If Honda entered the 50cc class ......

kzizok
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kzizok 9/23/2017 9:11pm
9/23/2017 9:11pm Edited Date/Time 9/23/2017 9:18pm
I dont think it would be possible, if you are talking being competitive with a full blown KTM 50SX race bike . It appears that the four stroke advantages dimish as you go lower in cc. The weight-to-hp ratio reach the tipping point.

In the 85 market, Yamaha pulled out with their 150f and the current 85 market hardly have any CRF150's. Lends itself to where the 85cc size is where the proverbial line is drawn in the sand.

Based on using a KTM50SX as the comparison example (since it is race only) my question is, why would you want a full race four stroke for the 50 class? Or better yet, why would Honda want to do it?
Underground 9/23/2017 9:43pm
9/23/2017 9:43pm
kzizok wrote:
I dont think it would be possible, if you are talking being competitive with a full blown KTM 50SX race bike . It appears that the...
I dont think it would be possible, if you are talking being competitive with a full blown KTM 50SX race bike . It appears that the four stroke advantages dimish as you go lower in cc. The weight-to-hp ratio reach the tipping point.

In the 85 market, Yamaha pulled out with their 150f and the current 85 market hardly have any CRF150's. Lends itself to where the 85cc size is where the proverbial line is drawn in the sand.

Based on using a KTM50SX as the comparison example (since it is race only) my question is, why would you want a full race four stroke for the 50 class? Or better yet, why would Honda want to do it?
I don't want so much a competative with the KTM50, 50cc auto 4 stroke race bike, I was just thinking to myself from along the lines of a reliable but well handling minibike for 4-8 yo's who does or don't race but want something with decent handling and doesn't cost 4 large$$.
A CRF50 is alright for riding around the backyard when they first start riding, anything more and they find it's limits pretty quick. Anything I've seen available to improve suspension is aimed at the more grown up kids pit bike scene so is sprung and valved too heavy and costs a fair chunk. Just like the BBR extended lower leg kit his bike has already but come with springs that barely move for me and don't budge a millimeter for him.
The step through Honda engine design is also very cumbersome and heavy and the auto clutch makes the gear shift lever very hard to shift for little feet due to having to compress the clutch and shift at the same time. I envisage a much smaller and simplified cases matched to one of the Honda top ends pictured above, that only house the crank, centrifical clutch, kick start, with minimal shafts and gears required out to a chain drive rear end that would lessen weight and cost.
Bring back a entry level 50 class with a decent handling bike and no mods allowed again to keep costs down. Some of those 50's have more mods than a factory bike. Think I'll just find a blown up older KTM and convert it to electric myself. I know a guy who owns a Solar panel store and races a full blown open wheel electric race car. Lite, quiet and decent handling that should come in at well under $4G
kzizok
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kzizok 9/23/2017 10:17pm
9/23/2017 10:17pm
^^^Ah, OK, got it.

Thought this was cool:


Got it from the electric forum.
NATEP231
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NATEP231 9/24/2017 6:18am
9/24/2017 6:18am
I remember in the early 90s a few kids would show up on MR50's in my class

And Honda never imported these little suckers to the USA but I wish I had one in the garage


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Dropbear
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Dropbear 9/24/2017 3:46pm
9/24/2017 3:46pm Edited Date/Time 9/24/2017 3:47pm
NATEP231 wrote:
I remember in the early 90s a few kids would show up on MR50's in my class [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/24/216420/s1200_IMG_0174.jpg[/img] And Honda never imported these little suckers to...
I remember in the early 90s a few kids would show up on MR50's in my class

And Honda never imported these little suckers to the USA but I wish I had one in the garage


Honda sold a ton of these MR50's in Australia. As is usually Honda's want, basically started the 50cc 12" clas.
Dropbear
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Dropbear 9/24/2017 3:49pm
9/24/2017 3:49pm Edited Date/Time 9/24/2017 6:00pm


This is the 50cc class circa 1973. Gemini, Tarbo and Fantic. These kids would have been 7 - 8 years old. 4 speed with a clutch.
Gus
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Gus 9/24/2017 4:20pm
9/24/2017 4:20pm
kzizok wrote:
I dont think it would be possible, if you are talking being competitive with a full blown KTM 50SX race bike . It appears that the...
I dont think it would be possible, if you are talking being competitive with a full blown KTM 50SX race bike . It appears that the four stroke advantages dimish as you go lower in cc. The weight-to-hp ratio reach the tipping point.

In the 85 market, Yamaha pulled out with their 150f and the current 85 market hardly have any CRF150's. Lends itself to where the 85cc size is where the proverbial line is drawn in the sand.

Based on using a KTM50SX as the comparison example (since it is race only) my question is, why would you want a full race four stroke for the 50 class? Or better yet, why would Honda want to do it?
Underground wrote:
I don't want so much a competative with the KTM50, 50cc auto 4 stroke race bike, I was just thinking to myself from along the lines...
I don't want so much a competative with the KTM50, 50cc auto 4 stroke race bike, I was just thinking to myself from along the lines of a reliable but well handling minibike for 4-8 yo's who does or don't race but want something with decent handling and doesn't cost 4 large$$.
A CRF50 is alright for riding around the backyard when they first start riding, anything more and they find it's limits pretty quick. Anything I've seen available to improve suspension is aimed at the more grown up kids pit bike scene so is sprung and valved too heavy and costs a fair chunk. Just like the BBR extended lower leg kit his bike has already but come with springs that barely move for me and don't budge a millimeter for him.
The step through Honda engine design is also very cumbersome and heavy and the auto clutch makes the gear shift lever very hard to shift for little feet due to having to compress the clutch and shift at the same time. I envisage a much smaller and simplified cases matched to one of the Honda top ends pictured above, that only house the crank, centrifical clutch, kick start, with minimal shafts and gears required out to a chain drive rear end that would lessen weight and cost.
Bring back a entry level 50 class with a decent handling bike and no mods allowed again to keep costs down. Some of those 50's have more mods than a factory bike. Think I'll just find a blown up older KTM and convert it to electric myself. I know a guy who owns a Solar panel store and races a full blown open wheel electric race car. Lite, quiet and decent handling that should come in at well under $4G
I agree with you and feel like I understand what you're looking. My 6 yr old is on a TTR50. We ain't going racing, and if if if if we did it would be on a very non competitive level. Currently he just rides on our property. I was thinking just last week when he starts maxing it out I guess I'd get him a KTM 50. I thought that would be a good next move after he's "mastered" his little 50. Per KTMs website it was 4 grand, let's say that changed my tune. I also agree that shifting for him is annoying. I've adjusted the auto clutch and made it a little better but not enough better as he still can't shift on the fly. Just wish there was something like a KTM50 that ain't 4g.
kzizok
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kzizok 9/24/2017 4:49pm
9/24/2017 4:49pm
^^^^^Try finding a KTM mini-adventure. Same basic chassis, but a milder air cooled motor. Also, look for a Polini x3p or x5p air.
FTB
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FTB 9/24/2017 5:54pm
9/24/2017 5:54pm Edited Date/Time 9/24/2017 5:58pm
JustMX wrote:
Why in the hell would anybody think that having the 50cc classes follow the path that the 125 and 250 classes have taken is a good...
Why in the hell would anybody think that having the 50cc classes follow the path that the 125 and 250 classes have taken is a good idea.

Our sport doest need another high strung, high maintenance "entry level" machine.

It needs something a little updated from the pw 50.
A little stouter, for heavier and taller riders. With bulletproof engines, clutches, and suspension.
It needs to be at most, 7 hp, and it needs sanctioning and promoting organizations that will enforce strict stock rules.

Putting kids as young as 4 on machines with 9+ hp is idiocy.
We have the fastest Rookie sprint karts in the world. Watching the kids (7+) race them is mind blowing, they can do up to 120ks in a straight line, they corner at 100ks (60mph), but the most impressive thing to watch is their race craft. Something most AMA MX riders don't have.

One thing parents of this generation lack is having faith in their childs ability. Give them the chance and they will surprise you.
wfo4ever
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wfo4ever 9/24/2017 6:28pm
9/24/2017 6:28pm
newmann wrote:
What, no love for the CB50R? [img]https://cdn2.mecum.com/auctions/lv0117/lv0117-262728/images/lv0117-262728_1.jpg[/img]
What, no love for the CB50R?

Don't forget about the Honda MR-50 Elsinore.


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wfo4ever 9/24/2017 6:36pm
9/24/2017 6:36pm
Dropbear wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/23/216390/s1200_IMG_3581.jpg[/img] Put 10" wheels on one of these. We used to do that in Australia, if there were parity rules back then it would have made...


Put 10" wheels on one of these. We used to do that in Australia, if there were parity rules back then it would have made a great 50cc class bike.
Underground wrote:
The price of those things is about the same as new KTM 50 these days.
The 1973 Honda XR-75 is one of my all time favorite motorcycles. This is a photo of my original 1973 Honda XR-75. Did Powroll ever make a 50cc sleeve kit for these? I know they made big bore kits and a lot of other items.

BobPA
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BobPA 9/24/2017 6:42pm
9/24/2017 6:42pm
JustMX wrote:
Why in the hell would anybody think that having the 50cc classes follow the path that the 125 and 250 classes have taken is a good...
Why in the hell would anybody think that having the 50cc classes follow the path that the 125 and 250 classes have taken is a good idea.

Our sport doest need another high strung, high maintenance "entry level" machine.

It needs something a little updated from the pw 50.
A little stouter, for heavier and taller riders. With bulletproof engines, clutches, and suspension.
It needs to be at most, 7 hp, and it needs sanctioning and promoting organizations that will enforce strict stock rules.

Putting kids as young as 4 on machines with 9+ hp is idiocy.
FTB wrote:
We have the fastest Rookie sprint karts in the world. Watching the kids (7+) race them is mind blowing, they can do up to 120ks in...
We have the fastest Rookie sprint karts in the world. Watching the kids (7+) race them is mind blowing, they can do up to 120ks in a straight line, they corner at 100ks (60mph), but the most impressive thing to watch is their race craft. Something most AMA MX riders don't have.

One thing parents of this generation lack is having faith in their childs ability. Give them the chance and they will surprise you.
It is a lot easier to have faith in your child's ability when they are surrounded by a cage....
Dropbear
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Dropbear 9/24/2017 6:43pm
9/24/2017 6:43pm
Dropbear wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/23/216390/s1200_IMG_3581.jpg[/img] Put 10" wheels on one of these. We used to do that in Australia, if there were parity rules back then it would have made...


Put 10" wheels on one of these. We used to do that in Australia, if there were parity rules back then it would have made a great 50cc class bike.
Underground wrote:
The price of those things is about the same as new KTM 50 these days.
wfo4ever wrote:
The 1973 Honda XR-75 is one of my all time favorite motorcycles. This is a photo of my original 1973 Honda XR-75. Did Powroll ever make...
The 1973 Honda XR-75 is one of my all time favorite motorcycles. This is a photo of my original 1973 Honda XR-75. Did Powroll ever make a 50cc sleeve kit for these? I know they made big bore kits and a lot of other items.

JB Racing made a 60cc sleeve kit that Jeff Ward raced.
JustMX
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JustMX 9/24/2017 6:44pm
9/24/2017 6:44pm
FTB wrote:
We have the fastest Rookie sprint karts in the world. Watching the kids (7+) race them is mind blowing, they can do up to 120ks in...
We have the fastest Rookie sprint karts in the world. Watching the kids (7+) race them is mind blowing, they can do up to 120ks in a straight line, they corner at 100ks (60mph), but the most impressive thing to watch is their race craft. Something most AMA MX riders don't have.

One thing parents of this generation lack is having faith in their childs ability. Give them the chance and they will surprise you.
If you want young riders to learn race craft, keep them on the pw 50s. It teaches them line selection and keeping momentum.
FTB
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FTB 9/24/2017 6:59pm
9/24/2017 6:59pm Edited Date/Time 9/24/2017 7:00pm
JustMX wrote:
Why in the hell would anybody think that having the 50cc classes follow the path that the 125 and 250 classes have taken is a good...
Why in the hell would anybody think that having the 50cc classes follow the path that the 125 and 250 classes have taken is a good idea.

Our sport doest need another high strung, high maintenance "entry level" machine.

It needs something a little updated from the pw 50.
A little stouter, for heavier and taller riders. With bulletproof engines, clutches, and suspension.
It needs to be at most, 7 hp, and it needs sanctioning and promoting organizations that will enforce strict stock rules.

Putting kids as young as 4 on machines with 9+ hp is idiocy.
FTB wrote:
We have the fastest Rookie sprint karts in the world. Watching the kids (7+) race them is mind blowing, they can do up to 120ks in...
We have the fastest Rookie sprint karts in the world. Watching the kids (7+) race them is mind blowing, they can do up to 120ks in a straight line, they corner at 100ks (60mph), but the most impressive thing to watch is their race craft. Something most AMA MX riders don't have.

One thing parents of this generation lack is having faith in their childs ability. Give them the chance and they will surprise you.
BobPA wrote:
It is a lot easier to have faith in your child's ability when they are surrounded by a cage....
Sprint Karts don't even have a roll bar Bob. If you go upside down, first thing to hit the ground is ya head Laughing .

I had a worked XR 75 back in the day, DG race pipe etc. I used to get my ass handed to me by YZ 50's
wfo4ever
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wfo4ever 9/24/2017 7:05pm
9/24/2017 7:05pm
I have always wonders why Kawasaki had a stranglehold on the 60cc class for so many years. Honda made CR-60's for a couple of years and just quit. Then KTM came along. It almost seems like the OEM's make backroom deals on who gets what to sell on some size bikes. Yamaha had the stranglehold with the PW-50 in the 50cc shaft drive class, while Honda just sold Z-50's, Suzuki JR-50's, and they could care less about 50cc racing. I often wondered if Honda stayed out of small kid 50cc racing because of what happened when they sold ATC's. Lot's of hurt kids, some even tragic, law suits were piling up, bad press, and the US government finally shut Honda's ATC market down for good in the USA. Honda had all the ATC's picked up from their dealers and shipped them to South America to be sold. Only the OEM's know the truth behind their actions.
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RandyS 9/24/2017 7:14pm
9/24/2017 7:14pm
slipdog wrote:
$700... I'm buying 2 for my twins 6th birthday next month. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/23/216292/s1200_Screenshot_2017_09_23_at_6.25.05_AM.jpg[/img] Slightly off topic, but I'm not spending $4k for a 50sx...
$700... I'm buying 2 for my twins 6th birthday next month.



Slightly off topic, but I'm not spending $4k for a 50sx...
Have you seen one run? At 88lbs they're 22lbs lighter than a CRF50 and it looks like extra batteries are about $200. Does anyone in Sac have them?
wfo4ever
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wfo4ever 9/24/2017 7:18pm
9/24/2017 7:18pm
FTB wrote:
Sprint Karts don't even have a roll bar Bob. If you go upside down, first thing to hit the ground is ya head :laugh: . I...
Sprint Karts don't even have a roll bar Bob. If you go upside down, first thing to hit the ground is ya head Laughing .

I had a worked XR 75 back in the day, DG race pipe etc. I used to get my ass handed to me by YZ 50's
Stock YZ-50's and RM-50's were very fast, modified ones were amazing. Once Yamaha came out with their first YZ-80's that was the beginning of the end of the Honda XR-75's dominating the racing scene. Those were great times to be growing up and riding though, lots of great memories. Then RM-80's and KX-80's were released. Honda XR-75's were by then were just "play bikes". Then Honda finally introduced the CR-80, but by then they were late to the party in the 80cc class.

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slipdog
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slipdog 9/25/2017 4:28pm
9/25/2017 4:28pm
slipdog wrote:
$700... I'm buying 2 for my twins 6th birthday next month. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/23/216292/s1200_Screenshot_2017_09_23_at_6.25.05_AM.jpg[/img] Slightly off topic, but I'm not spending $4k for a 50sx...
$700... I'm buying 2 for my twins 6th birthday next month.



Slightly off topic, but I'm not spending $4k for a 50sx...
RandyS wrote:
Have you seen one run? At 88lbs they're 22lbs lighter than a CRF50 and it looks like extra batteries are about $200. Does anyone in Sac...
Have you seen one run? At 88lbs they're 22lbs lighter than a CRF50 and it looks like extra batteries are about $200. Does anyone in Sac have them?
I called the local SSR dealer in Rancho but he didn't have any in stock. I got the impression he was an anti electric guy because he just wanted to sell me a gas bike even when i told him I was only interested in E for my property. He couldn't give me any info on availability of extra batteries and motors either so I gathered he wasn't the place to deal with.

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