Fix the Points System

Johnny Depp
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5/2/2017 7:21pm
I am voting for 1 throw away to begin with, then review its results to consider another.
That is but one change that could make an impact and be better than a chase.
MX Guy
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5/2/2017 7:27pm
Remember Steel City 01? Come on dudes. You know a title is not over until the last round. I'll admit I was ready to hand it to Eli (still am kind of) but we got one round and nine points for a tie breaker in which Eli would win of course. Just let them race then let's talk about it!
Beeby
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5/2/2017 7:36pm
This is a motorsport, it's (usually) widely accepted that anything can happen in motorsport.

Everyone that competes does so under the same terms, rules and points.

Dungey is leading the championship. Simple as that.

You cannot adopt the points system to make someone else the leader. Everyone has a fat opportunity to be where he is.

Move on
wreckitrandy
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Granite Falls, NC, USA
5/2/2017 7:44pm
People speak of 'legacies' concerning top racers. This will be Dungey's. He did his job so well and people hated it so bad that they demanded the points system be 'fixed' and a chase/reset be implemented to keep him from winning.

The Shop

KirkChandler
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5/2/2017 9:11pm
If you change the point system to add more points to a rider winning the most and bonus points for heats or qualifying it will create a bigger spread in points most years.

Years where Stewart, Villopoto, Dungey, RC, Reed, MC won the most races and won the title, would have been even larger blow outs. The way the current system is you can win a title 2 ways, dominate and win more races, throw caution to the wind and hope you don't have too many bad races, or be a consistent presence on the podium and win when you can.

Jeff Stanton won 3 SX championships with a combined total of 12 wins in those seasons. In all 3 seasons there were riders that won more races. But his bad days were better.

Stewart won his 2 titles winning a combined total of 24 races. He overcame some massively bad races, but he out won everyone and Reeds consistency wasn't enough.

And Dropping a race would by BS. No mulligans this is motocross.

The MXDN kept changing their rules year after year to close the gap to Team USA in the 80s/90s, 2 throw away Moto's, 1 throw away, no throw away, 1 Moto, 2 motos, 3 Motos, 125/250/500, 125/250/250, Open, 250/450/450. Wonder when they will change the rules to hinder the French domination of the last 3 years?
malachi177
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B.C., BC, CA
5/2/2017 9:23pm Edited Date/Time 5/2/2017 9:27pm
Acidreamer wrote:
Tomacs brake locked causing him to crash. thats why cutting the line fixed the problem. If the rotor was damaged from the crash cutting the line...
Tomacs brake locked causing him to crash. thats why cutting the line fixed the problem. If the rotor was damaged from the crash cutting the line wouldnt have fixed It.
If the lever got damaged and kept the pads engaged....cutting said brake lines would solve the problem...crash induced! Tomac crashed upon landing and getting too much front brake...in a right hand corner. Only part of the front brake to touch would be the brake lever/master cylinder area. CRASH induced!!!

Stop being butthurt...you and gnarwhip should spoon ffs
KennyT
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5/2/2017 9:28pm Edited Date/Time 5/2/2017 9:47pm
My suggestion

Put all riders on same size bikes...450's or 250's

Afternoon qualifying sessions with ALL riders....no "Lites" class

Night program 4 main events.

2 for the top 22 which would be the points paying class for the SX title

2 motos for the support class. No points, just payouts. You don't make the top 22 in qualifying then u don't deserve points for the title.

This puts the top 22 riders at each SX in the same race.

Right now the program has some of the fastest riders in the Lites class, guys that could b top 5 or podium on a 450. And guys making the main in the 450 class that wouldn't make top ten n the lites.

bat981
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AU
5/2/2017 10:57pm
Beeby wrote:
This is a motorsport, it's (usually) widely accepted that anything can happen in motorsport. Everyone that competes does so under the same terms, rules and points...
This is a motorsport, it's (usually) widely accepted that anything can happen in motorsport.

Everyone that competes does so under the same terms, rules and points.

Dungey is leading the championship. Simple as that.

You cannot adopt the points system to make someone else the leader. Everyone has a fat opportunity to be where he is.

Move on
agree. well said.
RG1
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GB
5/3/2017 12:01am
KennyT wrote:
My suggestion Put all riders on same size bikes...450's or 250's Afternoon qualifying sessions with ALL riders....no "Lites" class Night program 4 main events. 2 for...
My suggestion

Put all riders on same size bikes...450's or 250's

Afternoon qualifying sessions with ALL riders....no "Lites" class

Night program 4 main events.

2 for the top 22 which would be the points paying class for the SX title

2 motos for the support class. No points, just payouts. You don't make the top 22 in qualifying then u don't deserve points for the title.

This puts the top 22 riders at each SX in the same race.

Right now the program has some of the fastest riders in the Lites class, guys that could b top 5 or podium on a 450. And guys making the main in the 450 class that wouldn't make top ten n the lites.

I don't see how that would work when you have about 20 factory level bikes in each class when everyone is healthy. You'd end up with either 15-20 high paid, factory level guys not even racing for points, or more likely, we'd see the number of factory level rides decrease, meaning less riders getting paid, less people being employed.

My personal opinion is that the points system/race format is fine, the only thing I would like to see is a couple of changes to the 250 class. I think you should be able to ride whichever class you want, if you're a great 250 rider, then you should be able to stay on one. So I think that the 250 class should be open to anyone, people who are struggling for rides, like Wilson or Weimer at the beginning of the year can step down and find a ride and get paid to race. You could also make the 250 class all 17 rounds, but also have regional titles within that, kind if how they used to do it with the World/AMA championship
Katoomey
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5/3/2017 12:24am
Some of you are forgetting something very important. This is not just a sport. Its a motorsport. This isn't just about the athletes, it's about the machinery too. It's a test of speed and durability for the bike and skills and organization of a race team. Giving "throw away" races for something like a dnf isn't in the spirit of motorsport in my opinion. It should be hard, it should be grueling, on both man and machine. It's not all about on-the-bike talent.
5/3/2017 2:05am
People speak of 'legacies' concerning top racers. This will be Dungey's. He did his job so well and people hated it so bad that they demanded...
People speak of 'legacies' concerning top racers. This will be Dungey's. He did his job so well and people hated it so bad that they demanded the points system be 'fixed' and a chase/reset be implemented to keep him from winning.
Boom!


Johnny Depp
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5/3/2017 5:35am
If you change the point system to add more points to a rider winning the most and bonus points for heats or qualifying it will create...
If you change the point system to add more points to a rider winning the most and bonus points for heats or qualifying it will create a bigger spread in points most years.

Years where Stewart, Villopoto, Dungey, RC, Reed, MC won the most races and won the title, would have been even larger blow outs. The way the current system is you can win a title 2 ways, dominate and win more races, throw caution to the wind and hope you don't have too many bad races, or be a consistent presence on the podium and win when you can.

Jeff Stanton won 3 SX championships with a combined total of 12 wins in those seasons. In all 3 seasons there were riders that won more races. But his bad days were better.

Stewart won his 2 titles winning a combined total of 24 races. He overcame some massively bad races, but he out won everyone and Reeds consistency wasn't enough.

And Dropping a race would by BS. No mulligans this is motocross.

The MXDN kept changing their rules year after year to close the gap to Team USA in the 80s/90s, 2 throw away Moto's, 1 throw away, no throw away, 1 Moto, 2 motos, 3 Motos, 125/250/500, 125/250/250, Open, 250/450/450. Wonder when they will change the rules to hinder the French domination of the last 3 years?
Like, for a well reasoned argument. Still agree with a drop as a way to stop blowout seasons.
APLMAN99
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Tualatin, OR, USA
Fantasy
5/3/2017 5:38am
The best system, in any motorsport, is AVERAGE FINISH.

Points is dumb and not exactly accurate for what is trying to be determined.
So if a rider wins the opener and sits out the rest, he's the winner of the series...........
Johnny Depp
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Buda, TX, USA
5/3/2017 5:40am
KennyT wrote:
My suggestion Put all riders on same size bikes...450's or 250's Afternoon qualifying sessions with ALL riders....no "Lites" class Night program 4 main events. 2 for...
My suggestion

Put all riders on same size bikes...450's or 250's

Afternoon qualifying sessions with ALL riders....no "Lites" class

Night program 4 main events.

2 for the top 22 which would be the points paying class for the SX title

2 motos for the support class. No points, just payouts. You don't make the top 22 in qualifying then u don't deserve points for the title.

This puts the top 22 riders at each SX in the same race.

Right now the program has some of the fastest riders in the Lites class, guys that could b top 5 or podium on a 450. And guys making the main in the 450 class that wouldn't make top ten n the lites.

A little off the topic of points, but you seem like my long lost brother from another mother.

I would run a different night format, 80 riders 4 quarterfinals, then 40 riders for 2 semifinals, then 20 in the main(s).
Johnny Depp
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5/3/2017 5:44am Edited Date/Time 5/3/2017 5:46am
The best system, in any motorsport, is AVERAGE FINISH.

Points is dumb and not exactly accurate for what is trying to be determined.
APLMAN99 wrote:
So if a rider wins the opener and sits out the rest, he's the winner of the series...........
If you don't compete you are awarded last place, let's call it 23rd. Problem solved.

Jabroni you are clairvoyant. +1
toroP
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Cincinnati, OH, USA
5/3/2017 6:42am
Where was this "fix the points system" rally
prior to the season?
5/3/2017 7:04am
First place should be worth 25 and second place 20 then the points go down, winning only giving three more points than second is the only issue I see.
5/3/2017 7:14am
toroP wrote:
Where was this "fix the points system" rally
prior to the season?
this x100
APerry151
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5/3/2017 7:25am
nealb129 wrote:
Instead of bashing the system and crying about how the system is broke and rider x should be leading the series. Why don't you actually submit...
Instead of bashing the system and crying about how the system is broke and rider x should be leading the series. Why don't you actually submit a new points system to the AMA?? Seriously, if you have a better system let them hear it?

My suggestion
Fastest Qualifier-1 point
Heat Win - 1 Point
Win-10 points
2nd- 5 points
3rd- 2 points
4th and back - 0 points
4th or worse and you get nothing? You thought starts mattered before...

Make wins matter a little more, and make each pass worth 2 points (right now, after 5th each position is worth a point. Ex: 7th = 14, 8th equals 13.)

Heat win: 1 point
Mains:
25 first
20 second
18 third
16 fourth
14 fifth
12 sixth
10 seventh
8 eigth
6 ninth
4 tenth
2 eleventh
0 twelfth
bvm111
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5/3/2017 7:28am


Huevos
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5/3/2017 7:37am Edited Date/Time 5/3/2017 7:38am
It amazes me how many people are upset about Tomac losing this championship, and upset about Dungey winning it. Dungey is arguably the most bashed/disliked champion the sport has had and for the life of me I can't figure out what he's ever done to deserve it.
Acidreamer
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5/3/2017 8:06am
Acidreamer wrote:
Tomacs brake locked causing him to crash. thats why cutting the line fixed the problem. If the rotor was damaged from the crash cutting the line...
Tomacs brake locked causing him to crash. thats why cutting the line fixed the problem. If the rotor was damaged from the crash cutting the line wouldnt have fixed It.
malachi177 wrote:
If the lever got damaged and kept the pads engaged....cutting said brake lines would solve the problem...crash induced! Tomac crashed upon landing and getting too much...
If the lever got damaged and kept the pads engaged....cutting said brake lines would solve the problem...crash induced! Tomac crashed upon landing and getting too much front brake...in a right hand corner. Only part of the front brake to touch would be the brake lever/master cylinder area. CRASH induced!!!

Stop being butthurt...you and gnarwhip should spoon ffs
Lol even if thats what happened, his brake could have locked on its own causing the crash. Ive personally experienced a front brake locking when you barely pull it and staying locked till you flush it.

Oh and sorry for being a fan.
5/3/2017 8:47am
toroP wrote:
Where was this "fix the points system" rally
prior to the season?
Personally, I have been annoyed by the current style of weighted points system championship scoring for years. Ive mentioned it a few times here.

I am a Tomac fan.
I am NOT a Dungey fan.
And my opinion of the points system has NOTHING to do with who I root for. As I've said here, Dungey is the deserving champ by a mile.

I know they will never go to a "avg finish" points system. (it requires math and after all, they are marketing to the energy drink/monster truck crowd). If you think the asinine debates on this forum are bullshit now, can you imagine all the idiots trying to do the math on average finishes and the resulting mayhem that would cause? Logic isnt exactly most people's forte. Math is pretty cut & dry but nobody has ever let facts get in the way of a good argument around these parts.
5/3/2017 8:49am
The best system, in any motorsport, is AVERAGE FINISH.

Points is dumb and not exactly accurate for what is trying to be determined.
APLMAN99 wrote:
So if a rider wins the opener and sits out the rest, he's the winner of the series...........
See Johnny Depp's post.

No show or DNQ for the main? You get 23rd place.
5/3/2017 8:50am
Katoomey wrote:
Some of you are forgetting something very important. This is not just a sport. Its a motorsport. This isn't just about the athletes, it's about the...
Some of you are forgetting something very important. This is not just a sport. Its a motorsport. This isn't just about the athletes, it's about the machinery too. It's a test of speed and durability for the bike and skills and organization of a race team. Giving "throw away" races for something like a dnf isn't in the spirit of motorsport in my opinion. It should be hard, it should be grueling, on both man and machine. It's not all about on-the-bike talent.
100% correct.


5/3/2017 8:55am Edited Date/Time 5/3/2017 8:57am
Sachmo831 wrote:
The points system needs fixed because their favorite rider blew it last weekend.
Maybe that is the case for most. I think many struggle with the "fastest rider" losing to the "best racer".
Not the case for some of us. But it has been the debate for a long time. Bubba (fastest) vs everyone. And Dungey (best racer) vs Everyone. Ironically, at the end of the day, the system I would like to see reveals Dungey to be more dominant than people think.

I am not a Dungey fan. And a "avg points" scoring system would make his lead even greater in this championship.

He's the deserving champ. What's fair is fair. An "avg points" metric ensures it in the most fair way IMO.
Katoomey
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5/3/2017 10:20am
Maybe that is the case for most. I think many struggle with the "fastest rider" losing to the "best racer". Not the case for some of...
Maybe that is the case for most. I think many struggle with the "fastest rider" losing to the "best racer".
Not the case for some of us. But it has been the debate for a long time. Bubba (fastest) vs everyone. And Dungey (best racer) vs Everyone. Ironically, at the end of the day, the system I would like to see reveals Dungey to be more dominant than people think.

I am not a Dungey fan. And a "avg points" scoring system would make his lead even greater in this championship.

He's the deserving champ. What's fair is fair. An "avg points" metric ensures it in the most fair way IMO.
it is just your opinion, you are right about that. you say it's fair. I say any rule that anyone agrees to is fair.

if average finish is your metric, then the value between each position is identical. meaning the difference between 20th place an 19th place is valued identically to the difference between 1st and 2nd place.

I absolutely don't agree with that. I value the difference between 1st and 2nd much higher than the difference between 2nd and 3rd. ...and obviously so does every racing organization to ever exist, because the difference in points between 1st and 2nd is never the same as the difference in points between 2nd and 3rd.
danman
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Readstown, WI, USA
5/3/2017 10:50am
The ONLY change I'd make to the point system is to give a point for EACH heat race win. Nothing for Semi's or LCQ. I think that would make for more interesting heat races.
tprice07
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Fort Dodge, IA, USA
5/3/2017 10:53am
Beeby wrote:
This is a motorsport, it's (usually) widely accepted that anything can happen in motorsport. Everyone that competes does so under the same terms, rules and points...
This is a motorsport, it's (usually) widely accepted that anything can happen in motorsport.

Everyone that competes does so under the same terms, rules and points.

Dungey is leading the championship. Simple as that.

You cannot adopt the points system to make someone else the leader. Everyone has a fat opportunity to be where he is.

Move on
bat981 wrote:
agree. well said.
This is entertainment. It isn't the Olympics. Without entertaining, the motorsport doesn't exist.

I want people going balls to the wall all out. Taking chances, pushing the limits. NOT, riding conservative..taking a 3rd...settling bla bla...only way to do that is to allow for a drop race. The mechanical failure that Tomac had would have changed the entire dynamic of the championship. Musquin's sickness at a round would have been dropped. Beyond that, if someone isn't feeling it that race they aren't going to be forced to ride in a dangerous situation. Just let that be the drop.

Boom, drop worst race or two. Dungey would have been forced to go faster in order to win the championship. Chasing down Tomac or Musquin would have given us a much better battle. Instead...Dungey plays it safe and walks away with it. WOW so fun to watch.
KennyT
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5/3/2017 11:11am
KennyT wrote:
My suggestion Put all riders on same size bikes...450's or 250's Afternoon qualifying sessions with ALL riders....no "Lites" class Night program 4 main events. 2 for...
My suggestion

Put all riders on same size bikes...450's or 250's

Afternoon qualifying sessions with ALL riders....no "Lites" class

Night program 4 main events.

2 for the top 22 which would be the points paying class for the SX title

2 motos for the support class. No points, just payouts. You don't make the top 22 in qualifying then u don't deserve points for the title.

This puts the top 22 riders at each SX in the same race.

Right now the program has some of the fastest riders in the Lites class, guys that could b top 5 or podium on a 450. And guys making the main in the 450 class that wouldn't make top ten n the lites.

RG1 wrote:
I don't see how that would work when you have about 20 factory level bikes in each class when everyone is healthy. You'd end up with...
I don't see how that would work when you have about 20 factory level bikes in each class when everyone is healthy. You'd end up with either 15-20 high paid, factory level guys not even racing for points, or more likely, we'd see the number of factory level rides decrease, meaning less riders getting paid, less people being employed.

My personal opinion is that the points system/race format is fine, the only thing I would like to see is a couple of changes to the 250 class. I think you should be able to ride whichever class you want, if you're a great 250 rider, then you should be able to stay on one. So I think that the 250 class should be open to anyone, people who are struggling for rides, like Wilson or Weimer at the beginning of the year can step down and find a ride and get paid to race. You could also make the 250 class all 17 rounds, but also have regional titles within that, kind if how they used to do it with the World/AMA championship
I understand concern for some riders losing rides.

I feel that out of the 80 currently making the night program there is only 40 or so that are worthy of performing in front of thousands of spectators. Let those that aren't qualified try and make their living in lower series just like most motor sports operate.

Another option if they were to keep the Lites is to combine it into 1 National Championship and not two split series. It's just lacking the talent to spread it out into East/West

And don't get me wrong. ANY of these guys that can ride a SX track are extremely talented riders. Just feel that some need to progress a little further before being in the big stadiums

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