Simple suggestion for big bike killing little kids problem

Edited Date/Time 1/26/2012 12:11pm
Hearing this stuff tears me up. And it's not getting better. I've listened to all the 'freedom of choice' advocates who, basically, don't think anything should change and push the burden of responsibility onto the kid and his/her parents to make the proper choices about whether to ride or not.

Guess what? That ain't working. Kids young enough to ride 65s aren't mature enough to curb their enthusiasm with the simple logic that they might get hurt. And parents often put their trust in the notion that they are paying fees to ride at organized events run by track management people that have experience structuring things to prevent obvious safety issues. Sometimes the parents aren't even present, as kids frequently go riding with friends. Well, guess what? Many tracks aren't as proactive as some might expect.

I think track owners have an implicit responsibility they assume as soon as they open their gate and start charging money to ride. They CAN and SHOULD apply a little common sense to how they organize practice sessions. Too often we hear how they can't afford to hire flaggers and med techs, that there often aren't enough riders to split practices, etc. I get that, I really do. But just throwing open the gate and filling the coffee can with cash is not enough, either. Signs advising there are no flaggers or paramedics and to 'ride at your own risk' is not quite enough. You can do more and it won't cost you anything but a little time, some paint, word of mouth and some monitoring and encouragement in the beginning to get everyone to know the program. If it catches on in the riding community, it will help. It's not a guarantee, but I think it will improve the risk.

I propose the [color=#FF0000:2or1en95][size=150:2or1en95]LAST 20 RULE[/size:2or1en95][/color:2or1en95]. Create and post this sign at every track entrance. If you really want to improve it, add one of those cheap battery-powered clocks somewhere on the sign at the finish line. Go around and remind people in the pits about it. Put it on your flyers. Make sure that everyone in the riding community has heard about LAST 20. It'll cost you very little and reward you with a little peace of mind.

This one, simple, cheap, step could save a couple of little kids. It leaves the ultimate responsibility in the hands of the riders, but suggests a simple common sense approach. 40 minutes of every hour for the grown ups. 20 minutes for the kiddos. Tweak it, if you want. It's just an idea. Make it the FIRST 20 RULE or the FIRST 15 RULE or KIDS RULE THE FIRST 20. But I think this could really improve the odds if it catches on.

I'm not much of an artist:

[img:2or1en95]http://www.lanimation.net/images/last20.jpg[/img:2or1en95]

Ok. Fire away.
|
ddog558
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3/23/2008 10:41am
I think its a great idea, personally.

Its just a shame that kids have to keep dying in such a senseless way before people actually see there's a problem. It should be a no-brainer that 50's-80's dont practice with big bikes, but thats just me though.
3/23/2008 10:46am
i like it ! Washougal has classes that you sign up in ! Minis are never on the track with big bikes!
KAWboy14
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3/23/2008 10:48am
its easier than that

1) seperate practice times....nobody on a local level can ride all day long

2) seperate tracks


ALL businesses have rules to follow (handicap bathrooms, osha regs and so on) that add to the cost of their biz but serve as a protection for all involved whether its reduced lawsuits or the safety of all related to that biz.....mototrack owners should operate a safe biz or get out of biz!
3/23/2008 10:56am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:26pm
Excellent idea, whipmeister! Big bikes for the first 40, little bikes for the last 20.

ATV's go elsewhere. <img class= " title="Smile">

The Shop

3/23/2008 11:01am
great idea Jess. I also think that mandatory helmet laws should prevail in every state just as seatbelt laws. but the same folks that say give me my rights also don't want to be told what to do on race or practice day
3/23/2008 11:21am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:26pm
[quote="jtomasik":i2geyte3]Excellent idea, whipmeister! Big bikes for the first 40, little bikes for the last 20.

ATV's go elsewhere. <img class= " title="Smile">[/quote:i2geyte3]

Thats how it is at a track I ride at in Norcal 40 min big bikes 20 min small bikes, There has been days that there is 5 mini bikes out there total for the day and they still split it, Its nice go out and do 40 minutes and come in and rest...
3/23/2008 11:26am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:26pm
I think I do like the 'This track follows "KIDS RULE THE FIRST 20"' version best. Puts 'em first.

The best attribute of this is it really only requires word of mouth to implement. Once everyone gets it into their head, they'll start paying attention to the clock. You can't keep idiots from being idiots, but at least the thinking people will go to the pits for a Gatorade and chain lube. And, maybe, tell the idiot to get off the track, too.

If you think it's a good idea, pass it on. Especially to your local track czars.
3/23/2008 11:55am
I went to NEMX (indoor mx facility) in Andover, Oh last Friday afternoon. When you're there on practice days, they separate the riders by classes and displacements. A-B riders, C riders, 65-85cc, and 50cc, and they also have time for pit bikes. They do not permit the minis on the track at the same time as big bikes. They have 3 blind landing jumps with flaggers at every one, and they have yellow lights at eye level. If there's a yellow at a jump, you roll it. If the flashing yellow lights are on there is no jumping anywhere on track.

Now that was my first time on an MX track in 20 years, but I like the way they split things up. there was only one kid out there on a 50, and he had the track all to himself. Didn't hear anyone grumbling either.
3/23/2008 12:13pm
Whipmeister, good points. It'll get everyone thinking of taking care of the little guys. I'm sure somebody here is tighter with Dave at Thunder Valley than I am....maybe they can pass this idea along to him.
3/23/2008 12:42pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:26pm
something like that can work for sure. 60's-100cc in a seperate time frame then quads on the clock at a different time. Complete seperate track for 50CC and those type of beginners up to 80cc if the track doesn't have blind jumps or high speed.

[quote:3m506fky]helmet laws should prevail in every state just as seatbelt laws.[/quote:3m506fky] Bobby, i am sorry but I absolutely detest "good idea" laws. Seatbelts, Helmets, whats next? i wish there was people fighting for my rights when it makes you a criminal if you don't buckle up, screw that........ It's not far of a stretch to apply these "good idea" laws to off road, see what happens when all riders must be 16 to race/ride. By that time it will be to late.

on topic, a time frame deal would be great and even better to be "organized" that all tracks would do something of the same type of thing. Better make sure that "time" would be available to know when it's ok to ride on the track.
DL
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3/23/2008 1:02pm
This is a good idea for sure but most tracks will not comply. Look at Glen Helen....... quads, 50, 65, 85, Supermini, 125, 250, 450, beginners through pros are on the track at the same time. It's crazy and hard to believe that rational thought does not prevail. Bottom line is that government will step in and we really won't like what they do. IMO
flarider
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3/23/2008 1:18pm
I like the idea as well, but you'll get the whiners who will complain about only riding 20 minutes an hour
flarider
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3/23/2008 1:20pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:26pm
[quote="DL":3i0jraz1] Bottom line is that government will step in and we really won't like what they do. IMO[/quote:3i0jraz1]
This is correct and I have been saying this for years.
The CPSC is going to be on us soon if this keeps up and we do not self regulate
DL
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3/23/2008 1:28pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:26pm
[quote="flarider":2y2uc9be]I like the idea as well, but you'll get the whiners who will complain about only riding 20 minutes an hour[/quote:2y2uc9be]So true.... friends of mone that frequent REM and esteemed magazine editors have said that to me..... they don't want to inconvenienced.
Farva
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3/23/2008 1:40pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:26pm
[quote="whipmeister":1ixmwfvy]Hearing this stuff tears me up. And it's not getting better. I've listened to all the 'freedom of choice' advocates who, basically, don't think anything should change and push the burden of responsibility onto the kid and his/her parents to make the proper choices about whether to ride or not.

Guess what? That ain't working. Kids young enough to ride 65s aren't mature enough to curb their enthusiasm with the simple logic that they might get hurt. And parents often put their trust in the notion that they are paying fees to ride at organized events run by track management people that have experience structuring things to prevent obvious safety issues. Sometimes the parents aren't even present, as kids frequently go riding with friends. Well, guess what? Many tracks aren't as proactive as some might expect.

I think track owners have an implicit responsibility they assume as soon as they open their gate and start charging money to ride. They CAN and SHOULD apply a little common sense to how they organize practice sessions. Too often we hear how they can't afford to hire flaggers and med techs, that there often aren't enough riders to split practices, etc. I get that, I really do. But just throwing open the gate and filling the coffee can with cash is not enough, either. Signs advising there are no flaggers or paramedics and to 'ride at your own risk' is not quite enough. You can do more and it won't cost you anything but a little time, some paint, word of mouth and some monitoring and encouragement in the beginning to get everyone to know the program. If it catches on in the riding community, it will help. It's not a guarantee, but I think it will improve the risk.

I propose the [color=#FF0000:1ixmwfvy][size=150:1ixmwfvy]LAST 20 RULE[/size:1ixmwfvy][/color:1ixmwfvy]. Create and post this sign at every track entrance. If you really want to improve it, add one of those cheap battery-powered clocks somewhere on the sign at the finish line. Go around and remind people in the pits about it. Put it on your flyers. Make sure that everyone in the riding community has heard about LAST 20. It'll cost you very little and reward you with a little peace of mind.

This one, simple, cheap, step could save a couple of little kids. It leaves the ultimate responsibility in the hands of the riders, but suggests a simple common sense approach. 40 minutes of every hour for the grown ups. 20 minutes for the kiddos. Tweak it, if you want. It's just an idea. Make it the FIRST 20 RULE or the FIRST 15 RULE or KIDS RULE THE FIRST 20. But I think this could really improve the odds if it catches on.

I'm not much of an artist:

[img:1ixmwfvy]http://www.lanimation.net/images/last20.jpg[/img:1ixmwfvy]

Ok. Fire away.[/quote:1ixmwfvy]


You are right the kid is not mature enough to decide if it is safe the PARENTS need too.
3/23/2008 6:30pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:26pm
[quote="Farva":1czbc367]
You are right the kid is not mature enough to decide if it is safe the PARENTS need too.[/quote:1czbc367]

Yeah. But it takes a village. The track owners need to man up, too, and take a simple step that yields less risk.
Farva
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3/23/2008 9:08pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:26pm
[quote="whipmeister":1bnx9157][quote="Farva":1bnx9157]
You are right the kid is not mature enough to decide if it is safe the PARENTS need too.[/quote:1bnx9157]

Yeah. But it takes a village. The track owners need to man up, too, and take a simple step that yields less risk.[/quote:1bnx9157]


It is easier to blame every one but the rider the sad part is it is the parents fault for letting the little ones out on the track with the big bikes. You had an understanding of how things worked and that they were dangerous and could result in something bad happeing to your kid but still let your kid out on the track and he got hurt why would it be the tracks fault? If parents decided it was unsafe and were not going to take their kid to an unsafe track and let them ride the track owners would have to split up practice. We have a major parenting problem in America today and the reason for it is all these parents who blame everyone else for their kids mishaps.
3/23/2008 9:26pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:26pm
[quote="Farva":1ygtbfxp]
It is easier to blame every one but the rider the sad part is it is the parents fault for letting the little ones out on the track with the big bikes. You had an understanding of how things worked and that they were dangerous and could result in something bad happeing to your kid but still let your kid out on the track and he got hurt why would it be the tracks fault? If parents decided it was unsafe and were not going to take their kid to an unsafe track and let them ride the track owners would have to split up practice. We have a major parenting problem in America today and the reason for it is all these parents who blame everyone else for their kids mishaps.[/quote:1ygtbfxp]

Let me spell this out for you because you obviously don't fully grasp english. Asking a track to put up a sign to help people make better decisions on their own does not equal blaming anybody for anything. Sheesh.
Trip
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3/23/2008 9:37pm
I think Starwest out here has the best way to run things. Friday night is mini night, nothing over 85cc on Friday nights, the rest of the week you take your chances. Perris splits up days too. I think days work better than the 20 minute thought. Unless you can get ALL the tracks is the area to go along with the 20 minute rule, it's not going to work. Sounds better on paper than it really is. I'm in construction and deal with people who sit around looking at shit on paper all day long. They can't figure out why it doesn't work in the field, when it's so plain on paper. This may work where there isn't alot of options, but I don't see it working real well where there is more than one option for riding.
Adam43
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3/23/2008 10:00pm
Thats a great idea, and leaving things as they are with just a free for all is fucking nonsense. Some well-run tracks out there already use a similar system, and people are fine with it.
Scotty
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3/23/2008 10:33pm
Alot of tracks out here in socal already have similar rules.. Barona oaks breaks down each hour into three, 20 mins sessions for each group. Mini bikes, Beg and novice bigbikes, and int/exp big bikes..It seems to work really well. Only complaint is you have to wait 40 mins in between each ride.
3/23/2008 11:42pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:26pm
[quote="Trip":2pqieedd]I think Starwest out here has the best way to run things. Friday night is mini night, nothing over 85cc on Friday nights, the rest of the week you take your chances. Perris splits up days too. I think days work better than the 20 minute thought. Unless you can get ALL the tracks is the area to go along with the 20 minute rule, it's not going to work. Sounds better on paper than it really is. I'm in construction and deal with people who sit around looking at shit on paper all day long. They can't figure out why it doesn't work in the field, when it's so plain on paper. This may work where there isn't alot of options, but I don't see it working real well where there is more than one option for riding.[/quote:2pqieedd]

You make some good points. But I don't think 'unless the tracks is the area to go along with the 20 minute rule, it's not going to work.' is accurate. If one track adopts it that now has wide-open practice, it's an improvement. If two do it, that's twice as good. And so on. And remember, it's just a sign, a flag and/or some text on a flyer. If a track is already doing something like this and more, more power to 'em; this isn't about them. But if you can get the moto-public thinking "KIDS RULE THE FIRST 20" or whatever, all the better. They'll just come to expect it wherever they go and it will become universally self-enforcing.

IOW, it's supposed to be simple and easy and unburdensome to anyone. And it's not a guarantee, just a guideline. This is still a risky sport. My hope is just to take the edge off a little bit to benefit the people that matter the most.
teggers
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3/24/2008 12:24am
Excellent Post.
3/24/2008 6:20am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:26pm
Good idea, for the people that say not enough ride time, besides the few that actually train more than 1 day a week, how many riders do you see actual "ride" for more than 5-10 minutes straight at a time? This will give them a good excuse to go back to the truck and rest. If this rule gets known, you know you have to be at the track and ready to go at the beginning of the hour to get your time in, if someone gets 3 40 minute (or even 20 minute) sessions in one day they will be ready to go home after that (if they are riding the entire 20 minutes of each session).
NB304
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3/24/2008 9:06am
i have never been to a track that didn't have separate practice groups. the only time i see an 85 rider with the big bikes is when they get special permission to practice with the a/b class because they are as fast as those guys.
Trip
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3/24/2008 5:16pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:27pm
[quote="whipmeister":1inj6bye][quote="Trip":1inj6bye]I think Starwest out here has the best way to run things. Friday night is mini night, nothing over 85cc on Friday nights, the rest of the week you take your chances. Perris splits up days too. I think days work better than the 20 minute thought. Unless you can get ALL the tracks is the area to go along with the 20 minute rule, it's not going to work. Sounds better on paper than it really is. I'm in construction and deal with people who sit around looking at shit on paper all day long. They can't figure out why it doesn't work in the field, when it's so plain on paper. This may work where there isn't alot of options, but I don't see it working real well where there is more than one option for riding.[/quote:1inj6bye]

You make some good points. [b:1inj6bye]But I don't think 'unless the tracks is the area to go along with the 20 minute rule, it's not going to work.' is accurate.[/b:1inj6bye] If one track adopts it that now has wide-open practice, it's an improvement. If two do it, that's twice as good. And so on. And remember, it's just a sign, a flag and/or some text on a flyer. If a track is already doing something like this and more, more power to 'em; this isn't about them. But if you can get the moto-public thinking "KIDS RULE THE FIRST 20" or whatever, all the better. They'll just come to expect it wherever they go and it will become universally self-enforcing.

IOW, it's supposed to be simple and easy and unburdensome to anyone. And it's not a guarantee, just a guideline. This is still a risky sport. My hope is just to take the edge off a little bit to benefit the people that matter the most.[/quote:1inj6bye]

I know of one track that does it or used to do it, I haven't been back in a while. That track is on the verge of shutting down, according to the rumors floating around. If saftey was really an important issue to the tracks, they would do something. Problem is, everyone complains about the situation, but those same people still show up weekly for practice. I know I wont show up to a track like Glen Helen if I only get 20 minutes of practice an hour. Places that have multiple tracks, it's a great idea, but with just one track to split all the time on?? It will not work out here. Weeekends when its crowded, maybe, but on a Tuesday at 11 in the morning, it's never going to fly.
3/24/2008 5:26pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:27pm
[quote="NB304":2esbtdgc]i have never been to a track that didn't have separate practice groups. the only time i see an 85 rider with the big bikes is when they get special permission to practice with the a/b class because they are as fast as those guys.[/quote:2esbtdgc]

Ditto!! Even my track goes as far as separate the different skill levels in the big bikes!! This is not based on where you think you should be, but from observation by the track manager/co-ordinator
3/24/2008 7:21pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:27pm
[quote="Blackopsrider":12m5gd2w]Ditto!! Even my track goes as far as separate the different skill levels in the big bikes!! This is not based on where you think you should be, but from observation by the track manager/co-ordinator[/quote:12m5gd2w]

But not everybody does. That's the point.
Farva
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3/30/2008 12:43pm
I will bump this topic so people do not forget. That is the problem with things like this after a bit people forget about it we need to not let that happen. Being real close to the family who just lost their son I will try my best to keep this thread on the front page I would even like to see it stickied on the top.
3/30/2008 5:54pm
i think ill start running it in my sig to remind folks about the rule...i know its still the track owners who make the decision but hopefully it will catch on because it will eventually bite a track owner in the a$$ if he doesnt have something in place to make sure the smaller riders are safe...

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