Budds Creek and the Civil War.

DC
Posts
3889
Joined
5/1/2009
Location
Morgantown, WV, USA
5/2/2017 5:58am Edited Date/Time 5/2/2017 5:59am
Bearuno, Brownstone, etc., very cool that you are also into our Civil War. I've read a lot too, but there's one book that I've read that puts a modern spin on it all, Tony Horwitz's "Confederates in the Attic." He spends a chapter on each Confederate state, talking about the significance of what happened there during the war, and then how it all looks and works today -- the way the war is remembered, the social dynamics of today, and why we can't seem to let go of it all the way they have in other places that have undergone a civil war. It's really good and easy to read, and since he was a war correspondent during the Serbian conflict, he know how to relate to what war is like, then and now...





And then there's another, much heavier book about how the Civil War changed the way we look at death in America, how we dealt with wholesale grief for the first time, and how things like ID'ing bodies, building monuments everywhere, getting Northern sons' bodies home, finding lost Southerners, and just how it changed the Army, the ideas of warfare in the early industrial age, and even the slightly creepy notion of the army of embalmers and opportunists that followed the soldiers as they went into battle... It's called "This Republic of Suffering" by Drew Gilpin Faust, and it's much heavier than the other book, but it will blow your mind.




Thanks, back to motocross.

DC
Racer X

1
doghouse
Posts
548
Joined
1/7/2017
Location
Virginia Beach, VA, USA
5/2/2017 6:21am
DC wrote:
NetMXer wrote, Although the track was named after the famous battle, Antietam was not on the property where the battle took place. I knew that! And...
NetMXer wrote, Although the track was named after the famous battle, Antietam was not on the property where the battle took place.

I knew that! And if I am not mistaken, by general rule of thumb, the winning side usually got to name the battle in the history books after the Civil War, and the North named their battles for the nearest natural landmark or river or body of water, and the South named them for the nearest town.... But Antietam Raceway was definitely not on the battlefield, regardless of whether you think of it as the Battle of Antietam or the Battle of Sharpsburg (and that's where that cemetery is).

I practically grew up on the Mason-Dixon Line, which separates North & South, so there is Civil War stuff everywhere around West Virginia (we started on the South's side, switched to North in 1863, still not sure which side most felt they were truly on) but I honestly studied and still read more about the World Wars in Europe. It's a Hemingway thing, I guess!

DC
Racer X
That's me as well. I am a Virginian, and a history minor, so I have a reasonable grasp on the Civil War, but WWII is more my wheelhouse. My grandfather was a huge Civil War buff. He was over the moon when Burns' miniseries came out.
doghouse
Posts
548
Joined
1/7/2017
Location
Virginia Beach, VA, USA
5/2/2017 6:23am
I live in Central Virginia. There are major battlefields everywhere. Make note that I went to college in Fredericksburg, and the campus literally/physically sits on Marye's...
I live in Central Virginia. There are major battlefields everywhere. Make note that I went to college in Fredericksburg, and the campus literally/physically sits on Marye's Heights, position of Longstreet's Corp during the Battle of Fredericksburg.
Stonewall Jackson territory.

Part of my family is from Fredericksburg. Did you go to Mary Washington?
maicocd
Posts
211
Joined
1/10/2008
Location
White Hall, MD, USA
5/2/2017 8:09am
I grew up racing at Antietam, Budd's Creek, Aquasco and also grew up (and remain) a big Civil War buff-- so I definately had to join in on this conversation... I also raced in Pennsylvania ( Hanover Speedway and Happy Ramblers) that were just a short distance from Gettysburg.

I even date back to racing my first race at the old Maryland Line track just a couple miles south of the Pennsylvania line off of 83 ( Route 439 exit for those not familiar where this track was).

My first race was the annual "Blue and Grey Race" which was a big rivalry race between District 7 and District 13 as I seem to recall. I even had a t-shirt as a kid from the race of a guy on an MX bike being "blasted" out of a cannon with a soldier in blue on one side of the cannon and a soldier in grey on the other side! (as a kid I loved that shirt!)

As has been stated, there is tons of civil war history in the area. I live in the area of the old Maryland Line track now, and one of my favorite spots just a few miles from my home is Hanover Junction train station-- noted for Lincoln having stopped here before as well as a target of JEB Stewart's Confederate Calvary trying to wreak havoc on Northern infrastructure and accumulating (or "appropriating") Northern supplies on the days leading up to Gettysburg.
The station is restored to its Civil War era appearance and the train tracks that carried Lincoln to deliver the Gettysburg address, and shuttled wounded soldiers from Gettysburg to hospitals in Harrisburg, York, Baltimore, etc are now a trail system for walking, running and cycling.

As DC stated-- the Budd's Creek Civil War connection is definitely it's proximity to John Wilkes Booth's escape route.
Our family tradition after the Budd's Creek National is to go stuff ourselves at Captain Billy's Seafood. As you wander your way through some still pristine southern Maryland farmland to the restaurant along the water, you will pass the historical marker noting Booth's (and accomplice David Herod's) ill fated days hiding out along the water before their eventual Potomac crossing in Virginia where the end awaited Booth and capture and hanging awaited Herod.

I guess I better end my history lesson and get back to work... I enjoyed this topic!

The Shop

DC
Posts
3889
Joined
5/1/2009
Location
Morgantown, WV, USA
5/2/2017 9:21am
maniocd, I am guessing our paths crossed at those tracks a few times growing up! I know Bill O'Reilly did a "Killing Lincoln" book or whatever, but for a really, really well-written book on John Wilkes Booth's escape and what a crazy 12-day chase that was, this is THE book: "Manhunt" by James Swanson.



And if you listen to books, Richard Thomas (John Boy Walton) reads this and it's amazing -- my mom and I listened to it while driving her motorhome to Loretta Lynn's a few years back and then we sat in the motorhome for a couple of hours the night we got there finishing up, it was great!

DC
Racer X

5/2/2017 10:26am Edited Date/Time 5/2/2017 10:29am
doghouse wrote:
Stonewall Jackson territory.

Part of my family is from Fredericksburg. Did you go to Mary Washington?
I did. Virginia Tech and Mary Washington. Good schools.

Oh, and just to be clear, Jackson had the Second Corps, which was deployed on the right, down river.
500guy
Posts
12469
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
USA
5/2/2017 10:38am
I just found the Audio book through my Library app ,
Barrett57
Posts
2270
Joined
8/31/2010
Location
GB
5/2/2017 10:48am
I love reading about this stuff. I've always wanted to visit Gettysburg.

There used to be a track I raced on not far (it might have been on it actually) from the first battle of the English civil war, the battle of Edghill, 23 October 1642.
5/2/2017 10:58am
Barrett57 wrote:
I love reading about this stuff. I've always wanted to visit Gettysburg. There used to be a track I raced on not far (it might have...
I love reading about this stuff. I've always wanted to visit Gettysburg.

There used to be a track I raced on not far (it might have been on it actually) from the first battle of the English civil war, the battle of Edghill, 23 October 1642.
For my taste, Gettysburg has too many monuments, particularly near the Federal center (the "high-water mark"), particularly the enormous Pennsylvania monument. Plus commercial stuff bumps right up to the national-park lines.



I've heard that Antietam is the best-preserved battlefield in the Eastern Theater, but I have actually never been there.
Day602
Posts
11
Joined
8/22/2010
Location
USA
5/2/2017 11:52am
Cool subject, Budd's is my home track. As DC stated John is a good as its gets with the civil war, he has a collection that he lends to museums. I moved from southern Maryland across the 301 bridge to King George a few years ago. My property is a mile north of the Rappahannock river and Port Royal Virginia. There was a ferry there during the war and this area was highly contested. Booth actually used this ferry to cross, the place where he was killed is located about 4 miles south of my house on 301. Later in the war the union set up pontoon bridges to Port Royal to move material. I've had a few friends metal detect on my land, and to my surprise numerous buttons and Minnie balls were found, indicating the union may have camped there.

My neighbor is Belle Grove plantation, the house James Madison was born in. This house was used both by the north and south at certain times. If you're going to Budd's and have time to sightsee, 45 minutes away is Stratford Hall where Robert E Lee was born. Right down the road from there is where George Washington was also born, Washington's boy hood home Ferry farm is located directly across from Fredericksburg. It's a bit sad to visit Marye's heights and realize most of the battle field has been built on, it would have been nice to see the city preserve that.

If you're a civil war buff, Fredericksburg and the surrounding area is a great place to visit. Also, a lesser known battle is Battle of Spotsylvania Court House, this involved some of the worst hand to hand combat in the entire war.

1
MudPup545
Posts
1700
Joined
11/14/2014
Location
Imlay City, MI, USA
5/2/2017 12:06pm
This has been some amazing stuff to read.
2
5/2/2017 12:08pm
Day602 wrote:
Cool subject, Budd's is my home track. As DC stated John is a good as its gets with the civil war, he has a collection that...
Cool subject, Budd's is my home track. As DC stated John is a good as its gets with the civil war, he has a collection that he lends to museums. I moved from southern Maryland across the 301 bridge to King George a few years ago. My property is a mile north of the Rappahannock river and Port Royal Virginia. There was a ferry there during the war and this area was highly contested. Booth actually used this ferry to cross, the place where he was killed is located about 4 miles south of my house on 301. Later in the war the union set up pontoon bridges to Port Royal to move material. I've had a few friends metal detect on my land, and to my surprise numerous buttons and Minnie balls were found, indicating the union may have camped there.

My neighbor is Belle Grove plantation, the house James Madison was born in. This house was used both by the north and south at certain times. If you're going to Budd's and have time to sightsee, 45 minutes away is Stratford Hall where Robert E Lee was born. Right down the road from there is where George Washington was also born, Washington's boy hood home Ferry farm is located directly across from Fredericksburg. It's a bit sad to visit Marye's heights and realize most of the battle field has been built on, it would have been nice to see the city preserve that.

If you're a civil war buff, Fredericksburg and the surrounding area is a great place to visit. Also, a lesser known battle is Battle of Spotsylvania Court House, this involved some of the worst hand to hand combat in the entire war.

Good post. A couple things ...

• Most of the development on Marye's Heights is the University of Mary Washington, which was founded in 1908. It's constructed from classic red brick, and if they were gonna build something up there, I can't think of anything that woulda been better. (I have a graduate degree from UMW.) As you probably know, a significant piece of the heights (between Hanover Street and Lafayette Boulevard and behind the stone wall) is preserved.

• I wouldn't classify the Battle of Spotsylvania Court House as less well known. The Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park comprises four major battlefields -- Fredericksburg, Spotsylvania Court House, Chancellorsville and the Wilderness, and they're all very well known to history buffs. Fredericksburg just happens to be the most urban.

All of these battlefields have earthworks that are very well preserved. (Just to be clear, most of the trench lines running southeast from Fredericksburg were constructed after the battle in December 1862, as Lee held the position until the following spring.)


Day602
Posts
11
Joined
8/22/2010
Location
USA
5/2/2017 1:16pm

" I wouldn't classify the Battle of Spotsylvania Court House as less well known. The Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park comprises four major battlefields -- Fredericksburg, Spotsylvania Court House, Chancellorsville and the Wilderness, and they're all very well known to history buffs. Fredericksburg just happens to be the most urban."

All of these battlefields have earthworks that are very well preserved. (Just to be clear, most of the trench lines running southeast from Fredericksburg were constructed after the battle in December 1862, as Lee held the position until the following spring.

You're right, I should have said most people who casually follow the history tend to forget about it. Normally the people I know to want to see Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville, I usually have to tell them not to miss that one either.

The confederate earthworks are pretty wild, it's amazing they held up so well over time. Really puts it into perspective when you have miles of trench lines stretching out.
5/2/2017 1:25pm
Day602 wrote:
" I wouldn't classify the Battle of Spotsylvania Court House as less well known. The Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park comprises four major battlefields --...

" I wouldn't classify the Battle of Spotsylvania Court House as less well known. The Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park comprises four major battlefields -- Fredericksburg, Spotsylvania Court House, Chancellorsville and the Wilderness, and they're all very well known to history buffs. Fredericksburg just happens to be the most urban."

All of these battlefields have earthworks that are very well preserved. (Just to be clear, most of the trench lines running southeast from Fredericksburg were constructed after the battle in December 1862, as Lee held the position until the following spring.

You're right, I should have said most people who casually follow the history tend to forget about it. Normally the people I know to want to see Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville, I usually have to tell them not to miss that one either.

The confederate earthworks are pretty wild, it's amazing they held up so well over time. Really puts it into perspective when you have miles of trench lines stretching out.
There's also a large artillery position on the Mary Washington campus, near William Street. That's the only preserved earthwork I know of on the otherwise unpreserved part of Marye's Heights.

You know, the Confederate left actually extended across what's now UMW, across the modern Route 1 Bypass, over the hill where the "new" Mary Washington Hospital sits, and all the way to the Rappahannock River, near where Fall Hill Avenue climbs the hill.
5/2/2017 1:36pm Edited Date/Time 5/2/2017 7:26pm
OK, one more thing about the F-burg battlefield. The southeast end of Marye's Heights, overlooking the visitor's center, is called Willis Hill, and it's high and steep, and it's terraced with brick stairs that help you climb up to the cemetery that's on the plateau behind it. Anyway ...

My ex and I used to drink at a bar downtown all the time. One Saturday night, at about 11:00 pm, I asked her if she wanted to walk through the town and climb up on Willis Hill. She was a good sport, and she knew damn well what I meant. So I'm thinking I'm pretty clever, because we're gonna be overlooking the lights of Olde Towne when we do the deed.

So we climb up that hill (not easy, mind you) and there are at least a dozen Mary Washington kids already up there doing the same thing. Lotsa beer bottles lying around, some girls bent over. We actually had to move along the top of the hill and find our own dark spot. Good times.


JBecker 72
Posts
1811
Joined
3/25/2014
Location
Eastern Panhandle, WV, USA
5/2/2017 1:55pm Edited Date/Time 5/2/2017 1:56pm
Few pics from Manassas when I stopped in last year. I live 10 minutes from here.





maicocd
Posts
211
Joined
1/10/2008
Location
White Hall, MD, USA
5/2/2017 2:17pm
DC wrote:
maniocd, I am guessing our paths crossed at those tracks a few times growing up! I know Bill O'Reilly did a "Killing Lincoln" book or whatever...
maniocd, I am guessing our paths crossed at those tracks a few times growing up! I know Bill O'Reilly did a "Killing Lincoln" book or whatever, but for a really, really well-written book on John Wilkes Booth's escape and what a crazy 12-day chase that was, this is THE book: "Manhunt" by James Swanson.



And if you listen to books, Richard Thomas (John Boy Walton) reads this and it's amazing -- my mom and I listened to it while driving her motorhome to Loretta Lynn's a few years back and then we sat in the motorhome for a couple of hours the night we got there finishing up, it was great!

DC
Racer X

DC-

Thank you for the book suggestion-- I always take a Civil War book (or two) on summer vacation and I'm definitely interested in grabbing this one... Thanks!

Don't know if you've had the chance to read it, but on a similar theme-- an interesting read is "Backstage at the Lincoln Assassination: The Untold Story" by Thomas A. Bogar.
My Civil War fascination and proximity to York, Pa. has lead me to becoming a regular monthly attendee at the York Civil War Roundtable. Among the interesting monthly topics and speakers, we get licensed Gettysburg Battlefield guides and Civil War book authors including Thomas A. Bogar last year to discuss "Backstage at the Lincoln Assassination".
He did exhaustive research on the little-known actors and actresses, stagehands, as well as the Ford Theatre owners and staff, as they all were the firsthand witnesses to what unfolded... It makes a unique perspective as these folks stories would be lost to time if not for someone like Mr. Bogar researching and sharing them. And while I admit that some of it can get a little too detail oriented-- definitely an interesting read for anyone. A friend of mine and his wife once owned Tudor Hall-- John Wilkes Booth's childhood home- in Bel Air, Maryland- so I'm sure that probably added to my interest.

And yes-- I'm sure our paths probably crossed years ago... Big Berm in Carroll County, Md and Shippensburg and Chambersburg were some of the other regular places we'd race... And I do remember you contributing to Cycling East back years ago too... That was a great cycle paper and its really cool that you had the chance to contribute to it...
I never in a million years thought I'd be part of a "Civil War and Motocross" thread as they have always been favorites but not likely to intertwine--- but that's Vital MX for you !!
Thanks again for recommending the book...



BMSOBx2
Posts
2087
Joined
2/18/2017
Location
Antioch, CA, USA
5/2/2017 4:53pm
Most interesting thread of the last 3 days.
1
JustMX
Posts
5301
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
5/2/2017 7:02pm Edited Date/Time 5/2/2017 7:11pm
Grew up in North Georgia. Lots of history there.

The great locomotive chase went through Calhoun where we lived.

Ended up doing a college term paper on the battle of Resaca, which happened just north of Calhoun. Spent time in a,library with an awesome archive with volumes of field reports from lieutenants on up the chain. Easy to see that a lot of them were stretched to their limit.
5/2/2017 8:23pm Edited Date/Time 5/2/2017 11:37pm
I know too much about this shit ...

While I know of no significant engagements east of Washington, DC (where Budd's Creek lies), I know a few more west of the city that are worth a visit if anyone's in the area. (These are in addition to the cataclysmic engagement at Antietam, which has been mentioned several times.)

Stuart's Raid on Rockville: In June 1863, J.E.B. Stuart attacked and captured a large Federal wagon train near Rockville, a suburb of DC. He did so while he was supposed to be screening Lee's Army as it advanced into the North, leaving Lee "blind" and resulting in the two huge armies making incidental contact near a small, and now famous, town in southern Pennsylvania. It was a cavalry raid, so there's no "battlefield" as such, but I'd imagine there's a history marker somewhere.

Battle of Monacacy: In July 1964, Jubal Early led a Confederate army into Maryland to threaten Washington in hopes of relieving pressure on Lee at Petersburg. This advance was delayed (bot not halted) at the Monacacy River near Frederick, Maryland (not to be confused with Fredericksburg, Virginia). The battlefield (not far from Antietam) is preserved as the Monacacy National Battlefield Park.

Battle of Fort Stevens: A few days after Monacacy, Early actually attacked Washington, DC, itself, but was stopped at Fort Stevens, which was part of the capital's defense system. (Abraham Lincoln actually witnessed some of the fighting in person.) Fort Stevens, which is partially preserved, is actually inside the DC city limits, if you can believe that (13th Street NW, near Rock Creek Park).
machine
Posts
6404
Joined
1/5/2011
Location
Collettsville, NC, USA
5/2/2017 9:04pm
DC wrote:
Route 234 (which the track is located on) was part of the escape route of John Wilkes Booth after he assassinated President Lincoln. Along the way...
Route 234 (which the track is located on) was part of the escape route of John Wilkes Booth after he assassinated President Lincoln. Along the way he stopped and was treated for the leg he broke jumping from the balcony to the stage at Ford Theater by Dr. Samuel Mudd, who was later tried for treason and sentenced to life in prison, even though he argued that he was simply doing his job as a doctor and not a collaborator. He was released after four years in prison in the Dry Tortugas off Florida because he helped save many in the prison from an outbreak of yellow fever (or maybe typhoid?) and not pardoned, but his reputation was ruined forever -- that's why people would say "your name is Mudd" when someone was tarnished or scandalized for generations to follow... His family is still trying to get him exonerated.

Antietam was a different track, on the northwest side of Washington DC, the complete opposite direction from Budds Creek. It was the site of the worst single day of bloodshed in American history, as someone mentioned above. There is a cool, off-battlefield graveyard there near Fredericksburg that has about 4,000 Union soldiers and maybe 500 Confederates, very sad and lonely place to visit if have time...

Johnathan is practically a scholar of the Civil War and could tell you much more. I am just a lifelong history buff and grew up driving to both tracks.

DC
Racer X

That's clear as Mudd sir.Smile

Good story,,I used to hate history when I was younger , but now I appreciate it.
robkinuk
Posts
4280
Joined
5/16/2007
Location
Ashbourne, GB
5/3/2017 3:01am
Great to read all this history of your country as a Brit. My wife Jo and I got to see some of these Civil War Battlefields ,Mannasus etc when over staying with DC at Morganstown and my art exhibition at Budds Creek MXDN.

Always thought the Civil War was fought a lot further South down in the Georgia area.
Fascinating time that shaped your history. There's a great TV series " American Railroad journeys" with English presenter, Michael Portillo that makes lots of reference to the Civil War in places it visits.
maicocd
Posts
211
Joined
1/10/2008
Location
White Hall, MD, USA
5/3/2017 7:34am
Of all of the crazy coincidences--- after having joined in here on the discussion a couple times yesterday, I just now noticed and realized that my avatar was of me racing at Antietam back in 1989 on a KX250...

That was taken along the fence line where the start merged into the long straight away.
1
5/3/2017 9:42am
I haven't been in a while but used to drive to Harpers ferry from time to time. Some of the old store's are still in service and the sight seeing is great.
5/3/2017 10:29am Edited Date/Time 5/3/2017 10:32am
robkinuk wrote:
Great to read all this history of your country as a Brit. My wife Jo and I got to see some of these Civil War Battlefields...
Great to read all this history of your country as a Brit. My wife Jo and I got to see some of these Civil War Battlefields ,Mannasus etc when over staying with DC at Morganstown and my art exhibition at Budds Creek MXDN.

Always thought the Civil War was fought a lot further South down in the Georgia area.
Fascinating time that shaped your history. There's a great TV series " American Railroad journeys" with English presenter, Michael Portillo that makes lots of reference to the Civil War in places it visits.
Oh, man, the key campaigns of the American Civil War were in Virginia -- as long as the Army of Northern Virginia was an effective fighting force, the war went on. And Virginia is the only state where the South had a string of major victories. In fact, Chickamauga (in northwest Georgia) was the one and only major Southern victory outside Virginia. Within Virginia, though, the list is pretty long.
BobbyM
Posts
21436
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
USA
5/3/2017 10:33am Edited Date/Time 5/3/2017 10:37am
MudPup545 wrote:
I know Mechanicsville is home of a Civil War battlefield​. But, is Budds Creek, the track itself built on or near it? Thanks in advance.
Trump wants to bring the civil war back up to current times.
4
5/3/2017 11:15am Edited Date/Time 5/3/2017 7:40pm
BobbyM wrote:
Trump wants to bring the civil war back up to current times.
Take your political bullshit somewhere else, douchebag.
3
MudPup545
Posts
1700
Joined
11/14/2014
Location
Imlay City, MI, USA
10/31/2019 3:55pm
Bringing this thread back because I finally had the opportunity to visit my first ever Civil War battlefield over the weekend. Just an incredible experience.






9
Airick
Posts
240
Joined
1/27/2017
Location
Hollywood, MD, USA
10/31/2019 5:05pm
I live about 5 miles away, and it wasnt a battle field. Checkout the Point Lookout civil war stories, its at the southern tip of St. Mary's county, and was a hospital of sorts. They used to do halloween tours...cause its supposedly haunted and stuff.

Post a reply to: Budds Creek and the Civil War.

The Latest