"Daytona wasn't a passing track"

mingham97
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Dungey 19-22 to 4
Baggett 19-22 to 7
Malcolm Stewart 4 to 16
Grant 16 to 8
Osbourne 9 to 4 (in 11 laps)
Renzland 15 to 9 in 11 laps

Those who were good, won. Those who started bad, did not necessarily finish bad.

Imagine this were moto GP and the race was 22 minutes, not 45. Those who qualify bad would not make many passes and it would have absolutely nothing to do with the track and whether it was a "passing track" or not.

What we are seeing in SX this year is 22 very fit riders on 22 bikes where the difference between their bikes is marginal, almost negligible, and they are all pushing to the extreme of man and machine. The exact same as Moto GP, F1 and any other form of elite racing.

If there is hardly a difference in rider ability (except Dungey is in a league of his own and Tomac above that. They pass plenty), then yes, passing will be very difficult!

This isn't 90s SX where it was sketchy as hell and a huge difference in the bikes. You will not see 22nd to 1st any more. SX is reaching an apex and if you don't like it then maybe it's time to stop watching and stop getting upset on here.



Edit: BTW, I'm not saying things couldn't be better, because I think they possibly could be. But that's not a professional opinion, nor do I know any of the industry CONSTRAINTS (something alot of you forget about), so I will keep them to myself and enjoy super-cross for what it is Smile


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Mit12
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3/11/2017 8:03pm
Malcolm 4th to 16th is classic!!!!!
Crush
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3/11/2017 8:03pm Edited Date/Time 3/11/2017 8:05pm
If you're gonna cite five out of the 40 riders who competed for mains, i'll take the other 87%.

There are always gonna be the elite dudes who push through, but to me, it's not that every dude should make 5 passes, that's unrealistic as you say... but even if they only make a couple, watching the races, these short straights just give no chance for dudes to even pull up on someone... you have no time to get a run. Then it's brakes.

And you guessed it, four strokes, they've got so much torque dudes aren't just missing obstacles left and right... and they're fast as hell so they try slow the tracks down.

At least the timed mains have removed the walls this year!
Flip109
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3/11/2017 8:06pm
Mit12 wrote:
Malcolm 4th to 16th is classic!!!!!
What is so classic about this??
mingham97
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3/11/2017 8:08pm
Mit12 wrote:
Malcolm 4th to 16th is classic!!!!!
I realise this was probably more of a fitness thing though but thats till 12 spots that he was passed on. And it happned in about 14 laps

The Shop

mingham97
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3/11/2017 8:12pm Edited Date/Time 3/11/2017 8:16pm
Crush wrote:
If you're gonna cite five out of the 40 riders who competed for mains, i'll take the other 87%. There are always gonna be the elite...
If you're gonna cite five out of the 40 riders who competed for mains, i'll take the other 87%.

There are always gonna be the elite dudes who push through, but to me, it's not that every dude should make 5 passes, that's unrealistic as you say... but even if they only make a couple, watching the races, these short straights just give no chance for dudes to even pull up on someone... you have no time to get a run. Then it's brakes.

And you guessed it, four strokes, they've got so much torque dudes aren't just missing obstacles left and right... and they're fast as hell so they try slow the tracks down.

At least the timed mains have removed the walls this year!
Yep, the other 87% finished about where they should. Take a look at the top 10 and the next 5 and the next 5. Apart from a few guys having bad weeks (Wilson, Tickle, Musquin) and a few guys having good weeks (Anderson, Barcia, Alessi).

I guess you could blame 4 strokes for evolving the sport to this point. But these guys get around the track so quick, that it's very hard to make a long straight away. They gotta slow them down with rhythm sections and turns, stop the riders from logging so many laps and destroying the track so much.

I guess that's why SX/MX fans, aren't always of fans MotoGP.
Crush
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3/11/2017 8:19pm
Yeah they're definitely trying to keep the speeds down... Years ago it was really odd if the length of the stadium wasn't run in one, now it's normal to have it cut in 2 with a short return on the end even...

And the torque is huge. They can jump this or that, even with a mistake. Think about how many passes were results of mistakes back in the day. We just don't see it.
Johnny Depp
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3/11/2017 8:23pm
When coming from behind on this track, a mouthful of "sandwich" could back the follower way off of you. That alone makes it damn hard to pass and almost always required an alternate line to avoid being sandblasted.
mingham97
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3/11/2017 8:29pm
When coming from behind on this track, a mouthful of "sandwich" could back the follower way off of you. That alone makes it damn hard to...
When coming from behind on this track, a mouthful of "sandwich" could back the follower way off of you. That alone makes it damn hard to pass and almost always required an alternate line to avoid being sandblasted.
Yeah the sand section was definitely an area of the track that was harder to pass but god it also cost ZO16 6 spots which made for an entertaining 250SX main event. It was a very entertaining section to watch as alot more dudes almost lost it and gave the races that uncertainty that a lot of people miss. Not just tripling through a rhythm section.
mingham97
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3/11/2017 8:33pm Edited Date/Time 3/11/2017 8:35pm
Crush wrote:
Yeah they're definitely trying to keep the speeds down... Years ago it was really odd if the length of the stadium wasn't run in one, now...
Yeah they're definitely trying to keep the speeds down... Years ago it was really odd if the length of the stadium wasn't run in one, now it's normal to have it cut in 2 with a short return on the end even...

And the torque is huge. They can jump this or that, even with a mistake. Think about how many passes were results of mistakes back in the day. We just don't see it.
Exactly. And its also the suspension of today too. Can you imagine a 90's and earlier privateer two stroke getting through todays track? All a privateer needs to do these days is a spring and revalve and he's basically A-kit

You would also see huge come from behind victories from great riders back in the day because you had factory level guys on the top of the line works (real works) bikes easily passing the 15 "pick up truck privateers" because they're bouncing everywhere like pogo sticks.
Mit12
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3/11/2017 8:47pm
Mit12 wrote:
Malcolm 4th to 16th is classic!!!!!
Flip109 wrote:
What is so classic about this??
Really? It was funny!
Crush
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3/11/2017 8:52pm
Mit12 wrote:
Malcolm 4th to 16th is classic!!!!!
Flip109 wrote:
What is so classic about this??
Mit12 wrote:
Really? It was funny!
Can confirm. It is funny.
bsharkey
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3/11/2017 8:53pm
Mit12 wrote:
Malcolm 4th to 16th is classic!!!!!
fitness is malcoms only shortfall he has the speed. if he gets that figured out I think he will be a lot like peick
ga_pike
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3/11/2017 8:57pm
I enjoyed the racing tonight and wish we had more "outdoor" SX races similar to Daytona on the SX schedule. I'd like to see themore drop a few of the stadium events in favor of places Texas Motor Speedway, Talladega, or maybe Bristol... places with plenty of seating but more room for a track just to mix it up. Daytona is a refreshing change of pace in what otherwise are very similar tracks inside the stadiums.
bama205
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3/11/2017 9:00pm
mingham97 wrote:
Dungey 19-22 to 4 Baggett 19-22 to 7 Malcolm Stewart 4 to 16 Grant 16 to 8 Osbourne 9 to 4 (in 11 laps) Renzland 15...
Dungey 19-22 to 4
Baggett 19-22 to 7
Malcolm Stewart 4 to 16
Grant 16 to 8
Osbourne 9 to 4 (in 11 laps)
Renzland 15 to 9 in 11 laps

Those who were good, won. Those who started bad, did not necessarily finish bad.

Imagine this were moto GP and the race was 22 minutes, not 45. Those who qualify bad would not make many passes and it would have absolutely nothing to do with the track and whether it was a "passing track" or not.

What we are seeing in SX this year is 22 very fit riders on 22 bikes where the difference between their bikes is marginal, almost negligible, and they are all pushing to the extreme of man and machine. The exact same as Moto GP, F1 and any other form of elite racing.

If there is hardly a difference in rider ability (except Dungey is in a league of his own and Tomac above that. They pass plenty), then yes, passing will be very difficult!

This isn't 90s SX where it was sketchy as hell and a huge difference in the bikes. You will not see 22nd to 1st any more. SX is reaching an apex and if you don't like it then maybe it's time to stop watching and stop getting upset on here.



Edit: BTW, I'm not saying things couldn't be better, because I think they possibly could be. But that's not a professional opinion, nor do I know any of the industry CONSTRAINTS (something alot of you forget about), so I will keep them to myself and enjoy super-cross for what it is Smile


You're the one bitching like an ex wife
Johnny Depp
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3/11/2017 9:02pm
Mit12 wrote:
Malcolm 4th to 16th is classic!!!!!
bsharkey wrote:
fitness is malcoms only shortfall he has the speed. if he gets that figured out I think he will be a lot like peick
Malcolm has average qualifying speed. He kicks it up a few notches when the adrenaline hits and it matters. When he goes into beast mode he can lap with the best, just not for long at his current level of conditioning.
kzizok
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3/11/2017 9:02pm
Mit12 wrote:
Malcolm 4th to 16th is classic!!!!!
Flip109 wrote:
What is so classic about this??
Mit12 wrote:
Really? It was funny!
Going backwards isnt a good representation of passing options.
Johnny Depp
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3/11/2017 9:02pm
ga_pike wrote:
I enjoyed the racing tonight and wish we had more "outdoor" SX races similar to Daytona on the SX schedule. I'd like to see themore drop...
I enjoyed the racing tonight and wish we had more "outdoor" SX races similar to Daytona on the SX schedule. I'd like to see themore drop a few of the stadium events in favor of places Texas Motor Speedway, Talladega, or maybe Bristol... places with plenty of seating but more room for a track just to mix it up. Daytona is a refreshing change of pace in what otherwise are very similar tracks inside the stadiums.
X2
mingham97
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3/11/2017 9:30pm
ga_pike wrote:
I enjoyed the racing tonight and wish we had more "outdoor" SX races similar to Daytona on the SX schedule. I'd like to see themore drop...
I enjoyed the racing tonight and wish we had more "outdoor" SX races similar to Daytona on the SX schedule. I'd like to see themore drop a few of the stadium events in favor of places Texas Motor Speedway, Talladega, or maybe Bristol... places with plenty of seating but more room for a track just to mix it up. Daytona is a refreshing change of pace in what otherwise are very similar tracks inside the stadiums.
Yep agreed
mingham97
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3/11/2017 9:31pm Edited Date/Time 3/11/2017 9:35pm
mingham97 wrote:
Dungey 19-22 to 4 Baggett 19-22 to 7 Malcolm Stewart 4 to 16 Grant 16 to 8 Osbourne 9 to 4 (in 11 laps) Renzland 15...
Dungey 19-22 to 4
Baggett 19-22 to 7
Malcolm Stewart 4 to 16
Grant 16 to 8
Osbourne 9 to 4 (in 11 laps)
Renzland 15 to 9 in 11 laps

Those who were good, won. Those who started bad, did not necessarily finish bad.

Imagine this were moto GP and the race was 22 minutes, not 45. Those who qualify bad would not make many passes and it would have absolutely nothing to do with the track and whether it was a "passing track" or not.

What we are seeing in SX this year is 22 very fit riders on 22 bikes where the difference between their bikes is marginal, almost negligible, and they are all pushing to the extreme of man and machine. The exact same as Moto GP, F1 and any other form of elite racing.

If there is hardly a difference in rider ability (except Dungey is in a league of his own and Tomac above that. They pass plenty), then yes, passing will be very difficult!

This isn't 90s SX where it was sketchy as hell and a huge difference in the bikes. You will not see 22nd to 1st any more. SX is reaching an apex and if you don't like it then maybe it's time to stop watching and stop getting upset on here.



Edit: BTW, I'm not saying things couldn't be better, because I think they possibly could be. But that's not a professional opinion, nor do I know any of the industry CONSTRAINTS (something alot of you forget about), so I will keep them to myself and enjoy super-cross for what it is Smile


bama205 wrote:
You're the one bitching like an ex wife
how? by bringing some logic and fact to shut down a common consensus? fact is a thing of the past around here
oshow
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3/11/2017 9:39pm
The track was extremely hard to pass on. You had to work very hard to pass
mingham97
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3/11/2017 9:46pm
oshow wrote:
The track was extremely hard to pass on. You had to work very hard to pass
It's not the track. Like I said, it's the difference in the rider and bike. There is very small difference between each of them. Surely it's not a fluke that every single track this year has magically been hard to pass on??
FARANG
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3/11/2017 9:48pm
Flip109 wrote:
What is so classic about this??
Mit12 wrote:
Really? It was funny!
Crush wrote:
Can confirm. It is funny.
I like Malcolm, but I still chuckled. Maybe even a chortle.
wfo4ever
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3/11/2017 9:52pm
Crush wrote:
Yeah they're definitely trying to keep the speeds down... Years ago it was really odd if the length of the stadium wasn't run in one, now...
Yeah they're definitely trying to keep the speeds down... Years ago it was really odd if the length of the stadium wasn't run in one, now it's normal to have it cut in 2 with a short return on the end even...

And the torque is huge. They can jump this or that, even with a mistake. Think about how many passes were results of mistakes back in the day. We just don't see it.
mingham97 wrote:
Exactly. And its also the suspension of today too. Can you imagine a 90's and earlier privateer two stroke getting through todays track? All a privateer...
Exactly. And its also the suspension of today too. Can you imagine a 90's and earlier privateer two stroke getting through todays track? All a privateer needs to do these days is a spring and revalve and he's basically A-kit

You would also see huge come from behind victories from great riders back in the day because you had factory level guys on the top of the line works (real works) bikes easily passing the 15 "pick up truck privateers" because they're bouncing everywhere like pogo sticks.
Suspension is a huge difference on bikes today. Stock suspension is so good on the new bikes these days, change out the spring for your weight, possible revalve, and you are good to go for most riders. Ohlins is located in the town near where I used to live. Ohlns is supposed to be good but they are very high priced, big bucks, I think they are from Europe or China. I never see factory or other teams use Ohlins products.. I heard they help out Team Tedder in Supercross., But not sure if that team has ever qualified for a main event? My son knew a guy named Matt Sage that works at Ohlins doing phone sales. If someone buys a shock from Ohlins or one of their dealers they say it will be set up for for the riders ability and weight. My son said all they do is change the spring sometimes, nothing else. He did tell me to call Ohlins USA and they would beat any dealers price. Just ask for his buddy Matt Sage and you can get hooked up below dealer cost. Matt Sage told my son Ohlins USA has also set up several people in the Hendersonville, NC area as official Ohlins dealers but they are really only working out of their home or garage selling Ohlins stuff at very low prices. It would save Vital members and friends some money if they are thinking about ever buying Ohlins for their bike and looking for a deal. I like to deal with Race Tech. They are good people and will treat you right for a lot less money.
Crush
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3/11/2017 9:54pm
oshow wrote:
The track was extremely hard to pass on. You had to work very hard to pass
mingham97 wrote:
It's not the track. Like I said, it's the difference in the rider and bike. There is very small difference between each of them. Surely it's...
It's not the track. Like I said, it's the difference in the rider and bike. There is very small difference between each of them. Surely it's not a fluke that every single track this year has magically been hard to pass on??
Almost every track this year has been littered with short straights, small berms, and ostacles that are only done one way...

Phoenix had options and had a ton of passing.
wfo4ever
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3/11/2017 9:57pm Edited Date/Time 3/11/2017 9:59pm
AC killed it tonight, so proud of him, he deserved that win as he really puts in the work. Mookie has the speed he just needs to train more. Also I hate it when someone gets passed and the rider just give up. The rider should fight like hell to get that position back and keep moving forward to the front.
MotoX85
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3/12/2017 3:09am
ummm, no
mingham97
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3/12/2017 4:23am Edited Date/Time 3/12/2017 4:28am
MotoX85 wrote:
ummm, no
ummmmm why

not to sound like ya missus, but every body has an opinion but can never back it up with anything. so unless you can some how prove me incorrect, then fuck along.

EDIT: Probably being too harsh there. I know now you're probably just trying to get you post count up
mingham97
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3/12/2017 4:37am
Crush wrote:
Almost every track this year has been littered with short straights, small berms, and ostacles that are only done one way... Phoenix had options and had...
Almost every track this year has been littered with short straights, small berms, and ostacles that are only done one way...

Phoenix had options and had a ton of passing.
Yeah Phoenix was a great track. And can definitely some what agree with that.
oshow
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3/13/2017 5:04am Edited Date/Time 3/13/2017 5:04am
oshow wrote:
The track was extremely hard to pass on. You had to work very hard to pass
mingham97 wrote:
It's not the track. Like I said, it's the difference in the rider and bike. There is very small difference between each of them. Surely it's...
It's not the track. Like I said, it's the difference in the rider and bike. There is very small difference between each of them. Surely it's not a fluke that every single track this year has magically been hard to pass on??
The track did not have a lot of passing options, and was very narrow in sections. This makes passing difficult.
aees
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3/13/2017 7:29am
Crush wrote:
Yeah they're definitely trying to keep the speeds down... Years ago it was really odd if the length of the stadium wasn't run in one, now...
Yeah they're definitely trying to keep the speeds down... Years ago it was really odd if the length of the stadium wasn't run in one, now it's normal to have it cut in 2 with a short return on the end even...

And the torque is huge. They can jump this or that, even with a mistake. Think about how many passes were results of mistakes back in the day. We just don't see it.
mingham97 wrote:
Exactly. And its also the suspension of today too. Can you imagine a 90's and earlier privateer two stroke getting through todays track? All a privateer...
Exactly. And its also the suspension of today too. Can you imagine a 90's and earlier privateer two stroke getting through todays track? All a privateer needs to do these days is a spring and revalve and he's basically A-kit

You would also see huge come from behind victories from great riders back in the day because you had factory level guys on the top of the line works (real works) bikes easily passing the 15 "pick up truck privateers" because they're bouncing everywhere like pogo sticks.
wfo4ever wrote:
Suspension is a huge difference on bikes today. Stock suspension is so good on the new bikes these days, change out the spring for your weight...
Suspension is a huge difference on bikes today. Stock suspension is so good on the new bikes these days, change out the spring for your weight, possible revalve, and you are good to go for most riders. Ohlins is located in the town near where I used to live. Ohlns is supposed to be good but they are very high priced, big bucks, I think they are from Europe or China. I never see factory or other teams use Ohlins products.. I heard they help out Team Tedder in Supercross., But not sure if that team has ever qualified for a main event? My son knew a guy named Matt Sage that works at Ohlins doing phone sales. If someone buys a shock from Ohlins or one of their dealers they say it will be set up for for the riders ability and weight. My son said all they do is change the spring sometimes, nothing else. He did tell me to call Ohlins USA and they would beat any dealers price. Just ask for his buddy Matt Sage and you can get hooked up below dealer cost. Matt Sage told my son Ohlins USA has also set up several people in the Hendersonville, NC area as official Ohlins dealers but they are really only working out of their home or garage selling Ohlins stuff at very low prices. It would save Vital members and friends some money if they are thinking about ever buying Ohlins for their bike and looking for a deal. I like to deal with Race Tech. They are good people and will treat you right for a lot less money.
Not sure it fits here, but Ohlins is Swedish and are huge in general within the racing industry. They do about 100 million USD per year in suspension for racing industry where MX/Enduro is one part. They started the company with that 30-40 years ago.

So their new 2017 Flow shock, and fork is dynamite. They do however very little high profile sponsor racing since it cost to much and give to little.

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