Why dropping 2 races/scoring on 22 Motos helps improve the Nationals

6/20/2017 9:57am Edited Date/Time 6/20/2017 9:57am
TXDirt wrote:
Go look at the charts I made and tell me how that is fair. Or better yet how is that a gauge of who is top...
Go look at the charts I made and tell me how that is fair. Or better yet how is that a gauge of who is top dog? There is also no prevalence of equipment failures anymore. Unless you are Pro Circuit or Tomac!!
Nothing in life is "fair." Factory teams with 100 times the resources of privateers is hardly "fair." I don't much concern myself with fairness, because there's really no such thing.

I think you missed my point, so I'll make it one more time. You are correct, there is no prevalence of equipment failures anymore. That's true. That's why the FIM went to an all-results-count system a long time ago (I just don't know when, exactly). However ... nowadays ... injuries are the new equipment failure. This, I suspect, is why the original poster suggested a return to an "X best finishes count" system, and I think the idea, in the context of modern motocross, is worthy of consideration.

What kinda shocks me is that almost no one seems to know that such points systems used to be commonplace. It's not some new-fangled gimmick like a "chase format" (a term that NASCAR doesn't even use anymore). But, hey, over the winter I discovered that lotsa people here had never heard of (and didn't understand) team orders either, so ...

deluxeman
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6/20/2017 10:02am
deluxeman wrote:
This maybe the single most stupid points keeping idea ever. It helps the choker and punishes the consistent rider. Why on earth would you want to...
This maybe the single most stupid points keeping idea ever. It helps the choker and punishes the consistent rider. Why on earth would you want to punish a rider that shows up and works hard to get good results every race, and then reward someone that chokes or is a crasher?

Sounds like somebody is salty that Tomac choked in SX and lost the championship. Glad your not a Roczen fan you would have them throw out their worst 15 races so Kenny could have won the 2017 SX championship.

twotwosix wrote:
Not quite Bubba, I don't really like Tomac that much. He's mentally weak and doesn't have the grit needed to dominate like a RC or Villo...
Not quite Bubba, I don't really like Tomac that much. He's mentally weak and doesn't have the grit needed to dominate like a RC or Villo. I was cheering for Dungey in SX.
I still think it is a stupid idea. Why not just reset the points back to zero before the last 4 rounds. That way everyone has a chance to win the championship, it would tighten up the points at the end and the guys could just coast through the first 2/3rds of the season and be fresh when it counts. You know why......because it's a dumb idea too.

It's racing guys, the first one to the stripe gets the most points, and the points go down from there depending on your finishing place. At the end of the season the guy with the biggest pile of points gets to be the Champ. How hard is this to understand? Bad luck, break downs, mental melt downs, injuries and crashes are all part of the game and it should be left as it is. If you can't put together an entire season of good rides you don't deserve to be the Champion, it's never been easy and it isn't going to get any easier. That's why we love competition, it pits man against man, head to head and may the best man win.
Ted722
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6/20/2017 10:13am
I get the idea of having more eyeballs on the series toward the end, but don't like dropping mistakes or mechanicals. Is there anyway that making the last 3 or 4 rounds double points would accomplish the same goal? So, a 25pt moto win would now be 50 , 2nd place 44, and 3rd 40, etc.
NV825
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6/20/2017 10:22am
I think both mx/sx should adopt something from golf where some of the more prestigious stops are considered "majors". There could be 4 total for each series and these races would have double the points for both motos. Maybe it's the opening and finishing rounds for each, and then the more famous races like Red Bud for mx and Daytona for sx.

The Shop

6/20/2017 10:23am
It's not complicated. You'd count their "X best finishes." Period. This used to be commonplace.

By the way, MXoN does the exact same thing (five best results count). Why isn't anyone freaking out over that?
TXDirt
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6/20/2017 10:38am
TXDirt wrote:
Go look at the charts I made and tell me how that is fair. Or better yet how is that a gauge of who is top...
Go look at the charts I made and tell me how that is fair. Or better yet how is that a gauge of who is top dog? There is also no prevalence of equipment failures anymore. Unless you are Pro Circuit or Tomac!!
Nothing in life is "fair." Factory teams with 100 times the resources of privateers is hardly "fair." I don't much concern myself with fairness, because there's...
Nothing in life is "fair." Factory teams with 100 times the resources of privateers is hardly "fair." I don't much concern myself with fairness, because there's really no such thing.

I think you missed my point, so I'll make it one more time. You are correct, there is no prevalence of equipment failures anymore. That's true. That's why the FIM went to an all-results-count system a long time ago (I just don't know when, exactly). However ... nowadays ... injuries are the new equipment failure. This, I suspect, is why the original poster suggested a return to an "X best finishes count" system, and I think the idea, in the context of modern motocross, is worthy of consideration.

What kinda shocks me is that almost no one seems to know that such points systems used to be commonplace. It's not some new-fangled gimmick like a "chase format" (a term that NASCAR doesn't even use anymore). But, hey, over the winter I discovered that lotsa people here had never heard of (and didn't understand) team orders either, so ...

Okay, so who is champion in this drop two motos scenario then?



6/20/2017 10:39am Edited Date/Time 6/20/2017 11:18am
Not this shit again.Sick

OMG, we're only 4 races into the series and there's whining because the "fastest" guy isn't leading the points chase.

Guess what? The "fastest" guy doesn't always win the series and often doesn't DESERVE to win the series. Why? Because they fall down and hurt themselves or destroy their equipment because they want to be the "fastest" guy.

Need some examples...see Tomac, Lakewood, 2015. Or James Stewart in, well, almost any year. Or Roczen currently.

Age - 57 with 46 years of racing (and no participation trophies)





Katoomey
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6/20/2017 10:53am
Yeah, I'm an old school guy. Injuries and mechanical DNF's have always been a part of the sport. Why should we change it now? A part...
Yeah, I'm an old school guy. Injuries and mechanical DNF's have always been a part of the sport. Why should we change it now? A part of Motocross, to me, is building a bike that will last the whole race/moto/series, AND a rider having enough SMARTS not to crash. Dungey had enough smarts to consistently finish races and WIN championships. So far, Tomac has not demonstrated the same smarts. As for mechanical DNF's - who prepared their machine the best? Don't go fixing what ain't broke.
why does everyone always make these claims that Dungey is smart. Maybe Dungey is just a pussy when it come to letting it all hangout...maybe he doesn't have it in him to take risks. maybe thats all the faster he could go.. has anyone ever even considered that? smart and afraid sometimes look like the same thing.

just a random thought....I just think Dungey gets too much credit for being "smart". not everything is by design....
deluxeman
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6/20/2017 11:12am
Yeah, I'm an old school guy. Injuries and mechanical DNF's have always been a part of the sport. Why should we change it now? A part...
Yeah, I'm an old school guy. Injuries and mechanical DNF's have always been a part of the sport. Why should we change it now? A part of Motocross, to me, is building a bike that will last the whole race/moto/series, AND a rider having enough SMARTS not to crash. Dungey had enough smarts to consistently finish races and WIN championships. So far, Tomac has not demonstrated the same smarts. As for mechanical DNF's - who prepared their machine the best? Don't go fixing what ain't broke.
Katoomey wrote:
why does everyone always make these claims that Dungey is smart. Maybe Dungey is just a pussy when it come to letting it all hangout...maybe he...
why does everyone always make these claims that Dungey is smart. Maybe Dungey is just a pussy when it come to letting it all hangout...maybe he doesn't have it in him to take risks. maybe thats all the faster he could go.. has anyone ever even considered that? smart and afraid sometimes look like the same thing.

just a random thought....I just think Dungey gets too much credit for being "smart". not everything is by design....
Wow, just wow.
bultokid
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6/20/2017 11:20am
Drop 2 races, The Chase, SX Only, 30min motos.....man, glad I came up in the 70's - 80's

I hear ya though on trying to grow the sport, very daunting task in todays world. The professional presentation is light years ahead. Problem IMO is just trying to get new riders/families into the sport where as in the 70's seemed like every kid had a bike and we could ride just about anywhere without the hassles kids face today.
Johnny Depp
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6/20/2017 11:20am Edited Date/Time 6/20/2017 11:23am
Let's see how it would affect points battles so far this year 1/3 of the way through?

http://americanmotocrossresults.com/xml/MX/events/M1720/M1F2POINTSPOSIT…
ROUND 4 OF 12 - JUNE 17, 2017
450MX
1 4 Blake Baggett 155 6 8 8 2 3 1 1 2
2 25 Marvin Musquin 147 2 2 1 3 4 3 16 6
3 3 Eli Tomac 144 1 1 2 19 7 2 12 1
4 21 Jason Anderson 129 39 6 5 1 2 6 5 3
5 20 Broc Tickle 115 7 7 14 4 8 8 4 4
6 19 Justin Bogle 112 8 10 12 5 1 9 7 9
7 15 Dean Wilson 110 10 4 6 7 9 7 9 7
8 33 Joshua Grant 106 3 3 3 28 38 5 3 11
9 14 Cole Seely 105 4 12 7 8 5 10 10 8
10 2 Cooper Webb 88 5 9 10 34 22 4 6 5
11 32 Weston Peick 76 12 11 9 6 12 13 8 38
12 30 Martin Davalos 71 15 13 16 9 10 11 13 10
13 51 Justin Barcia 69 11 5 13 10 6 12
14 40 Fredrik Noren 65 13 15 15 11 11 15 11 12
15 70 Dakota Alix 46 17 16 19 15 13 14 15 13
16 48 Christian Craig 37 9 14 4 29 37 39
17 111 Dean Ferris 29 2 14
18 68 Heath Harrison 23 20 18 21 13 15 16
19 244 justin hoeft 17 11 14
20 154 Brandon Scharer 15 19 23 23 33 14 17 33 19

Currently there are 3 riders with a good mathematical chance to win and are not more than 1 race win out of the lead although there is a 12 point spread. If each rider dropped their worst finish BB still leads but only by 1 point and there is a tie for 2nd and 3rd between MM and ET! JA is back in it and within 1 race win of the lead.
6/20/2017 11:28am Edited Date/Time 6/20/2017 11:29am
TXDirt wrote:
Okay, so who is champion in this drop two motos scenario then? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/06/20/201130/s1200_Capture3.jpg[/img]
Okay, so who is champion in this drop two motos scenario then?



What's the point of this? The "yellow" guy is champion, because he has more seconds. If wins are equal, then seconds, then thirds, and so on. All races potentially count in regard to tie-breakers, even though, realistically, that'd never be necessary.

Suggesting that we couldn't break ties is absurd. This is just noise. Formula 1 used a system like this (half the races, plus three, I think) for decades, and F1 is a million times more legit than AMA motocross is ever gonna be.

Again ... why no uproar over the MXoN?
TXDirt
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6/20/2017 11:41am
TXDirt wrote:
Okay, so who is champion in this drop two motos scenario then? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/06/20/201130/s1200_Capture3.jpg[/img]
Okay, so who is champion in this drop two motos scenario then?



What's the point of this? The "yellow" guy is champion, because he has more seconds. If wins are equal, then seconds, then thirds, and so on...
What's the point of this? The "yellow" guy is champion, because he has more seconds. If wins are equal, then seconds, then thirds, and so on. All races potentially count in regard to tie-breakers, even though, realistically, that'd never be necessary.

Suggesting that we couldn't break ties is absurd. This is just noise. Formula 1 used a system like this (half the races, plus three, I think) for decades, and F1 is a million times more legit than AMA motocross is ever gonna be.

Again ... why no uproar over the MXoN?
Why would the yellow guy be champion in this drop 2 format? After dropping two motos each, they both have an equal number of moto wins and second place finishes.

Is the current AMA tie breaker overalls? I honestly do not know exactly. Assuming it is overalls, then would rider B (blue) win the championship?

Dropping two motos is a one way "penality" basically. It penalizes consistency and rewards inconsistency.

Rider A has to give up 48 points, while Rider B is giving up 2 points.

I'm open to having my mind changed and appreciate the dialogue here. I'm just not convinced yet.
WhiteTaco
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6/20/2017 11:54am
It's not complicated. You'd count their "X best finishes." Period. This used to be commonplace. By the way, MXoN does the exact same thing (five best...
It's not complicated. You'd count their "X best finishes." Period. This used to be commonplace.

By the way, MXoN does the exact same thing (five best results count). Why isn't anyone freaking out over that?
Dropping x worst finishes or counting x best finishes are mathematically the same and have the same impact/results.
426Hemi
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6/20/2017 12:00pm
Exactly what I was thinking...Rider A drops two 0 point finishes, Rider B has to drop two 10 point finishes...guess who wins there?
6/20/2017 12:40pm Edited Date/Time 6/20/2017 7:42pm
WhiteTaco wrote:
Dropping x worst finishes or counting x best finishes are mathematically the same and have the same impact/results.
NO.

You seem to be assuming everyone shows up for 12 events and starts 24 motos. Not true, obviously. This kinda points system is not new, and the rules are written as "X best results apply to the championship" for a reason.

If you say, "Drop two lowest results," it'll be all of five minutes before someone says, "So what if you only run 10 events (20 motos)? You only get to count 18?" (That's obviously not the intent.)

In MXoN, a team doesn't actually "drop a score"; it takes its five best results (assuming it has that many). Last year, Team USA only had five results and didn't drop anything.
6/20/2017 12:52pm Edited Date/Time 6/20/2017 7:43pm
TXDirt wrote:
Why would the yellow guy be champion in this drop 2 format? After dropping two motos each, they both have an equal number of moto wins...
Why would the yellow guy be champion in this drop 2 format? After dropping two motos each, they both have an equal number of moto wins and second place finishes.

Is the current AMA tie breaker overalls? I honestly do not know exactly. Assuming it is overalls, then would rider B (blue) win the championship?

Dropping two motos is a one way "penality" basically. It penalizes consistency and rewards inconsistency.

Rider A has to give up 48 points, while Rider B is giving up 2 points.

I'm open to having my mind changed and appreciate the dialogue here. I'm just not convinced yet.
I am getting weary of saying "it's not complicated," but, really, it's not.

Overalls have zero effect on the championship. Each race is 100% independent. (Yes, second-moto results break overall ties, but that, again, has no effect on the championship.)

In your chart, Yellow Guy wins because he has 11 firsts and 13 seconds. Blue Guy loses because he has 11 firsts and 11 seconds. All motos potentially count for purposes of a tie-breaker (nothing is dropped), even though the chances of reaching that deep are far-fetched. (If everything matches up, the result of the final moto would break the tie, but, again, that would be even more far out.)

I'm not saying this is better, just that it's not a new idea, and it's one that was used in FIM motocross and F1 for a long time, and ... it's just not complicated.
mattmatt300
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6/20/2017 1:05pm
Maybe they should take it one step further and let the teams buy mulligans.
Falcon
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6/20/2017 1:21pm
No way. Champions are awarded their titles because they made the most points. Being there and scoring points at every race is part of the equation. Tallying every race is the purest way to determine a champion.

If you want a safer series, drop a few Supercross rounds and hold events at larger intervals with more breaks between races.
6/20/2017 1:25pm Edited Date/Time 6/20/2017 1:31pm
Falcon wrote:
No way. Champions are awarded their titles because they made the most points. Being there and scoring points at every race is part of the equation...
No way. Champions are awarded their titles because they made the most points. Being there and scoring points at every race is part of the equation. Tallying every race is the purest way to determine a champion.

If you want a safer series, drop a few Supercross rounds and hold events at larger intervals with more breaks between races.
Hell yeah. Disband Supercross outright and have an 18-event motocross season spread across six or seven months.

Supercross is the worst thing that ever happened to this sport, and that freak show, more than anything else, is why I watch MXGP foremost. It's a great series, and it's implemented the right way. (Still too many injuries, though.)
6/20/2017 2:38pm
I like how people assume this thread is all because of Tomac as if there hasn't been numerous times where a mechanical takes someone out of title contention way before and since he started racing lol.

I'm not exactly for or against dropping the worst scores but it does kind of piss me off when you see a guy work his ass off and a mechanical is what decides it. MM25 at Indiana in 2015 comes to mind.
Falcon
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6/20/2017 2:54pm
I like how people assume this thread is all because of Tomac as if there hasn't been numerous times where a mechanical takes someone out of...
I like how people assume this thread is all because of Tomac as if there hasn't been numerous times where a mechanical takes someone out of title contention way before and since he started racing lol.

I'm not exactly for or against dropping the worst scores but it does kind of piss me off when you see a guy work his ass off and a mechanical is what decides it. MM25 at Indiana in 2015 comes to mind.
True, but MX has always been about man AND machine. You have to finish to get good scores.
Johnny Depp
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6/20/2017 5:22pm Edited Date/Time 6/20/2017 5:23pm
Everybody uses manufactured entertainment these days. Somehow Moto is too honest and pure to tilt the table a bit. I can't believe the owners of this business (promoters) even need to be coached in this direction when it is absolutely in their best interest to sell tickets and TV commercials.

I hate to break it to some of you, but the news is fake, the home remodeling and housewife shows are scripted.

Indy mxer
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6/20/2017 6:39pm
Everybody uses manufactured entertainment these days. Somehow Moto is too honest and pure to tilt the table a bit. I can't believe the owners of this...
Everybody uses manufactured entertainment these days. Somehow Moto is too honest and pure to tilt the table a bit. I can't believe the owners of this business (promoters) even need to be coached in this direction when it is absolutely in their best interest to sell tickets and TV commercials.

I hate to break it to some of you, but the news is fake, the home remodeling and housewife shows are scripted.

So playoffs are manufactured entertainment? Hmmm, all this time I thought it was to add excitement to the end of a season and finish on a high note. MX usually ends with a yawn.
Hut
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6/20/2017 6:51pm
lostboy819 wrote:
I have always been against dropping races and glad that they have never changed it so that you get a couple throwaways . You don't win...
I have always been against dropping races and glad that they have never changed it so that you get a couple throwaways . You don't win championships on your good days, you win then on your bad days.
This is exactly why this crap should never happen. 24 motos matter

49 years
redrider400
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6/21/2017 12:46am
I like the idea but the races that could be dropped should have to be decided before the last round or maybe before the last two rounds. Would make it more interesting.
MXWebmaster
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6/21/2017 4:20am
Katoomey wrote:
why does everyone always make these claims that Dungey is smart. Maybe Dungey is just a pussy when it come to letting it all hangout...maybe he...
why does everyone always make these claims that Dungey is smart. Maybe Dungey is just a pussy when it come to letting it all hangout...maybe he doesn't have it in him to take risks. maybe thats all the faster he could go.. has anyone ever even considered that? smart and afraid sometimes look like the same thing.

just a random thought....I just think Dungey gets too much credit for being "smart". not everything is by design....
No, Dungey was extremely smart. How many championships did he win just by being extremely consistent? A lot of them. As for being "afraid". I don't think so. The guy raced at the very top of the sport for years, and was faster than 95-98% of every other rider during that period. The only riders that I think were ever faster (while Dungey was racing) were Villopoto, Tomac, Roczen and Bubba. You're not able to ride that "fast", by being afraid. Think about it.

As for Dungey getting too much credit for being smart - I've always thought the exact opposite - I've always thought that he never received ENOUGH credit for how smart he really was.

Katoomey
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6/24/2017 9:25am
No, Dungey was extremely smart. How many championships did he win just by being extremely consistent? A lot of them. As for being "afraid". I don't...
No, Dungey was extremely smart. How many championships did he win just by being extremely consistent? A lot of them. As for being "afraid". I don't think so. The guy raced at the very top of the sport for years, and was faster than 95-98% of every other rider during that period. The only riders that I think were ever faster (while Dungey was racing) were Villopoto, Tomac, Roczen and Bubba. You're not able to ride that "fast", by being afraid. Think about it.

As for Dungey getting too much credit for being smart - I've always thought the exact opposite - I've always thought that he never received ENOUGH credit for how smart he really was.

well, a smart racer also knows sometimes hes gotta drop the hammer. Never seen Dungey ever once hang it out to win a race. You talk about the championships he won. What about the championships he lost? How smart was he being then?

...and you are a fool if you think guys at the top don't have fear. I just listened to two legends of the sport (Reed, Vuillemin) tell us all how scared they are of Larocco's Leap. David Vuillemins's dad called him a pussy because he wouldn't hit it.

so Dungey is super smart, but has no fear? lol, thats a contradiction. Its dumb people who have no fear. being a motocrosser (or other things) is about overcoming your fears.

either way, my only point was you'll never know whether Dungey rode conservatively on purpose, or because he couldn't do it any other way, and to claim you do know that, is laughable.

i mean, if you are saying that Dungey could have went faster, but didn't, at any point in his career, I neither believe that, nor would I respect that if found to be the truth.


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