2- Stroke technology

ns503
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2/18/2008 9:04am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="Racer92":3smx0qej][quote="ns503":3smx0qej][quote="Todder":3smx0qej]I drove the new BRP 600DI Etec sled two weeks ago. No smoke or smell, drops right to a silky smooth 1000rpm idle when you get off the gas (actually sounds like a small 4 stroke or outboard when idling), but pulls like a typical 2 stroke. Very nice. Better gas mileage and waaaay lighter than the 4 strokes.[/quote:3smx0qej][/quote:3smx0qej]
Dont confuse this thread with your first-hand-account facts. The Powers-At-Be have decided you dont need your silly 2-stroke. Turn away from this naive notion that your smoker can be adapted to become better and even surpass the hallowed Thumper. They have decided that the incredibly antiquated Otto Cycle machine is better. Dont you see? We dont need simpler, we need complicated. We need an engine chock full of spinning parts that wear and fail. We need rotating mass all over the engine, cams, buckets, shims, gears, springs & locks, with chains flailing around and valves bouncing off the seat, stems snapping and exhaust so loud you want to jam an ice pick into your ears. Catch up already, Dammit.


"Forget about your silly whim, it doesnt fit the plan" [i:3smx0qej]- Rush 2112[/i:3smx0qej][/quote:3smx0qej]

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me.

It's quieter too.
2/18/2008 9:36am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="yanks_178":4zrite52]Emissions is the real reason why we have 4 strokes now!! A 2 stroke can't meet the strict requirements that we will have in the not so distant future.[/quote:4zrite52]
Did you just skip reading the article in the OP? It says that the new engine makes less emissions than four strokes.
ninety3
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2/18/2008 6:08pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
Great, so when are we going to see new cars with efficient 2-strokes <img class= " title="Laughing">
2/18/2008 6:31pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote:mknjf6kc]Great, so when are we going to see new cars with efficient 2-strokes [/quote:mknjf6kc]

actually you have a point, but it's 20 some years to late. ever vehicle today has a computer and special tools to work on todays vehicles which most "back yard mechanics" can't work on anymore. The car industry most certainly had this in mind when they they developed the newer cooler vehicles of today which I might add dont' get much better fuel mileage then 20 some years ago.

it's plain good business to make a product that needs a specialized tools, persons and processes to maintain and work on. The reason todays car industry in the US is having trouble, they made the new fuel injected cast iron motors to well. hence they run 200-300 thousand miles and people dont' need to replace them to often. oh wieght what have they done in the last 5=7 years, made the motors out of aluminum, i am sure they did this because it's cheaper then cast iron. But rather because it won't last the stresses like a cast motor will. (my comparisons mainly pertain to full size pick up trucks).

anyway this four stroke stuff in the sport of mx is no different. they give us a different product that is to revolutionize the industry, sure it does, they change the rules, they make the product, they cost more, then they need different or more care after the sale. sounds like a very smart industry move.

The Shop

ninety3
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2/18/2008 6:40pm
Or maybe off-road buyers as a whole prefer 4-strokes?
MX7MX
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2/18/2008 9:57pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="KTM93":1ysyvle7]Or maybe off-road buyers as a whole prefer 4-strokes?[/quote:1ysyvle7]

Amen brother! :D
andymoto
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2/18/2008 10:57pm
Be lucky we have bikes and places still to ride. Just thank our lucky stars for that. At this point, two stroke or four stroke is mute. Just ride.
ninety3
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2/18/2008 11:23pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="andymoto":nhx06uhz]Be lucky we have bikes and places still to ride. Just thank our lucky stars for that. At this point, two stroke or four stroke is mute. Just ride.[/quote:nhx06uhz]
+1
2/19/2008 8:41am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="andymoto":2tj5zze3]Be lucky we have bikes and places still to ride. Just thank our lucky stars for that. At this point, two stroke or four stroke is mute. Just ride.[/quote:2tj5zze3]

I do wish four strokes were mute.
2/19/2008 11:46am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote:2g6w8ezw]Or maybe off-road buyers as a whole prefer 4-strokes?[/quote:2g6w8ezw]

yep and or maybe riders are like cattle and make nice little trails back to the feed lot? lot of ways to look at it. we one thing for sure, the CRF150R is such a big hit, that without class handi-capping it's relegated to mind numbing amout of tv commercials which is a big hit for the people selling TV ads. It is such a hit that all the other oem's are running and trying to copy/build as many as they can........ jeeez.

but believe what ya will, BNG worked for so many years that the addition of a couple of "strokes" has to be the best thing since sliced bread.

<img class= " title="Smile">

nothing like another 2 v 4 thread. hell this one ddint' even get hijacked! lol
2/19/2008 4:27pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="wardy":1v0rxftv]

oh wieght what have they done in the last 5=7 years, made the motors out of aluminum, i am sure they did this because it's cheaper then cast iron. But rather because it won't last the stresses like a cast motor will. (my comparisons mainly pertain to full size pick up trucks).

anyway this four stroke stuff in the sport of mx is no different. they give us a different product that is to revolutionize the industry, sure it does, they change the rules, they make the product, they cost more, then they need different or more care after the sale. sounds like a very smart industry move.[/quote:1v0rxftv]

Actually, aluminum is considerably more expensive to refine than iron. The auto manufacturers went to aluminum because it weighs less. (less weight = better gas mileage with minimal expenditures) Aluminum also has far superior heat transfer than cast iron, meaning that you can get heat out of the engine and into the coolant faster with aluminum. So you can get more power per liter/cu. inch within the limits of a stock vehicle.
raddad
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2/19/2008 5:15pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="harescrambled":1zwa9ata][quote="wardy":1zwa9ata]

oh wieght what have they done in the last 5=7 years, made the motors out of aluminum, i am sure they did this because it's cheaper then cast iron. But rather because it won't last the stresses like a cast motor will. (my comparisons mainly pertain to full size pick up trucks).

anyway this four stroke stuff in the sport of mx is no different. they give us a different product that is to revolutionize the industry, sure it does, they change the rules, they make the product, they cost more, then they need different or more care after the sale. sounds like a very smart industry move.[/quote:1zwa9ata]

Actually, aluminum is considerably more expensive to refine than iron. The auto manufacturers went to aluminum because it weighs less. (less weight = better gas mileage with minimal expenditures) Aluminum also has far superior heat transfer than cast iron, meaning that you can get heat out of the engine and into the coolant faster with aluminum. So you can get more power per liter/cu. inch within the limits of a stock vehicle.[/quote:1zwa9ata]

The voice or of reason! I am so sick of these "conspiricy theories" that it makes me sick. Don't you think just for a minute that the reason things change is for good not evil and that most often the people that buy these new ideas do so because they actually like them? As far as 4 stk's go they always have been easier and more fun to ride on dirt and pavement so it blows me away when some people actually think they are crap! We still have choices and we all can ride a 2 stk if we want and if the new 2 stk technology is better and makes a bike/snowmobile etc easier to ride and wins races we soon will switch to them. There is no conspiricy..
2/19/2008 6:03pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
Nice back and forth debate, is this Motodrive? Cool. Maybe someone reading this(with money to blow) will go out and buy a new 225 Evinrude and fabricate it into a compact car and give us a report. :D:D
2/19/2008 6:17pm
braaaap.
2/19/2008 6:37pm
The blue inn in montecello rocks.
MX7MX
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2/19/2008 7:07pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="raddad":3505zqq2][quote="harescrambled":3505zqq2][quote="wardy":3505zqq2]

oh wieght what have they done in the last 5=7 years, made the motors out of aluminum, i am sure they did this because it's cheaper then cast iron. But rather because it won't last the stresses like a cast motor will. (my comparisons mainly pertain to full size pick up trucks).

anyway this four stroke stuff in the sport of mx is no different. they give us a different product that is to revolutionize the industry, sure it does, they change the rules, they make the product, they cost more, then they need different or more care after the sale. sounds like a very smart industry move.[/quote:3505zqq2]

Actually, aluminum is considerably more expensive to refine than iron. The auto manufacturers went to aluminum because it weighs less. (less weight = better gas mileage with minimal expenditures) Aluminum also has far superior heat transfer than cast iron, meaning that you can get heat out of the engine and into the coolant faster with aluminum. So you can get more power per liter/cu. inch within the limits of a stock vehicle.[/quote:3505zqq2]

The voice or of reason! I am so sick of these "conspiricy theories" that it makes me sick. Don't you think just for a minute that the reason things change is for good not evil and that most often the people that buy these new ideas do so because they actually like them? As far as 4 stk's go they always have been easier and more fun to ride on dirt and pavement so it blows me away when some people actually think they are crap! We still have choices and we all can ride a 2 stk if we want and if the new 2 stk technology is better and makes a bike/snowmobile etc easier to ride and wins races we soon will switch to them. There is no conspiricy..[/quote:3505zqq2]

What it boils down to is the simple fact that so many of the old timers are so "USED" to having 2 strokes for so long when 4 strokes werent competitive.....that they are afraid of change. Some are like that.
Racer92
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2/19/2008 7:15pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="MX7MX":yoiz7jw0]they are afraid of change. Some are like that.[/quote:yoiz7jw0]
Im not afraid of change when its for the better. More moving/wearing/failing/heavier parts does not equate to better IMHO.
RetVet
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AZ US
2/19/2008 7:22pm
Someone needs to start a 2 stroke national series.
2/19/2008 7:38pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote:2tz0usm6]There is no conspiricy..
[/quote:2tz0usm6]

where in anything that I have ever wrote said anything about conspiricy? in order for something to conspired it has to be a friggin secret. this isn't what happened here, it was a concious plan put in place to sell more machines, and to make it a better more viable product for the consumer, which they got some of it right. maybe today there will be more of a choice to race heads up, and in a few months we will see how good or bad it works.

I agree on the aluminum and it's benifits, but my comparison was that normally it won't stand up as long in a motor like cast, and for that matter it may weigh less, but just exactly how much better gas mileage does a vehicle get compared to 10 years ago? (full size pickup truck) would be my example.

nothing wrong with change or the 4 stroke motorcycles, in fact the way things set right now today it's pretty cool to have a choice, hell i am racing a 4t in HS racing until we line up a 300. Of course it's the wife's crf250x with a button!

a marketing plan can be called a conspiracy i guess, but i get a kick out of what i call "magizine" readers (you know the type, they would know the latest, coolest, neatest thing) because it was in an ad or "test". today it's the internet, but 20 years ago if it was printed in MXA it had to gospel.
so anyway better get back on the path don't want to get outa line here, in HS racing it's desired.

<img class= " title="Laughing">
2/19/2008 7:57pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
I think if we combine some of the answers, we can predict the future based on the past.
It seems to me that the 2-stroke in it's past form had been done and re-done a few times and was quite possibly at it's power limits, so what a better way to move forward than to switch gears(no pun intended). Here comes the 4-stroke and to make it more attractive, they give it a cc advantage over the 2-t. Of course, everyone jumps on board because it is easier to ride and now your "compliant" with the emmissions regulations. Now we are at today.
Now some riders are realizing that it is REALLY F'IN expensive to fix a blown up 4-t, so they switch back just to keep riding. The manufacturers don't care at this point. When will they care? I think they will switch back to a 2-t when the sound issues become more of an issue, AND if it is true that they new 2-t motor is "cleaner" than a 4-t, that is when we will return to the 2-t. Give it 10 years or so.
Look at how often car motors and body styles change, I think the motorcycle industry has dragged a bit in making larger changes like this.

There is my prediction.
2/19/2008 8:02pm
I think the cold is getting to you.
ninety3
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2/19/2008 8:13pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="danman":hcugsobh]I think if we combine some of the answers, we can predict the future based on the past.
It seems to me that the 2-stroke in it's past form had been done and re-done a few times and was quite possibly at it's power limits, so what a better way to move forward than to switch gears(no pun intended). Here comes the 4-stroke and to make it more attractive, they give it a cc advantage over the 2-t. Of course, everyone jumps on board because it is easier to ride and now your "compliant" with the emmissions regulations. Now we are at today.
Now some riders are realizing that it is REALLY F'IN expensive to fix a blown up 4-t, so they switch back just to keep riding. The manufacturers don't care at this point. When will they care? I think they will switch back to a 2-t when the sound issues become more of an issue, AND if it is true that they new 2-t motor is "cleaner" than a 4-t, that is when we will return to the 2-t. Give it 10 years or so.
Look at how often car motors and body styles change, I think the motorcycle industry has dragged a bit in making larger changes like this.

There is my prediction.[/quote:hcugsobh]
In 10 years some form of bio-electric moto derivative would be more likely than the return of the 2-stroke.
Buy these smokers up while you can people, much like the dinosaurs, they are nearing extinction.

And for many of us old geezers they will be sorely missed.
TerryK
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CA
2/19/2008 8:14pm
I believe that no matter how clean 2 strokes could become, there is no way you can convince the tree huggers and anti pollution lobbyists that a 2 stroke can be cleaner than a 4 stroke, even with test results available to them. It's just been understood for the last 100 years that 2 strokes are noisy, dirty, smokey polluters of the earth.

Pretty difficult to break that stigma.
2/19/2008 8:20pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote:pjlnsvv7]I think if we combine some of the answers, we can predict the future based on the past.
It seems to me that the 2-stroke in it's past form had been done and re-done a few times and was quite possibly at it's power limits, so what a better way to move forward than to switch gears(no pun intended). Here comes the 4-stroke and to make it more attractive, they give it a cc advantage over the 2-t. Of course, everyone jumps on board because it is easier to ride and now your "compliant" with the emmissions regulations. Now we are at today.
Now some riders are realizing that it is REALLY F'IN expensive to fix a blown up 4-t, so they switch back just to keep riding. The manufacturers don't care at this point. When will they care? I think they will switch back to a 2-t when the sound issues become more of an issue, AND if it is true that they new 2-t motor is "cleaner" than a 4-t, that is when we will return to the 2-t. Give it 10 years or so.
Look at how often car motors and body styles change, I think the motorcycle industry has dragged a bit in making larger changes like this.

There is my prediction.[/quote:pjlnsvv7]

it is likely this prediction is not to far off. lets hope in 10-15 years this sport is a viable as it is today. how many SX riders were there at the race last week?/????
andymoto
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2/20/2008 8:49am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="wardy":9eayrzj0][quote:9eayrzj0]I think if we combine some of the answers, we can predict the future based on the past.
It seems to me that the 2-stroke in it's past form had been done and re-done a few times and was quite possibly at it's power limits, so what a better way to move forward than to switch gears(no pun intended). Here comes the 4-stroke and to make it more attractive, they give it a cc advantage over the 2-t. Of course, everyone jumps on board because it is easier to ride and now your "compliant" with the emmissions regulations. Now we are at today.
Now some riders are realizing that it is REALLY F'IN expensive to fix a blown up 4-t, so they switch back just to keep riding. The manufacturers don't care at this point. When will they care? I think they will switch back to a 2-t when the sound issues become more of an issue, AND if it is true that they new 2-t motor is "cleaner" than a 4-t, that is when we will return to the 2-t. Give it 10 years or so.
Look at how often car motors and body styles change, I think the motorcycle industry has dragged a bit in making larger changes like this.

There is my prediction.[/quote:9eayrzj0]

it is likely this prediction is not to far off. [b:9eayrzj0] lets hope in 10-15 years this sport is a viable as it is today[/b:9eayrzj0]. how many SX riders were there at the race last week?/????[/quote:9eayrzj0]

What I highlighted on your statement Wardy is the biggest challenge to dirt biking in upcoming years.
2/20/2008 10:46am
i truely believe we have some huge hurdles, sound, safety, emmissions, and loss of ground to ride are going to be a huge problem. closed course machines will lose thier exemption sooner then later, kids getting hurt is where this sport will get the most backlash, and the rest will add to the problems.
10-15 years is just a guess but these things will bite us in the ass sooner then later and i hope they get handled the best way possible before it's a make or break issue.
Farva
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US
2/20/2008 11:22am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:13pm
[quote="wardy":33o36rrk][quote:33o36rrk]I think if we combine some of the answers, we can predict the future based on the past.
It seems to me that the 2-stroke in it's past form had been done and re-done a few times and was quite possibly at it's power limits, so what a better way to move forward than to switch gears(no pun intended). Here comes the 4-stroke and to make it more attractive, they give it a cc advantage over the 2-t. Of course, everyone jumps on board because it is easier to ride and now your "compliant" with the emmissions regulations. Now we are at today.
Now some riders are realizing that it is REALLY F'IN expensive to fix a blown up 4-t, so they switch back just to keep riding. The manufacturers don't care at this point. When will they care? I think they will switch back to a 2-t when the sound issues become more of an issue, AND if it is true that they new 2-t motor is "cleaner" than a 4-t, that is when we will return to the 2-t. Give it 10 years or so.
Look at how often car motors and body styles change, I think the motorcycle industry has dragged a bit in making larger changes like this.

There is my prediction.[/quote:33o36rrk]

it is likely this prediction is not to far off. lets hope in 10-15 years this sport is a viable as it is today. how many SX riders were there at the race last week?/????[/quote:33o36rrk]

Well what do you mean by SX riders do you mean the 450 racers or the 250f and 450 racers you see a problem with the name change yet? As far as how many were at the SX goes the way the A.M.A makes them qualify and then are not eligable to race the 450 class right away witch would save them tons of money hurts the turn out and you wont see an increase inless that rule is changed.
2/20/2008 11:43am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:13pm
nothing wrong with "qualifing" to able to race those classes, but ama pro came up with the rules for that, nothing to with amatuer. they made them so concerned that a "prodigy" can get to the pros easy, but make the unknowns jump alot hurdles to make it. you realize there is a clause in there that states AMa can just sign off and rider can transfer to any of those classes.
2/20/2008 12:47pm
im faster on my 250f than a 125 and a 250 2 smoke

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