to be. It is a huge barrier to entry designed to keep competition out of the big 4's thin japanese hair.

When is the last time a new manufacturer met the AMA minimums? And no, different color KTM's don't count.

The premise of the rule is to make fair competition and discourage advanced development. The amount of bikes required under the rules goes way way way beyond what could ever be needed for pro racing.
APLMAN99 wrote:
Define "fully committed"........ To me they would be fully committed if they built and had available for sale 400 of either a 250f or 450F and...
Define "fully committed"........

To me they would be fully committed if they built and had available for sale 400 of either a 250f or 450F and decided to apply for homologation.

So far they haven't, so it seems a bit extreme to refer to them as 'fully committed'.

I think that they MAY be very interested, though.

There is a significant difference between being interested in something and being fully committed to it.

For instance, the Japanese kamikaze pilot who flew 25 kamikaze missions was probably interested doing his job well, but he obviously wasn't 'fully committed' to it........
Johnny Depp wrote:
Competing in MXGP, dealers orders in place, a new team manager, leaked statements about AMA intentions, magazine covers etc., it’s happening unless they get cock blocked.
So far it sounds like they are interested, but again that isn't the same as being committed is it?

Have they filed for homologation yet? That's even a bit more interested.

Getting it would be a much more concrete sign of commitment.
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/25/2021 3:20pm
8/25/2021 3:20pm
LungButter wrote:
How are the 7,200 bikes for 500 riders? The 7,200 bikes are for the public to buy. You've tried every way possible to make this argument...
How are the 7,200 bikes for 500 riders?

The 7,200 bikes are for the public to buy.

You've tried every way possible to make this argument work, bottom line is if Beta wants to race here at the top level they need to make a bike worthy of the rest of us buying. I'm sorry that's such a bummer for you. Tongue
Johnny Depp wrote:
I enjoy the back and forth with you, but we both know Beta is fully committed. Triumph claims to be. It is a huge barrier to...
I enjoy the back and forth with you, but we both know Beta is fully committed. Triumph claims to be. It is a huge barrier to entry designed to keep competition out of the big 4's thin japanese hair.

When is the last time a new manufacturer met the AMA minimums? And no, different color KTM's don't count.

The premise of the rule is to make fair competition and discourage advanced development. The amount of bikes required under the rules goes way way way beyond what could ever be needed for pro racing.
APLMAN99 wrote:
Define "fully committed"........ To me they would be fully committed if they built and had available for sale 400 of either a 250f or 450F and...
Define "fully committed"........

To me they would be fully committed if they built and had available for sale 400 of either a 250f or 450F and decided to apply for homologation.

So far they haven't, so it seems a bit extreme to refer to them as 'fully committed'.

I think that they MAY be very interested, though.

There is a significant difference between being interested in something and being fully committed to it.

For instance, the Japanese kamikaze pilot who flew 25 kamikaze missions was probably interested doing his job well, but he obviously wasn't 'fully committed' to it........
Nice commited analogy. I always liked “the chicken is involved in your breakfast, the pig is committed”.😃
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/25/2021 3:23pm
8/25/2021 3:23pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
Define "fully committed"........ To me they would be fully committed if they built and had available for sale 400 of either a 250f or 450F and...
Define "fully committed"........

To me they would be fully committed if they built and had available for sale 400 of either a 250f or 450F and decided to apply for homologation.

So far they haven't, so it seems a bit extreme to refer to them as 'fully committed'.

I think that they MAY be very interested, though.

There is a significant difference between being interested in something and being fully committed to it.

For instance, the Japanese kamikaze pilot who flew 25 kamikaze missions was probably interested doing his job well, but he obviously wasn't 'fully committed' to it........
Johnny Depp wrote:
Competing in MXGP, dealers orders in place, a new team manager, leaked statements about AMA intentions, magazine covers etc., it’s happening unless they get cock blocked.
APLMAN99 wrote:
So far it sounds like they are interested, but again that isn't the same as being committed is it? Have they filed for homologation yet? That's...
So far it sounds like they are interested, but again that isn't the same as being committed is it?

Have they filed for homologation yet? That's even a bit more interested.

Getting it would be a much more concrete sign of commitment.
That information is not transparent, and until/unless you have 200 bikes on a ship, it’s impossible. Be patient grasshopper.
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APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 8/25/2021 3:40pm
8/25/2021 3:40pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
Competing in MXGP, dealers orders in place, a new team manager, leaked statements about AMA intentions, magazine covers etc., it’s happening unless they get cock blocked.
APLMAN99 wrote:
So far it sounds like they are interested, but again that isn't the same as being committed is it? Have they filed for homologation yet? That's...
So far it sounds like they are interested, but again that isn't the same as being committed is it?

Have they filed for homologation yet? That's even a bit more interested.

Getting it would be a much more concrete sign of commitment.
Johnny Depp wrote:
That information is not transparent, and until/unless you have 200 bikes on a ship, it’s impossible. Be patient grasshopper.
So now you are saying that the homologation rule isn't going to be an impediment to Beta?

Make up your mind.........
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xrmark 8/25/2021 4:05pm
8/25/2021 4:05pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
So now you are saying that the homologation rule isn't going to be an impediment to Beta?

Make up your mind.........
The dude is so lost. Probably has no idea which one of his unbelievably stupid threads he’s responding in. It’s crazy the extents he’ll go to defend a bike that comes with Sachs suspension and breaks after it’s first tip over
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/25/2021 5:40pm
8/25/2021 5:40pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
So now you are saying that the homologation rule isn't going to be an impediment to Beta?

Make up your mind.........
I realize not everyone follows my prolific pontificating profusely, but if you read the threads a little before posting based off of the title and an assumption you'll see my rudder is steady.

Again, Beta has this already handled. This is about fighting for the other little guys like Beta used to be. They could have been in years ago if not for the barrier to entry.
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