Here is the Grant flag incident clip

ocscottie
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Edited Date/Time 1/26/2012 11:06pm






If you look closely, Josh has a lot going on at the time, a lapper on the inside, and a guy in what looks like an orange vest standing in front of the guy with the no jump flag.

The bottom line is if the flagger on the OUTSIDE had a no jump flag, i could see the penalty being fair. In this case, i think JGR should try and appeal it.
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5/31/2009 10:35am
Right on! Lame penalty.
pilotdude
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5/31/2009 10:36am
Agreed Scottie.
Nikhil
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5/31/2009 10:38am
There's no way they should be penalizing a rider for their own screw up. With JG taking the outside line, he obviously focused on the flag on his right, which didn't have the no jump marking. They need to take back the penalty.

The Shop

Wolfman
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5/31/2009 10:42am
That is some b.s. The no jump flag should have been in the hands of the outside guy to begin with. Add in the lapper and the guy in the orange vest and you have too much going on to blame it on Grant.
Wolfman
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5/31/2009 10:45am
After watching it again, with the volume on, Mike slowed down and didn't jump. Glad its not my call to make!
AmateurMX
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5/31/2009 10:52am
Wolfman wrote:
After watching it again, with the volume on, Mike slowed down and didn't jump. Glad its not my call to make!
Yes, and Mike was in the same line as Josh, going just as fast. Definitely a tough call.

CH
500guy
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5/31/2009 10:58am
I guess you shouldn't get a Red Light ticket if you don't see the light ?

The flag was out, he jumped, he gets the penalty, Sucks it happened but it's the right call.
ocscottie
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5/31/2009 11:01am
Jay, what if one light was red and one light was green? Pinch
FreshTopEnd
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5/31/2009 11:01am
The down rider is in that dip that Grant crossed back over into, so it's absolutely not an issue that a rider was not in danger.

It's a tough penalty because there is a lot going on for Grant and the no-jump flagger should have gone out into the track. On the other hand, Alessi had a lot going on, too, and he saw it and backed off. But I don't think the issue with the rule is whether you had intent to violate the rule, but whether you jumped against the flag whether you were aware of it or not.

At the end of the day, it's easier to enforce rules when you base penalties in safety rules on cut or dry decisions, even if it cuts harshly. It's tough, too, after they handed out position penalties earlier in the day for the same thing in the 250f's.

Feel badly for Grant, and won't lose any sleep if it sticks or gets reversed.
500guy
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5/31/2009 11:14am
ocscottie wrote:
Jay, what if one light was red and one light was green? Pinch
I agree it sucks for Grant but it's really the only call they can make especially after docking other riders.

I think if one was green and one was red I'd be slowing down, One other thing ,

you would be surprised the amount of riders and Team Personnel that do not know the rules. not saying Grant didn't know but he didn't even slow down.

I'm like FTE if it gets reversed or sticks it won't bother me either way.
ocscottie
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5/31/2009 11:26am
Luckily it didnt really affect the outcome as far as o/a. Now if Josh happens to lose the title by 2 points..uugh that would suck!

I know one thing for sure, riders wont be jumping if they see that flag again!

Anyone else notice how fast the lappers have been getting out of the way since Chisolm-gate?
Foo723
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5/31/2009 11:51am
as someone addressed in another thread, too many yellow type flags out there. the best flag to use is the white/red cross, its the only flag of its kind with the exception of the white flag at the finish line jump.

in josh's defense, he's not putting around on a sunday afternoon stroll, he's hauling ass. he paid attention to the one flag that was waving to get his attention and even heeded the direction of finger pointing to move over to the left. he had to see and decide all of this in about one second while coming up to a major jump.

just curious, why 2 flaggers in that corner? did the other guy abandon his post to come over and cover this post?
5/31/2009 12:04pm
Grant never lost one bit of momemtum, even if he did not see the no jump flag,he still did not slow at all for the yellow only flag. Fair call. You can plainly see Alessi check up for the flag(s). Was MA acknoledging the no jump flag, or slowing for the yellow? Either way , Mike slowed, Grant never checked up ,even for the "rider down,proceed with caution " basic yellow.
FLmxer
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Fantasy
5/31/2009 12:36pm
Tough one but it seemed like the lapper was actually in the line of vision to the inside flagger.
GetWeird
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5/31/2009 12:36pm
That is not your standard double either..it's more of a straight drop off with a mound for a landing. Totally should be appealed.
5/31/2009 12:59pm
My question is, why weren't both flaggers displaying the same flag? Communication error? Difference of judgement? Guy on the outside mistakingly displaying the wrong one?
MXTR
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5/31/2009 1:18pm
If the whole yellow/red flag deal was implemented properly, then Grant should have been penalized.

The track official screwed up and the AMA backed him up. The video clearly shows the problem with the guy with the yellow/red flag. What's the deal, they can't afford to have more of those "special" flags so we don't have this problem again.

Grant got screwed!
5/31/2009 1:23pm
If Grant does appeal and gets the decision, every 250F rider that was penalized for the same infraction should go with the "I did not see the flag' defense", and make appeals also.
FreshTopEnd
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5/31/2009 1:26pm
Could be wrong, but I think the no-jump flags go to another separate person from the flagger with the regular yellow. Probably a good idea.
Friday
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5/31/2009 1:40pm
When he came around in the line he was in,his attention is attracted by a "waving" yellow flag. Something waving gets more attention than the thing being static. Also the lapper was on the side of the no jump flag possibly obscuring his view. MA had quite a bit more time to react as the lapper had cleared and Mike was the 3rd bike thru the section. Too many similar flags. Poor workmanship by the flagmen. Grant should get his points back,IMHO.
txmxer
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5/31/2009 1:58pm
Obviously, everyone sees it a little differently.

Here's the rules:

Warning Flags:
i. Stationary Yellow Flag: Indicates a potentially hazardous
situation on or near the racetrack. Passing is allowed. Riders
must exercise caution.
ii. Waving Yellow Flag: Indicates serious hazard on or near the
racetrack. Passing is allowed. Riders must proceed with
extreme caution.
iii. Yellow and Red Stripe Flag: Indicates a
potentially hazardous situation on or near
the racetrack in an area that is not clearly
visible to on-coming riders. Both wheels of
the motorcycle must remain on the ground over obstacles until
the rider has passed the area of concern.


So, he should have kept the wheels on the ground. That settles the issue IMO.

What I think happened is that he did not see the no jump flag. Possibly due to the line he was in and looking at the guy to his right, or possibly due to Mike blocking clear view of the flag. Lot going on there.

Had he not made a pass, it probably would have been a warning and not a position loss (my guess). The officials need to do a better job, but the rules are there and they attempted to warn everyone.
mxdancer
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5/31/2009 2:05pm
I rerun that video 3 times. I see no reason that Grant should not be docked. I agree.... To bad for Grant, but flags flying on both sides of the track....no reason to miss seeing both even in the heat of battle.

Gma B
Lefty Right
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5/31/2009 2:16pm
the flag man leaned way out after josh went by!! thats how mikey saw it..
WhipMeister
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5/31/2009 4:08pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 12:11am
txmxer wrote:
Obviously, everyone sees it a little differently. Here's the rules: Warning Flags: i. Stationary Yellow Flag: Indicates a potentially hazardous situation on or near the racetrack...
Obviously, everyone sees it a little differently.

Here's the rules:

Warning Flags:
i. Stationary Yellow Flag: Indicates a potentially hazardous
situation on or near the racetrack. Passing is allowed. Riders
must exercise caution.
ii. Waving Yellow Flag: Indicates serious hazard on or near the
racetrack. Passing is allowed. Riders must proceed with
extreme caution.
iii. Yellow and Red Stripe Flag: Indicates a
potentially hazardous situation on or near
the racetrack in an area that is not clearly
visible to on-coming riders. Both wheels of
the motorcycle must remain on the ground over obstacles until
the rider has passed the area of concern.


So, he should have kept the wheels on the ground. That settles the issue IMO.

What I think happened is that he did not see the no jump flag. Possibly due to the line he was in and looking at the guy to his right, or possibly due to Mike blocking clear view of the flag. Lot going on there.

Had he not made a pass, it probably would have been a warning and not a position loss (my guess). The officials need to do a better job, but the rules are there and they attempted to warn everyone.
He didn't make a pass, Tex. Mike was behind him, where he had been for a couple of laps. The guy to the inside was a lapper.


I see both sides of this. A rule is a rule. But I think it's also reasonable to assume that Grant did not see the inside flagger in time to do anything about it. If you're going to have such a penalty on the books, then you need to make sure there is NO CHANCE to overlook the signal. The outside flagger and the inside flagger should have been waving the SAME FLAG. Or, better yet, they need an electronic system. Low power LEDs and Wifi make such a portable system possible and not super costly.


All things considered, I'd rather see them stick to the rules to the letter, even with flaws in the execution. But FIX THE DAMNED fuck up, DC!


TerryK
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5/31/2009 4:37pm
Im sure Grant didn't see it it, but the rule is what the rule is. It's great that the AMA is trying to be more consistent with rules enforcement.
Guzzler
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5/31/2009 5:13pm
Friday wrote:
When he came around in the line he was in,his attention is attracted by a "waving" yellow flag. Something waving gets more attention than the thing...
When he came around in the line he was in,his attention is attracted by a "waving" yellow flag. Something waving gets more attention than the thing being static. Also the lapper was on the side of the no jump flag possibly obscuring his view. MA had quite a bit more time to react as the lapper had cleared and Mike was the 3rd bike thru the section. Too many similar flags. Poor workmanship by the flagmen. Grant should get his points back,IMHO.
I think that they should use the white w/red flag!! It suck that this happened but they are going to keep it with Grant being docked points. Sucks and that lapper was in the way. Why was the guy with the regular yellow flag really waving it while the RED/Yellow guy just held it out?
WORCSRacer
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5/31/2009 6:15pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 12:11am
The rule is there and being enforced for rider safety. I'm sure Lamay is glad they had a rule in place to help protect downed riders.


Review the video, the flag is out well before Grant enters the corner, the yellow flagman is in the line AND pointing to the inside where the Yellow cross flag is. Grant never looked but in the end that is irrelevant. Racing is racing but Grant could have and should have checked up and it is the RIDER who is responsible for being aware of the flags and obeying them, the penalty will stand.
mxpimp
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5/31/2009 7:26pm
He jumped end of story. Zero tolerance bitches!
Void Main
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5/31/2009 7:39pm
It looked more like a seat bounce to me. Does the rule apply on a seat bounce?

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