ET vs JS vs RC

StartedTooLate 7/30/2018 10:59pm
7/30/2018 10:59pm
Ask a pro about some of Eli's fastest rides some time. For instance....what about Hangtown in 2015? More than a few pros who have lined up along side RC, JS, RV, etc will tell you that Hangtown in 2015 is the fastest they have seen anyone ride a dirt bike. Ever.
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TogaSet
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TogaSet 7/31/2018 12:07am
7/31/2018 12:07am
Carmichael in his day would beat anyone in the 450 class right now without even breaking a sweat.
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Sideways
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Sideways 7/31/2018 12:21am
7/31/2018 12:21am
bbhMoto wrote:
Racerx has these fastest lap times for Washougal 2017 Tomac - 2:11 https://racerxonline.com/2017/08/01/sign-of-the-lap-times-washougal 2012 RD5 - 2:07 https://racerxonline.com/2012/07/24/sign-of-the-lap-times-washougal 2007 RV - 2:21 https://racerxonline.com/2007/08/01/sign-of-the-lap-times-washougal Maybe the track...
Racerx has these fastest lap times for Washougal

2017 Tomac - 2:11 https://racerxonline.com/2017/08/01/sign-of-the-lap-times-washougal
2012 RD5 - 2:07 https://racerxonline.com/2012/07/24/sign-of-the-lap-times-washougal
2007 RV - 2:21 https://racerxonline.com/2007/08/01/sign-of-the-lap-times-washougal

Maybe the track changed but RD5 was haulin'
RV is retired and had 2:21 laptimes on his 125cc this weekend. Impossible to compare laptimes from different years on a mx track.
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Stephon
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Stephon 7/31/2018 12:47am
7/31/2018 12:47am
bbhMoto wrote:
[i]"You can't compare lap times from different times of the same day in motocross let alone from year to year."[/i] Understand, however if JB was 10...
"You can't compare lap times from different times of the same day in motocross let alone from year to year."

Understand, however if JB was 10 seconds a lap faster for example on the same track, that would be saying something, no?
RG1 wrote:
In my opinion, not really. You can only really get anything from comparing lap times when everyone is racing the same track at the same time...
In my opinion, not really. You can only really get anything from comparing lap times when everyone is racing the same track at the same time. Perfect example of this is that last year Musquin's best lap in winning the second Moto at Washougal was a 2:11.590. Tomac's fastest lap in Moto 2 this weekend was almost 3 seconds slower at a 2:14.395 and yet he worked everyone this year. If you went back and JS7 had done a 2:03 it would mean nothing as far as Tomac or anyone else racing now is concerned
bbhMoto wrote:
Fair enough. But at Washougal it sure seemed like ET was as fast as JS7 ever was in his prime. When ET has his flashes of...
Fair enough. But at Washougal it sure seemed like ET was as fast as JS7 ever was in his prime. When ET has his flashes of brilliance, he is untouched on a dirt bike speed wise. You just don't see anyone capable of going that fast...
"Seemed like" he was as fast as JS7 ever was in his prime? JS7 was in his prime in what '06 -'09? Are saying that current Eli seems like he's close to the speed of James 10-12 years ago?

I'd like to think that IF all things are equal, '06-'08 James (that era bike) vs. '17-'18 Eli on current era bike, that Eli would win the lap time game...Eli wins that pretty easily right?

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DrinkMoreWater 7/31/2018 2:49am
7/31/2018 2:49am
I reckon RV is on RC's level on in MX, people seem to forget RV, that guy waxed MXDN field on a 250.

RV/RC > Stewart > Tomac, Jesus that was hard to type out I only put RV and RC ahead because they were more consistent.

RC had to deal with JS which made him alot better, RV had to deal with Stewart and dungey.
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DrinkMoreWater 7/31/2018 2:51am
7/31/2018 2:51am
StartedTooLate wrote:
Ask a pro about some of Eli's fastest rides some time. For instance....what about Hangtown in 2015? More than a few pros who have lined up...
Ask a pro about some of Eli's fastest rides some time. For instance....what about Hangtown in 2015? More than a few pros who have lined up along side RC, JS, RV, etc will tell you that Hangtown in 2015 is the fastest they have seen anyone ride a dirt bike. Ever.
Yeah it's a shame he hasn't been that quick since he's not too far off.

Herlings has been at that speed or is.
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NateDawg
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NateDawg 7/31/2018 4:17am
7/31/2018 4:17am
StartedTooLate wrote:
Ask a pro about some of Eli's fastest rides some time. For instance....what about Hangtown in 2015? More than a few pros who have lined up...
Ask a pro about some of Eli's fastest rides some time. For instance....what about Hangtown in 2015? More than a few pros who have lined up along side RC, JS, RV, etc will tell you that Hangtown in 2015 is the fastest they have seen anyone ride a dirt bike. Ever.
DrinkMoreWater wrote:
Yeah it's a shame he hasn't been that quick since he's not too far off.

Herlings has been at that speed or is.
So you think Herlings would beat 2015 Dungey by a minute and a half? Lol, the fish keeps getting bigger.
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NateDawg
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NateDawg 7/31/2018 4:21am
7/31/2018 4:21am
DrinkMoreWater wrote:
I reckon RV is on RC's level on in MX, people seem to forget RV, that guy waxed MXDN field on a 250. RV/RC > Stewart...
I reckon RV is on RC's level on in MX, people seem to forget RV, that guy waxed MXDN field on a 250.

RV/RC > Stewart > Tomac, Jesus that was hard to type out I only put RV and RC ahead because they were more consistent.

RC had to deal with JS which made him alot better, RV had to deal with Stewart and dungey.
RV is not on RC's level outdoors.
In 2011 an aging Chad Reed gave RV and Dungey everything they wanted and more. He was leading the MX championship before he visited the moon at Millville.

Let's remember this is the same Chad Reed that had absolutely nothing for RC outdoors, ever. Carmichael went 24-0 against Reed in his prime... Villopoto would never do that.
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scootch
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scootch 7/31/2018 6:23am
7/31/2018 6:23am
Here's how it would go:

JS qualifies fastest
RC takes the overall with a 2-1
JS wins moto 1 then crashes while leading moto 2 and salvages a 3rd
ET gets 2 10th place starts and goes 3-2 on the day
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NateDawg 7/31/2018 7:56am
7/31/2018 7:56am
scootch wrote:
Here's how it would go: JS qualifies fastest RC takes the overall with a 2-1 JS wins moto 1 then crashes while leading moto 2 and...
Here's how it would go:

JS qualifies fastest
RC takes the overall with a 2-1
JS wins moto 1 then crashes while leading moto 2 and salvages a 3rd
ET gets 2 10th place starts and goes 3-2 on the day
And then eventually Stewart and Tomac would wad themselves up trying to run with RC every moto, which is no knock on them.
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gt80rider
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gt80rider 7/31/2018 10:09am
7/31/2018 10:09am
No comparison, Bubba and RC belong in the talk of the best of all time, ET does not, at least not yet. Dude (ET) is a head trip that elected to not representing his country at des nations.
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toroP
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toroP 7/31/2018 10:16am
7/31/2018 10:16am
NateDawg wrote:
RV is not on RC's level outdoors. In 2011 an aging Chad Reed gave RV and Dungey everything they wanted and more. He was leading the...
RV is not on RC's level outdoors.
In 2011 an aging Chad Reed gave RV and Dungey everything they wanted and more. He was leading the MX championship before he visited the moon at Millville.

Let's remember this is the same Chad Reed that had absolutely nothing for RC outdoors, ever. Carmichael went 24-0 against Reed in his prime... Villopoto would never do that.
Thank you
blockhead17 7/31/2018 11:53am
7/31/2018 11:53am
Everyone is so quick to remember RC used to beat second place by a minute.. and second place was usually a guy called James or Chad..
And this pains me to bring up, being a guy that loved the other two......
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bbhMoto 7/31/2018 12:08pm
7/31/2018 12:08pm
DrinkMoreWater wrote:
I reckon RV is on RC's level on in MX, people seem to forget RV, that guy waxed MXDN field on a 250. RV/RC > Stewart...
I reckon RV is on RC's level on in MX, people seem to forget RV, that guy waxed MXDN field on a 250.

RV/RC > Stewart > Tomac, Jesus that was hard to type out I only put RV and RC ahead because they were more consistent.

RC had to deal with JS which made him alot better, RV had to deal with Stewart and dungey.
NateDawg wrote:
RV is not on RC's level outdoors. In 2011 an aging Chad Reed gave RV and Dungey everything they wanted and more. He was leading the...
RV is not on RC's level outdoors.
In 2011 an aging Chad Reed gave RV and Dungey everything they wanted and more. He was leading the MX championship before he visited the moon at Millville.

Let's remember this is the same Chad Reed that had absolutely nothing for RC outdoors, ever. Carmichael went 24-0 against Reed in his prime... Villopoto would never do that.
Good point on the 24-0
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bbhMoto 7/31/2018 12:12pm
7/31/2018 12:12pm
RG1 wrote:
In my opinion, not really. You can only really get anything from comparing lap times when everyone is racing the same track at the same time...
In my opinion, not really. You can only really get anything from comparing lap times when everyone is racing the same track at the same time. Perfect example of this is that last year Musquin's best lap in winning the second Moto at Washougal was a 2:11.590. Tomac's fastest lap in Moto 2 this weekend was almost 3 seconds slower at a 2:14.395 and yet he worked everyone this year. If you went back and JS7 had done a 2:03 it would mean nothing as far as Tomac or anyone else racing now is concerned
bbhMoto wrote:
Fair enough. But at Washougal it sure seemed like ET was as fast as JS7 ever was in his prime. When ET has his flashes of...
Fair enough. But at Washougal it sure seemed like ET was as fast as JS7 ever was in his prime. When ET has his flashes of brilliance, he is untouched on a dirt bike speed wise. You just don't see anyone capable of going that fast...
Stephon wrote:
"Seemed like" he was as fast as JS7 ever was in his prime? JS7 was in his prime in what '06 -'09? Are saying that current...
"Seemed like" he was as fast as JS7 ever was in his prime? JS7 was in his prime in what '06 -'09? Are saying that current Eli seems like he's close to the speed of James 10-12 years ago?

I'd like to think that IF all things are equal, '06-'08 James (that era bike) vs. '17-'18 Eli on current era bike, that Eli would win the lap time game...Eli wins that pretty easily right?
What I meant is that in last weekends race, I have never seen anyone rail those outside corners like ET. Maybe JS did from time to time, but ET seems to pull it out a lot more often. Herlings does the same thing. It's a whole different level of speed and you can see it as the race unfolds. RC maybe rode a tad slower but he never let up and one more races because of that. RC was a superfast RD5 in terms of consistency.
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BobbyM 7/31/2018 1:18pm
7/31/2018 1:18pm
bbhMoto wrote:
[i]"You can't compare lap times from different times of the same day in motocross let alone from year to year."[/i] Understand, however if JB was 10...
"You can't compare lap times from different times of the same day in motocross let alone from year to year."

Understand, however if JB was 10 seconds a lap faster for example on the same track, that would be saying something, no?
RG1 wrote:
In my opinion, not really. You can only really get anything from comparing lap times when everyone is racing the same track at the same time...
In my opinion, not really. You can only really get anything from comparing lap times when everyone is racing the same track at the same time. Perfect example of this is that last year Musquin's best lap in winning the second Moto at Washougal was a 2:11.590. Tomac's fastest lap in Moto 2 this weekend was almost 3 seconds slower at a 2:14.395 and yet he worked everyone this year. If you went back and JS7 had done a 2:03 it would mean nothing as far as Tomac or anyone else racing now is concerned
bbhMoto wrote:
Fair enough. But at Washougal it sure seemed like ET was as fast as JS7 ever was in his prime. When ET has his flashes of...
Fair enough. But at Washougal it sure seemed like ET was as fast as JS7 ever was in his prime. When ET has his flashes of brilliance, he is untouched on a dirt bike speed wise. You just don't see anyone capable of going that fast...
No comparison... None.
ruy
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ruy 7/31/2018 1:33pm
7/31/2018 1:33pm

headache
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headache 7/31/2018 5:45pm
7/31/2018 5:45pm
RC lapped 40 of the best riders in the country. enuf said. JS was the best on 125s. he slaughtered the 250fs in 04 while racing with 125ccs. ET is fast right now no doubt, but not in the level yet of RC or RV
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toroP 7/31/2018 8:26pm
7/31/2018 8:26pm
bbhMoto wrote:
What I meant is that in last weekends race, I have never seen anyone rail those outside corners like ET. Maybe JS did from time to...
What I meant is that in last weekends race, I have never seen anyone rail those outside corners like ET. Maybe JS did from time to time, but ET seems to pull it out a lot more often. Herlings does the same thing. It's a whole different level of speed and you can see it as the race unfolds. RC maybe rode a tad slower but he never let up and one more races because of that. RC was a superfast RD5 in terms of consistency.
You need to re-watch Roczen’s title run.
Watch him make Tomac look slow.
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TDeath21
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TDeath21 7/31/2018 8:41pm
7/31/2018 8:41pm
How quick you people forget Carmichael. He waxed everyone all the time. We talk about Tomac’s 2015 Hangtown ride like it was incredible. And it was. Carmichael did that exact thing at every race from mid 01-07. He’d win motos by 30+ and that was after cruising the final half of the moto. When some other great riders like Windham or Stewart were doing their absolute best that day then there would sometimes be a battle. In which Carmichael would still usually win.

The absolute best season of recent memory is probably a debate between 16 Roczen, 12 Dungey, 13 Villopoto, and maybe 18 Tomac. Carmichael alone has 4 seasons better than their very best one.

It’s not a debate guys. It’s just not.
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agn5009 7/31/2018 9:40pm
7/31/2018 9:40pm
agn5009 wrote:
Eli ain't the FMOTP. FMITUSA sure, but until he beats Jeffrey Herlings you can't claim he's the fastest in the world. The rest of your post...
Eli ain't the FMOTP. FMITUSA sure, but until he beats Jeffrey Herlings you can't claim he's the fastest in the world.

The rest of your post, no to basically everything. You can't compare lap times. Different track conditions, different bikes (better), different competition, different ruts, different jumps, different corners, different starts. Literally everything is different about the track and bike. It is literally impossible to figure out whether RC, JS or ET is faster at three different times.

The only thing that's not impossible is guaging their careers. RC is obviously the best choice career wise.
drt410 wrote:
Eli has beat Herlings, last year at USGP, why do people say he hasnt? Herlings also beat him. At the usgp they split motos. Anderson and...
Eli has beat Herlings, last year at USGP, why do people say he hasnt? Herlings also beat him. At the usgp they split motos. Anderson and Webb have also both beat Herlings straight up too, what does that say? Anderson beat him at mxon and Webb at charlotte usgp. Just because he had a good race here on a day when Tomac wanted to cruise around and wrap up the title doesnt mean hes way better. It really doesnt mean much other than yes hes fast and had a good day. Tomac isnt way better than him either, theyre both the 2 fastest riders in the world. Anything can happen on 1 raceday, it doesnt say anything absolutely definitive. Herlings had a great day at Ironman and it was incredible to watch, but it really didnt mean anything other than hes fast, just like we know he is.

Herlings Ironman race didnt say as much as people wanna say it did. It was one race, the last race after a long season, and Tomacs 1 job that day was just to not crash and take home the #1 plate. That was it and just by finishing both motos he would win the championship. His job that day was not to win the race, although that would be nice, he gets paid to win championships. Tomac was cruising around and Herlings caught and passed him and for a second the killer instinct kicked in and he forgot the gameplan and caught back up to Herlings and went to pass him back but then he landed in that soft dirt and crashed. After that he was like damn I cant be doing that and settled for that race and also for the next one and won the championship.

Theyre both world class and have both beat eachother. Like I said Herlings can be touched Eli, Ando, and Webb have all beat him straight up. Stop dogging US riders while conveniently forgetting the facts.

Mxon will be the real test this year to settle the hype, but no matter who wins its still 1 race. I think we have to take this years US mxon and next years Euro mxon and combine the two and whatever else after that happens in the future to really get an idea.
I ain't ignoring any "facts." I honestly believe Herlings is faster than Tomac. It doesn't matter if you agree or whatever. Neither one of us really know who is faster or better. It's all opinion.

And I don't "dog" on any US riders. I am American and will certainly be rooting for our guys come MXDN. I simply believe Herlings is faster than Tomac. I'm not sure why that bugs you so much.

We will see who wins at the MXDN. But some people will make excuses no matter what. Even if Tomac holeshots and Herlings starts at 15th, runs him down and wins the excuses will still be out in full force. FYI, I hope Tomac wins the MXDN because I want our guys to win the event.
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brimx153 8/1/2018 4:06am
8/1/2018 4:06am
TDeath21 wrote:
How quick you people forget Carmichael. He waxed everyone all the time. We talk about Tomac’s 2015 Hangtown ride like it was incredible. And it was...
How quick you people forget Carmichael. He waxed everyone all the time. We talk about Tomac’s 2015 Hangtown ride like it was incredible. And it was. Carmichael did that exact thing at every race from mid 01-07. He’d win motos by 30+ and that was after cruising the final half of the moto. When some other great riders like Windham or Stewart were doing their absolute best that day then there would sometimes be a battle. In which Carmichael would still usually win.

The absolute best season of recent memory is probably a debate between 16 Roczen, 12 Dungey, 13 Villopoto, and maybe 18 Tomac. Carmichael alone has 4 seasons better than their very best one.

It’s not a debate guys. It’s just not.
I 100% agree .people say js7 .why !! RC was wayyyy faster outdoor s than Js7 most of the time . There s this myth that Js7 was faster than RC outdoors in lap times and RC just wore him down . It's just not true there were times when RC was way faster in lap times . People seem to mix up SX with outdoors .
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brimx153 8/1/2018 4:20am
8/1/2018 4:20am
bbhMoto wrote:
What I meant is that in last weekends race, I have never seen anyone rail those outside corners like ET. Maybe JS did from time to...
What I meant is that in last weekends race, I have never seen anyone rail those outside corners like ET. Maybe JS did from time to time, but ET seems to pull it out a lot more often. Herlings does the same thing. It's a whole different level of speed and you can see it as the race unfolds. RC maybe rode a tad slower but he never let up and one more races because of that. RC was a superfast RD5 in terms of consistency.
Thats complete and outter bullsh#t .RC WAS FASTER THAN JS7 90% OF THE TIME. There was loads of races it was nt even close . Go back and look at 05 06 07 .you can say that about SX that RC won through consistency but outdoors was a very different story .
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ruy 8/1/2018 6:57am
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Crush
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Crush 8/1/2018 7:21am
8/1/2018 7:21am Edited Date/Time 8/1/2018 7:21am
Comparing speed with racing the guy is hard.

I have no doubt Eli now or early 2015 is going RV/RC/JS warp speed... but does that mean I think all things being equal he’d beat them in a race?

No it does not.

No one ever really got past the mind-fuck of lining up next to the Goat. I think RV could have... but RC certainly doesn’t give you any reasons on his CV to doubt him.
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Crush
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Crush 8/1/2018 7:24am
8/1/2018 7:24am
bbhMoto wrote:
What I meant is that in last weekends race, I have never seen anyone rail those outside corners like ET. Maybe JS did from time to...
What I meant is that in last weekends race, I have never seen anyone rail those outside corners like ET. Maybe JS did from time to time, but ET seems to pull it out a lot more often. Herlings does the same thing. It's a whole different level of speed and you can see it as the race unfolds. RC maybe rode a tad slower but he never let up and one more races because of that. RC was a superfast RD5 in terms of consistency.
toroP wrote:
You need to re-watch Roczen’s title run.
Watch him make Tomac look slow.
I mean, Eli was on the mend from double shoulder surgery and on a bike he had barely ridden outdoors.

Kinda like Kenny right now.
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reynardfan1
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reynardfan1 8/1/2018 8:03am
8/1/2018 8:03am
Compare MPH in the Millville sand whoops...that’s about all you need to do...
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mxb2 8/1/2018 8:07am
8/1/2018 8:07am
TDeath21 wrote:
How quick you people forget Carmichael. He waxed everyone all the time. We talk about Tomac’s 2015 Hangtown ride like it was incredible. And it was...
How quick you people forget Carmichael. He waxed everyone all the time. We talk about Tomac’s 2015 Hangtown ride like it was incredible. And it was. Carmichael did that exact thing at every race from mid 01-07. He’d win motos by 30+ and that was after cruising the final half of the moto. When some other great riders like Windham or Stewart were doing their absolute best that day then there would sometimes be a battle. In which Carmichael would still usually win.

The absolute best season of recent memory is probably a debate between 16 Roczen, 12 Dungey, 13 Villopoto, and maybe 18 Tomac. Carmichael alone has 4 seasons better than their very best one.

It’s not a debate guys. It’s just not.
Bingo. Rc was the best ever on a mx bike and sx combined. Not even close. Fanboys need to look at some stats. Rc left the sport. Winning every race 2007. End of story.
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bbhMoto
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bbhMoto 8/1/2018 8:24am
8/1/2018 8:24am Edited Date/Time 8/1/2018 8:25am
reynardfan1 wrote:
Compare MPH in the Millville sand whoops...that’s about all you need to do...
Can that be done? Are there stats for mph? Or are you talking visuals?
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Park Boys 8/1/2018 8:47am
8/1/2018 8:47am Edited Date/Time 8/1/2018 9:00am
Too hard to try and compare eras, for one Tomac can't lay back and wait to the end with those guys or a healthy Roczen.

The perfect MX season happend for only 5 races, the 2007 MX season. After 5 races and multiple Stewart mistakes and crashes they were only separated by 15 points. The 26 year old RC won 7 motos and the 21 year old Stewart won 3 and crashed all by himself at Red Bud while leading at the end of the race in what would be their last race together. Point is, it was close. James in 06,07 pushed RC into making more mistakes in a two years than a careers worth of races against Reed and Windham.

RC retired and Stewart thought he was gonna be unbeatable and his Ego defeated him. RC retired because of Stewarts abiltly to take risks, admits it in Sam Jones interview no longer wanted to take the risks with jumps in SX. Which is a shame because their outdoor battles are still the best ever IMO.

ET vs KR vs JH would be the perfect season now. But Herlings was still on 250s when Roczen was 100% and when Roczen was 100% in 16 Tomac wasn't quite there and in Tomacs amazing 2015 run Roczen was coming off injures and now Tomac and Herlings are at 100% Roczen is not. A cruel sport as far as match ups go.
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