Electric start?

colintrax
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colintrax 5/9/2016 11:18pm
5/9/2016 11:18pm
kiwifan wrote:
lol In all seriousness if a dirt bike had smaller rotors (therefore less likely to get caught in ruts, lets face it the single discs are...
lol In all seriousness if a dirt bike had smaller rotors (therefore less likely to get caught in ruts, lets face it the single discs are getting damn big these days), with smaller calipers, that have (for arguments sake) the same braking power as one disc ...would that work?
I think you'd lose some feel, and have to double up on the brake lines. Extra unsprung weight, twice the wear parts, more upfront cost, and I think reduced feel... nobody would buy that. I've never bent a rotor and hell I'm a woods rider.
Underground 5/10/2016 4:39pm
5/10/2016 4:39pm
F150Motocrosser wrote:
While I'm sure each OEM has it's reasons for not yet integrating electric start to their bikes, I can't imagine not wanting to copy KTM is...
While I'm sure each OEM has it's reasons for not yet integrating electric start to their bikes, I can't imagine not wanting to copy KTM is one of those reasons. I could understand this on concept on things like the design/shape of their plastics, but not on something as critical as a push-and-go button over kick,kick,kick..
Mit12 wrote:
Electric start cost more to produce and weighs more. KTM is the lightest bike on the market and it has electric start. For Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda...
Electric start cost more to produce and weighs more. KTM is the lightest bike on the market and it has electric start. For Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda amd Kawasiki they would not only have the expense of the starter system but the cost in reducing even more weight.
have you weighed both systems? Personally while I have not weighed each, I've worked on each and with the LiPo batteries now the difference would be in a few grams maybe in KTM favor. This isn't 2002 anymore. Cost I'd agree on but having used both systems, I'll gladly pay the difference. There is NOTHING better. Especially after a crash mid moto.
bob567
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bob567 5/10/2016 4:50pm
5/10/2016 4:50pm Edited Date/Time 5/10/2016 4:50pm
This is KTM's sport. The other mcf's are just in it. Maybe next year Suzuki, Kawasaki and Honda start making a full line of two strokes, four strokes, factory editions, pee wees, auto's, 50's, 65's, 85's, 125's, 150's, 250's, etc. If they do that and drop the street bike frames they might have a chance to keep up by 2024. So you say there's a chance? lol
Underground 5/10/2016 4:52pm
5/10/2016 4:52pm
kiwifan wrote:
lol In all seriousness if a dirt bike had smaller rotors (therefore less likely to get caught in ruts, lets face it the single discs are...
lol In all seriousness if a dirt bike had smaller rotors (therefore less likely to get caught in ruts, lets face it the single discs are getting damn big these days), with smaller calipers, that have (for arguments sake) the same braking power as one disc ...would that work?
colintrax wrote:
I think you'd lose some feel, and have to double up on the brake lines. Extra unsprung weight, twice the wear parts, more upfront cost, and...
I think you'd lose some feel, and have to double up on the brake lines. Extra unsprung weight, twice the wear parts, more upfront cost, and I think reduced feel... nobody would buy that. I've never bent a rotor and hell I'm a woods rider.
Next time your changing front tyres, spread your brake pads a little and put the wheel back in sans tyre. Now spin the wheel and pinch the rim flange between your thumb and pointer fingers (in a glove) like a pair of pads and take note of the effort required to stop it. Now spin it again and pinch the disc this time and see how much harder it is to stop. Leverage and inertia my friend. A smaller disc will still lock up but the lack of power, feel and graduation prior to locking is the big loser here. Like everything, it's a compromise. Power, feel, weight and cost versus ground clearance

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tempura
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tempura 5/10/2016 5:01pm
5/10/2016 5:01pm
bob567 wrote:
This is KTM's sport. The other mcf's are just in it. Maybe next year Suzuki, Kawasaki and Honda start making a full line of two strokes...
This is KTM's sport. The other mcf's are just in it. Maybe next year Suzuki, Kawasaki and Honda start making a full line of two strokes, four strokes, factory editions, pee wees, auto's, 50's, 65's, 85's, 125's, 150's, 250's, etc. If they do that and drop the street bike frames they might have a chance to keep up by 2024. So you say there's a chance? lol
True, KTM are way ahead of the Japanese and have taken the lead. Japanese are good at copying, but slow at innovating. Once they have something that works, they don't change it much.
The difference between KTM and the Japanese is, KTM depends on making these bikes and the Japanese have their hands in many pies in many industries.
Underground 5/10/2016 5:12pm
5/10/2016 5:12pm
The Japanese are better at making profit. By a long way still
BobPA
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BobPA 5/10/2016 5:44pm
5/10/2016 5:44pm Edited Date/Time 5/10/2016 5:45pm
Underground wrote:
The Japanese are better at making profit. By a long way still
so you would rather buy a Japanese bike because they make more profit than KTM?
Crush
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Crush 5/10/2016 5:50pm
5/10/2016 5:50pm
Highsider wrote:
"JGR is experimenting with the idea of adapting WR (or FX?) electric start to its racebikes." May 2016 Dirt Rider
Motofinne wrote:
Why would they experiment with anything? Just get the system that the Factory Yamaha team uses in MXGP, problem solved.

Or are there rules against that?
aFACEdismembered wrote:
Wouldn't see how it's against the rules but I'm no expert. Reed was using the Rinaldi hydraulic clutch.Same when Honda did it. It's a complete case...
Wouldn't see how it's against the rules but I'm no expert. Reed was using the Rinaldi hydraulic clutch.Same when Honda did it. It's a complete case redesign, not just a fitting with a slave cylinder like aftermarket Magura stuff.
Pretty sure you have to have stock cases and the Rinalidi ones are incorporated into the cases aren't they?
Highsider
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Highsider 5/10/2016 6:55pm
5/10/2016 6:55pm
The 2016 YZ450FX has it and the WR450 has had it for some time. Both are heavier bikes,
but the e-start motor is about the size of a restaurant salt shaker, so that isn't where the weight is located.

The starter sits in front of the base gasket, behind the round cover.
colintrax
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colintrax 5/10/2016 7:22pm
5/10/2016 7:22pm
Underground wrote:
Next time your changing front tyres, spread your brake pads a little and put the wheel back in sans tyre. Now spin the wheel and pinch...
Next time your changing front tyres, spread your brake pads a little and put the wheel back in sans tyre. Now spin the wheel and pinch the rim flange between your thumb and pointer fingers (in a glove) like a pair of pads and take note of the effort required to stop it. Now spin it again and pinch the disc this time and see how much harder it is to stop. Leverage and inertia my friend. A smaller disc will still lock up but the lack of power, feel and graduation prior to locking is the big loser here. Like everything, it's a compromise. Power, feel, weight and cost versus ground clearance
I'm aware?
Anonymous (not verified)
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Anonymous (not verified) 5/10/2016 9:25pm
5/10/2016 9:25pm Edited Date/Time 9/1/2026 6:11pm
Is it for sure Honda will have e-start? I know their Jap race bike had it but it had also had a hydro clutch for years now.
Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 5/10/2016 10:20pm
5/10/2016 10:20pm
It's not like it's that hard..

It's been around a while.



All the enduro bikes have it. There have been a few "backwards" conversion turning enduro's into MX'er to gain the starter motor.

It's just a pride thing that the Jap MX bike makers don't want to be "forced" into it.

If KTM hadn't developed an outstanding all around package and become winners this discussion would still likely bring ridicule like having tassles on your handlebars. Now all of a sudden it's a good idea. Sometimes it's safer to follow rather than lead.


Bosco
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Bosco 5/11/2016 5:18am
5/11/2016 5:18am
Motofinne wrote:
Why would they experiment with anything? Just get the system that the Factory Yamaha team uses in MXGP, problem solved.

Or are there rules against that?
aFACEdismembered wrote:
Wouldn't see how it's against the rules but I'm no expert. Reed was using the Rinaldi hydraulic clutch.Same when Honda did it. It's a complete case...
Wouldn't see how it's against the rules but I'm no expert. Reed was using the Rinaldi hydraulic clutch.Same when Honda did it. It's a complete case redesign, not just a fitting with a slave cylinder like aftermarket Magura stuff.
Crush wrote:
Pretty sure you have to have stock cases and the Rinalidi ones are incorporated into the cases aren't they?
I can't say for sure about the current generation of Yams, but the case on my 2010 450 have threaded lugs on it to mount the e-start system. I asked my dealer about it and he said they use the same cases for the YZFs and the WRFs.
endurox
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endurox 5/11/2016 8:13am
5/11/2016 8:13am
KTM actually listens to the dealers as opposed to the japanese(excluding Yamaha) and the german manufacture.
Mit12
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Mit12 5/11/2016 11:20am
5/11/2016 11:20am
F150Motocrosser wrote:
While I'm sure each OEM has it's reasons for not yet integrating electric start to their bikes, I can't imagine not wanting to copy KTM is...
While I'm sure each OEM has it's reasons for not yet integrating electric start to their bikes, I can't imagine not wanting to copy KTM is one of those reasons. I could understand this on concept on things like the design/shape of their plastics, but not on something as critical as a push-and-go button over kick,kick,kick..
Mit12 wrote:
Electric start cost more to produce and weighs more. KTM is the lightest bike on the market and it has electric start. For Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda...
Electric start cost more to produce and weighs more. KTM is the lightest bike on the market and it has electric start. For Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda amd Kawasiki they would not only have the expense of the starter system but the cost in reducing even more weight.
Underground wrote:
have you weighed both systems? Personally while I have not weighed each, I've worked on each and with the LiPo batteries now the difference would be...
have you weighed both systems? Personally while I have not weighed each, I've worked on each and with the LiPo batteries now the difference would be in a few grams maybe in KTM favor. This isn't 2002 anymore. Cost I'd agree on but having used both systems, I'll gladly pay the difference. There is NOTHING better. Especially after a crash mid moto.
The only thing you loose when you remove a kick start and change to electric start is the Kick starter and shaft. There is no way that the kick starter and shaft weigh within a couple of grams of an electric starter, battery, wires and push button. My guess the difference would be 3 pounds more weight.
kiwifan
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kiwifan 5/11/2016 12:41pm
5/11/2016 12:41pm
Anonymous wrote:
Is it for sure Honda will have e-start? I know their Jap race bike had it but it had also had a hydro clutch for years...
Is it for sure Honda will have e-start? I know their Jap race bike had it but it had also had a hydro clutch for years now.
No, rumor has it that Honda will offer the electric start and hydro clutch as buyer options
Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 5/11/2016 2:57pm
5/11/2016 2:57pm Edited Date/Time 5/11/2016 2:58pm
Mit12 wrote:
Electric start cost more to produce and weighs more. KTM is the lightest bike on the market and it has electric start. For Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda...
Electric start cost more to produce and weighs more. KTM is the lightest bike on the market and it has electric start. For Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda amd Kawasiki they would not only have the expense of the starter system but the cost in reducing even more weight.
Underground wrote:
have you weighed both systems? Personally while I have not weighed each, I've worked on each and with the LiPo batteries now the difference would be...
have you weighed both systems? Personally while I have not weighed each, I've worked on each and with the LiPo batteries now the difference would be in a few grams maybe in KTM favor. This isn't 2002 anymore. Cost I'd agree on but having used both systems, I'll gladly pay the difference. There is NOTHING better. Especially after a crash mid moto.
Mit12 wrote:
The only thing you loose when you remove a kick start and change to electric start is the Kick starter and shaft. There is no way...
The only thing you loose when you remove a kick start and change to electric start is the Kick starter and shaft. There is no way that the kick starter and shaft weigh within a couple of grams of an electric starter, battery, wires and push button. My guess the difference would be 3 pounds more weight.
there is a little more than that:

Beta X Trainer kickstart add on kit

Pit Row

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Underground 5/11/2016 5:19pm
5/11/2016 5:19pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
[img]https://www.motosupply.com/images/Beta%20AB-21190.jpg[/img]
Now I'm guessing that all those parts add up to about 3 pounds Shocked Laughing Tongue
kiwifan
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kiwifan 5/11/2016 6:31pm
5/11/2016 6:31pm
endurox wrote:
KTM actually listens to the dealers as opposed to the japanese(excluding Yamaha) and the german manufacture.

dont tell me, you are a KTM and a YZ/YZF fan right?
BobPA
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BobPA 5/11/2016 6:35pm
5/11/2016 6:35pm Edited Date/Time 5/11/2016 7:41pm
kiwifan wrote:

dont tell me, you are a KTM and a YZ/YZF fan right?
Let me guess you are an ex-pro Honda fanatic who rides a Kawasaki and hates KTM....Cool
dcg141
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dcg141 5/11/2016 6:53pm
5/11/2016 6:53pm
BobPA wrote:
Let me guess you are an ex-pro Honda fanatic who rides a Kawasaki and hates KTM....Cool
Oh snap!!!
tempura
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tempura 5/11/2016 7:40pm
5/11/2016 7:40pm
kiwifan wrote:

dont tell me, you are a KTM and a YZ/YZF fan right?
BobPA wrote:
Let me guess you are an ex-pro Honda fanatic who rides a Kawasaki and hates KTM....Cool
lol... Hey, he's going back to Honda..his dealer wants him back and has offered him a free bike.
kiwifan
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kiwifan 5/11/2016 7:48pm
5/11/2016 7:48pm
kiwifan wrote:

dont tell me, you are a KTM and a YZ/YZF fan right?
BobPA wrote:
Let me guess you are an ex-pro Honda fanatic who rides a Kawasaki and hates KTM....Cool
touche
kiwifan
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kiwifan 5/11/2016 7:49pm
5/11/2016 7:49pm
kiwifan wrote:

dont tell me, you are a KTM and a YZ/YZF fan right?
BobPA wrote:
Let me guess you are an ex-pro Honda fanatic who rides a Kawasaki and hates KTM....Cool
tempura wrote:
lol... Hey, he's going back to Honda..his dealer wants him back and has offered him a free bike.
lol a bit of jealousy I detect there, sucks to be you then
tempura
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tempura 5/11/2016 8:20pm
5/11/2016 8:20pm
kiwifan wrote:
lol a bit of jealousy I detect there, sucks to be you then
You need to recalibrate your methods of detection
kiwifan
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kiwifan 5/11/2016 10:29pm
5/11/2016 10:29pm
kiwifan wrote:
lol a bit of jealousy I detect there, sucks to be you then
tempura wrote:
You need to recalibrate your methods of detection
sure as hell sounded like it Tongue
tempura
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tempura 5/12/2016 3:14am
5/12/2016 3:14am
kiwifan wrote:
sure as hell sounded like it Tongue
Don't confuse jealousy with banter, or just simply having a chuckle at you.. Laughing
kiwifan
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kiwifan 5/12/2016 12:47pm
5/12/2016 12:47pm
kiwifan wrote:
sure as hell sounded like it Tongue
tempura wrote:
Don't confuse jealousy with banter, or just simply having a chuckle at you.. Laughing
lol Cool
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