Valkenswaard Sunday Bench racing thread

early
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3/28/2016 1:26pm
Motofinne wrote:
That second MXGP moto! WOW! Absolutely incredible ride by the champ. I'll also have to take a dig at RacerX and their MXGP coverage this year...
That second MXGP moto! WOW! Absolutely incredible ride by the champ.

I'll also have to take a dig at RacerX and their MXGP coverage this year, 7 tweets about the Valkenswaard this weekend and SX is on a break and the GP was the only race this weekend. It's a bit sad, especially when there are 2 riders from USA in the GPs.
Most people that follow RacerX on twitter were at work today not refreshing their twitter feed
Motofinne
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3/28/2016 1:35pm
Motofinne wrote:
That second MXGP moto! WOW! Absolutely incredible ride by the champ. I'll also have to take a dig at RacerX and their MXGP coverage this year...
That second MXGP moto! WOW! Absolutely incredible ride by the champ.

I'll also have to take a dig at RacerX and their MXGP coverage this year, 7 tweets about the Valkenswaard this weekend and SX is on a break and the GP was the only race this weekend. It's a bit sad, especially when there are 2 riders from USA in the GPs.
early wrote:
Most people that follow RacerX on twitter were at work today not refreshing their twitter feed
Well i can understand that(Vurbmoto did a great job of covering the race). But what about GP articles before the races? Not a single write up, not even a guest write up from Wheeler.

And why am i disappointing by this? Well because RacerX is a quality magazine and they have really good writers/experts. But the 2016 GP coverage is weak.
3/28/2016 2:03pm
I just watched that second MXGP moto (see link below). Wow!! I must say that Im in love with Gajser's riding style...especially since he is a taller rider...to me he was the fastest guy out there, but made too many mistakes.

There are too many tales to tell of that race so I suggest everyone who hasn't seen it yet, give it a look now. Also very happy to say that it isn't Malin commentating but my all time favourite Jack!!


3/28/2016 8:17pm Edited Date/Time 3/28/2016 9:55pm
True moto is 5 abreast fighting for position in a corner half way through a Valkenswaard moto, brutal poetry

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NVA57
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3/28/2016 11:37pm
Are Leok and Kutsar riding stock KTM's? No logo on the entire bike except for the forks. Also looked like a stock silencer on Leok's bike. #7 in mxgp and #132 in mx2
philG
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3/29/2016 12:12am
NVA57 wrote:
Are Leok and Kutsar riding stock KTM's? No logo on the entire bike except for the forks. Also looked like a stock silencer on Leok's bike...
Are Leok and Kutsar riding stock KTM's? No logo on the entire bike except for the forks. Also looked like a stock silencer on Leok's bike. #7 in mxgp and #132 in mx2
They were both NFG KTM's , not a single logo on either bike, and plain Seven kit for both of them.

Leok rode well in both races , Kutsar was going ok too, both guys were suffering from what is becoming a common sight in heavy going, which is a proper steaming KTM .. Vlanderen's was the same , and it quit in Moto 1
NVA57
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3/29/2016 1:28am
NVA57 wrote:
Are Leok and Kutsar riding stock KTM's? No logo on the entire bike except for the forks. Also looked like a stock silencer on Leok's bike...
Are Leok and Kutsar riding stock KTM's? No logo on the entire bike except for the forks. Also looked like a stock silencer on Leok's bike. #7 in mxgp and #132 in mx2
philG wrote:
They were both NFG KTM's , not a single logo on either bike, and plain Seven kit for both of them. Leok rode well in both...
They were both NFG KTM's , not a single logo on either bike, and plain Seven kit for both of them.

Leok rode well in both races , Kutsar was going ok too, both guys were suffering from what is becoming a common sight in heavy going, which is a proper steaming KTM .. Vlanderen's was the same , and it quit in Moto 1
Yup, I saw at least 5 KTM's steaming in the first moto in MX2
philG
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3/29/2016 2:09am
NVA57 wrote:
Are Leok and Kutsar riding stock KTM's? No logo on the entire bike except for the forks. Also looked like a stock silencer on Leok's bike...
Are Leok and Kutsar riding stock KTM's? No logo on the entire bike except for the forks. Also looked like a stock silencer on Leok's bike. #7 in mxgp and #132 in mx2
philG wrote:
They were both NFG KTM's , not a single logo on either bike, and plain Seven kit for both of them. Leok rode well in both...
They were both NFG KTM's , not a single logo on either bike, and plain Seven kit for both of them.

Leok rode well in both races , Kutsar was going ok too, both guys were suffering from what is becoming a common sight in heavy going, which is a proper steaming KTM .. Vlanderen's was the same , and it quit in Moto 1
NVA57 wrote:
Yup, I saw at least 5 KTM's steaming in the first moto in MX2
saw it at the Hawkstone International too, this isn't just steaming out of the breather , this is full on boiling over. Seems the Husky is the same too.
3/29/2016 2:14am
the last lap in the second heat is gonna hurt in the Cairoli camp. Febvre beats Cairoli in his speciality ... a pass in the last lap.
3/29/2016 2:17am
What happened with the Martens Husky team?
Mewse was outstanding in EMX250, but Anstie and Covington never got the pace to get in the top 10.
rainv99
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3/29/2016 2:19am
NVA57 wrote:
Are Leok and Kutsar riding stock KTM's? No logo on the entire bike except for the forks. Also looked like a stock silencer on Leok's bike...
Are Leok and Kutsar riding stock KTM's? No logo on the entire bike except for the forks. Also looked like a stock silencer on Leok's bike. #7 in mxgp and #132 in mx2
Yes they are both on completely stock bikes. Only suspension is not stock. Leok deserves a better bike. He crashed on last lap of second moto because of lapped rider. Lost 2 positions. Kutsar had engine overheating problems in both motos and could not ride with full speed. They are true privateers.
roninho
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3/29/2016 2:41am Edited Date/Time 3/29/2016 2:42am
bongobongo wrote:
What happened with the Martens Husky team?
Mewse was outstanding in EMX250, but Anstie and Covington never got the pace to get in the top 10.
Covington broke his ankle during training last week. The doctor allowed him to ride, it was up to Covington to handle the pain. Finished outside the points in one moto and retired with a broken radiator in another.

Anstie just doesnt make sense at all. He's not injured, it was just bad starts and not the pace to move up much.
roninho
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3/29/2016 2:52am
rainv99 wrote:
Yes they are both on completely stock bikes. Only suspension is not stock. Leok deserves a better bike. He crashed on last lap of second moto...
Yes they are both on completely stock bikes. Only suspension is not stock. Leok deserves a better bike. He crashed on last lap of second moto because of lapped rider. Lost 2 positions. Kutsar had engine overheating problems in both motos and could not ride with full speed. They are true privateers.
Who pays for these rides?

My brother, who is not into MX joined me at Valkenswaard on sunday, and halfway during the day his comment was: What's up with the riders jerseys and bike colors, don't they want to show their sponsors or don't they have a sponsor? As he said: 80% of these guys all i see is ''fox'' or ''alpinestars'' and ''yamaha'' or ''ktm''.

I must say never thought about that, but i can't see riders in EMX (except for a few) or outside top 10-20 in GP have their bike and jersey sponsor pay the bill. Or am i missing something?

rainv99
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3/29/2016 2:58am
rainv99 wrote:
Yes they are both on completely stock bikes. Only suspension is not stock. Leok deserves a better bike. He crashed on last lap of second moto...
Yes they are both on completely stock bikes. Only suspension is not stock. Leok deserves a better bike. He crashed on last lap of second moto because of lapped rider. Lost 2 positions. Kutsar had engine overheating problems in both motos and could not ride with full speed. They are true privateers.
roninho wrote:
Who pays for these rides? My brother, who is not into MX joined me at Valkenswaard on sunday, and halfway during the day his comment was...
Who pays for these rides?

My brother, who is not into MX joined me at Valkenswaard on sunday, and halfway during the day his comment was: What's up with the riders jerseys and bike colors, don't they want to show their sponsors or don't they have a sponsor? As he said: 80% of these guys all i see is ''fox'' or ''alpinestars'' and ''yamaha'' or ''ktm''.

I must say never thought about that, but i can't see riders in EMX (except for a few) or outside top 10-20 in GP have their bike and jersey sponsor pay the bill. Or am i missing something?

Some friends help them with travel money and entry fees. No real sponsors.
3/29/2016 3:06am Edited Date/Time 3/29/2016 3:07am
roninho wrote:
Who pays for these rides? My brother, who is not into MX joined me at Valkenswaard on sunday, and halfway during the day his comment was...
Who pays for these rides?

My brother, who is not into MX joined me at Valkenswaard on sunday, and halfway during the day his comment was: What's up with the riders jerseys and bike colors, don't they want to show their sponsors or don't they have a sponsor? As he said: 80% of these guys all i see is ''fox'' or ''alpinestars'' and ''yamaha'' or ''ktm''.

I must say never thought about that, but i can't see riders in EMX (except for a few) or outside top 10-20 in GP have their bike and jersey sponsor pay the bill. Or am i missing something?

most of them have smal sponsors, few of them are maybe lucky to get a bike (in loan, they have to give it back at the end of the season) . Most of them just pay the bill themself (or dad).

A lot of riders pay a lot of money to race the MX2 class. EMX250 is much cheaper. Look at the top 10 in Valkenswaard, Heibey, Wouts, Kouwenberg, Lundgrenn, Olsen have tried to race MX2 before, they all stepped back to EMX250.
Motofinne
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3/29/2016 3:06am Edited Date/Time 3/29/2016 3:07am
rainv99 wrote:
Yes they are both on completely stock bikes. Only suspension is not stock. Leok deserves a better bike. He crashed on last lap of second moto...
Yes they are both on completely stock bikes. Only suspension is not stock. Leok deserves a better bike. He crashed on last lap of second moto because of lapped rider. Lost 2 positions. Kutsar had engine overheating problems in both motos and could not ride with full speed. They are true privateers.
roninho wrote:
Who pays for these rides? My brother, who is not into MX joined me at Valkenswaard on sunday, and halfway during the day his comment was...
Who pays for these rides?

My brother, who is not into MX joined me at Valkenswaard on sunday, and halfway during the day his comment was: What's up with the riders jerseys and bike colors, don't they want to show their sponsors or don't they have a sponsor? As he said: 80% of these guys all i see is ''fox'' or ''alpinestars'' and ''yamaha'' or ''ktm''.

I must say never thought about that, but i can't see riders in EMX (except for a few) or outside top 10-20 in GP have their bike and jersey sponsor pay the bill. Or am i missing something?

rainv99 wrote:
Some friends help them with travel money and entry fees. No real sponsors.
Didn't Kutsar race multiple years for the Sahkar team? What happened with that?
rainv99
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3/29/2016 3:14am
roninho wrote:
Who pays for these rides? My brother, who is not into MX joined me at Valkenswaard on sunday, and halfway during the day his comment was...
Who pays for these rides?

My brother, who is not into MX joined me at Valkenswaard on sunday, and halfway during the day his comment was: What's up with the riders jerseys and bike colors, don't they want to show their sponsors or don't they have a sponsor? As he said: 80% of these guys all i see is ''fox'' or ''alpinestars'' and ''yamaha'' or ''ktm''.

I must say never thought about that, but i can't see riders in EMX (except for a few) or outside top 10-20 in GP have their bike and jersey sponsor pay the bill. Or am i missing something?

rainv99 wrote:
Some friends help them with travel money and entry fees. No real sponsors.
Motofinne wrote:
Didn't Kutsar race multiple years for the Sahkar team? What happened with that?
Sahkar has two riders this year. Jago Geerts and Hardi Roosiorg. As Roosiorg moved to MX2 this year then no place for Kutsar. Leok and Kutsar ride under Sõmerpalu motoclub name. Some teams already talked to Leok and Kutsar for hiring them. Kutsar already rode with Marchetti racing bike in Thai.
roninho
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3/29/2016 3:15am
roninho wrote:
Who pays for these rides? My brother, who is not into MX joined me at Valkenswaard on sunday, and halfway during the day his comment was...
Who pays for these rides?

My brother, who is not into MX joined me at Valkenswaard on sunday, and halfway during the day his comment was: What's up with the riders jerseys and bike colors, don't they want to show their sponsors or don't they have a sponsor? As he said: 80% of these guys all i see is ''fox'' or ''alpinestars'' and ''yamaha'' or ''ktm''.

I must say never thought about that, but i can't see riders in EMX (except for a few) or outside top 10-20 in GP have their bike and jersey sponsor pay the bill. Or am i missing something?

bongobongo wrote:
most of them have smal sponsors, few of them are maybe lucky to get a bike (in loan, they have to give it back at the...
most of them have smal sponsors, few of them are maybe lucky to get a bike (in loan, they have to give it back at the end of the season) . Most of them just pay the bill themself (or dad).

A lot of riders pay a lot of money to race the MX2 class. EMX250 is much cheaper. Look at the top 10 in Valkenswaard, Heibey, Wouts, Kouwenberg, Lundgrenn, Olsen have tried to race MX2 before, they all stepped back to EMX250.
Any insight on what a EMX250 season would cost?
3/29/2016 3:35am
roninho wrote:
Any insight on what a EMX250 season would cost?
don't know ...

9 rounds: 300 euro x 9 = 2700

international license: 400 euro?

2 tuned bikes: 10 000 x 2= 20 000 (or more, depends on tuning)

spare parts

travel: depends on where you live. depends on how you do it (riders travel by plane or travel with the mechanic by camper)

mechanic: if you are Lucky, you're dad or a good friend you don't have to pay
roninho
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3/29/2016 5:29am
Ok so let's build from your input:

2 bikes: -25.000
spare parts & tyres: -10.000 (1000 euro per event, not sure if thats reasonable)
entries: - 3.000
Travel fuelcosts: - 4.000 ((based on 10.000 km for the 10 events @40 cents)
Bus/camper depreciation: - 3.000 (i can get a nice 2nd hand cross camper for 20-25k)
Mechanic - 5.000 (10 events, average of 5 days per event @ 100 euro)
Sale bikes end season: +10.000 (recoup some of the costs of the bikes)
---------
-40.000

Think that would be a decent ballpark figure?

You could save on the mechanic.
And for a guy riding the national championship that wants to go for an EMX championship the actual additional costs will be much less since they will allready have the bikes and camper.

roninho
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3/29/2016 5:33am
Additional question: What makes the GP series so much more expensive? Forget overseas GPs, and that there are more GP's. But if you do 10 GP's versus 10 EMX rounds, what makes it more expensive? I've heard numbers like 250.000 euro for a year GPs.

There is the difference in entry fees (300 euro vs 1.000 i believe), so that's that. But other then that?
Motofinne
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3/29/2016 5:38am
The biggest Finnish offroad magazine OffroadPRO did an article on how much the EMX and GP series can cost for a non factory rider. I think MBR would be the best person the explain how much it is!
3/29/2016 6:02am
roninho wrote:
Additional question: What makes the GP series so much more expensive? Forget overseas GPs, and that there are more GP's. But if you do 10 GP's...
Additional question: What makes the GP series so much more expensive? Forget overseas GPs, and that there are more GP's. But if you do 10 GP's versus 10 EMX rounds, what makes it more expensive? I've heard numbers like 250.000 euro for a year GPs.

There is the difference in entry fees (300 euro vs 1.000 i believe), so that's that. But other then that?
racing 8 EMX or 8 Gp's means ad difference of (8x300) - (8x1000) 5600 euro. To a lot of people, it's a lot of money.

Remember, you get nothing in return. Most of the riders know they are not gonna make big money with MX. They are happy if they can live a few years like a pro.

When you are racing MX2 you got to be in one of the accredited teams. You can hope for a wildcard, but you are not sure you can race the Gp's you want to race.

Getting in a team means you (when you'r name is not Herlings) have to pay for the package. You pay and get the bikes, mechanic, hospitality ... in return.
When you're lucky, you bring along a sponsor to pay or the team finds a sponsor who wants you in the team.
Robgvx
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3/29/2016 6:16am Edited Date/Time 3/29/2016 6:18am
roninho wrote:
Additional question: What makes the GP series so much more expensive? Forget overseas GPs, and that there are more GP's. But if you do 10 GP's...
Additional question: What makes the GP series so much more expensive? Forget overseas GPs, and that there are more GP's. But if you do 10 GP's versus 10 EMX rounds, what makes it more expensive? I've heard numbers like 250.000 euro for a year GPs.

There is the difference in entry fees (300 euro vs 1.000 i believe), so that's that. But other then that?
bongobongo wrote:
racing 8 EMX or 8 Gp's means ad difference of (8x300) - (8x1000) 5600 euro. To a lot of people, it's a lot of money. Remember...
racing 8 EMX or 8 Gp's means ad difference of (8x300) - (8x1000) 5600 euro. To a lot of people, it's a lot of money.

Remember, you get nothing in return. Most of the riders know they are not gonna make big money with MX. They are happy if they can live a few years like a pro.

When you are racing MX2 you got to be in one of the accredited teams. You can hope for a wildcard, but you are not sure you can race the Gp's you want to race.

Getting in a team means you (when you'r name is not Herlings) have to pay for the package. You pay and get the bikes, mechanic, hospitality ... in return.
When you're lucky, you bring along a sponsor to pay or the team finds a sponsor who wants you in the team.
You can't stop teams taking pay riders.

You can't stop wealthy riders buying themselves a place in those teams if they wish.

What you can do is stop those riders buying themselves a place on the start line. It's called 'qualification'.

Drop GP entry costs and you'd get 80 entries minimum per class. (There were 120 EMX riders at Valkenswaard - @€300 entry rather than €1000 for the GP classes). Run proper qualification and you'd have the 40 fastest in the race. Simples!

If the pay riders are fast enough to qualify then good for them. If they're not then it frees up spaces for faster, less wealthy riders who deserve to be there on talent.

Shit, it's not rocket science.
roninho
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3/29/2016 6:32am Edited Date/Time 3/29/2016 6:34am
Is there a technical difference (as in is more tuning allowed in MX2 GP vs EMX250?)

I can see where costs increase massively if you cannot go the full privateer thing (small camper, drive to the races, dad as mechanic) but have to get a ride at one of the accredited teams. All these teams spend major money on big trucks and stuff.

I guess thats the insanity of the whole MX GP system. You have a race on a track that is prepared by volunteers and that you can probably rent next weekend for 1000 euro for the weekend. At least 10.000 people show up paying 70 euro per ticket. Forget title sponsors, food&drinks sales, local subsidies for ''region promotion'' etc. In ticket sales alone you'd have 700.000 euro worth of purses. But instead of the 70 best MX1 and MX2 riders getting 10k each in purses, they have to pay to race.
roninho
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3/29/2016 12:24pm
Motofinne wrote:
The biggest Finnish offroad magazine OffroadPRO did an article on how much the EMX and GP series can cost for a non factory rider. I think...
The biggest Finnish offroad magazine OffroadPRO did an article on how much the EMX and GP series can cost for a non factory rider. I think MBR would be the best person the explain how much it is!
Would be very interested to see that information. MBR on this site?
Motofinne
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3/29/2016 12:30pm
Motofinne wrote:
The biggest Finnish offroad magazine OffroadPRO did an article on how much the EMX and GP series can cost for a non factory rider. I think...
The biggest Finnish offroad magazine OffroadPRO did an article on how much the EMX and GP series can cost for a non factory rider. I think MBR would be the best person the explain how much it is!
roninho wrote:
Would be very interested to see that information. MBR on this site?
Yes. MBR is Manninen Bros Racing. The team that Emil Weckman(the 2015 EMX150 champ) is on. I think they were the ones that did the article!
MBR
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3/30/2016 2:17am Edited Date/Time 3/30/2016 2:28am
Motofinne wrote:
The biggest Finnish offroad magazine OffroadPRO did an article on how much the EMX and GP series can cost for a non factory rider. I think...
The biggest Finnish offroad magazine OffroadPRO did an article on how much the EMX and GP series can cost for a non factory rider. I think MBR would be the best person the explain how much it is!
roninho wrote:
Would be very interested to see that information. MBR on this site?
Yep, racing in Europe is not cheap and you have to be really fast or have really good connections to make any money out of it. Your your 40 000€ pretty much on ball park on the privateer EMX250 budget.

EMX250 privateer style (from Finland. Licence, eating and training track fees not included)Smile
- bikes: 0 - 2000€ / bike. At this level you usually are getting the bikes for loan or for rent from importer or shop)
- parts: 7000€ (discounted price from importer or shop)
- gear: 0€, usually at this level you get those for free.
- fuel, tire, oils: 2500€
- mechanic: 2500€ / month (actually paying the taxes and other stuff)
- camping etc. 500/ month (sleeping in your van)
- sign up and transponder rent: 1015€ / race
- fuel for you van: 3200€ (around 20 000 km)
- ferry tickets (MXGP of GB and from Finland to Germany & back): 1500 €
- toll roads: ? (for example from Trentino to Talavera de la Reina 110€)
30 000 - 60 000€

The other option is to buy your spot on a team (team takes care of building a competitive bike).
Full support (few bikes, mechanic, transportation, place to live, training ect.)
60 000 - 100 000€

Just race support (you live and train home and just fly to the races)
25 000 - 50 000€ plus travel expenses for mechanic & rider around 1300 - 2000€ per race
35 000 - 70 000€
kongols
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3/30/2016 2:49am
roninho wrote:
Ok so let's build from your input: 2 bikes: -25.000 spare parts & tyres: -10.000 (1000 euro per event, not sure if thats reasonable) entries: -...
Ok so let's build from your input:

2 bikes: -25.000
spare parts & tyres: -10.000 (1000 euro per event, not sure if thats reasonable)
entries: - 3.000
Travel fuelcosts: - 4.000 ((based on 10.000 km for the 10 events @40 cents)
Bus/camper depreciation: - 3.000 (i can get a nice 2nd hand cross camper for 20-25k)
Mechanic - 5.000 (10 events, average of 5 days per event @ 100 euro)
Sale bikes end season: +10.000 (recoup some of the costs of the bikes)
---------
-40.000

Think that would be a decent ballpark figure?

You could save on the mechanic.
And for a guy riding the national championship that wants to go for an EMX championship the actual additional costs will be much less since they will allready have the bikes and camper.

Double that and you`ll be close.
kongols
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3/30/2016 2:51am Edited Date/Time 3/30/2016 2:53am
MBR wrote:
Yep, racing in Europe is not cheap and you have to be really fast or have really good connections to make any money out of it...
Yep, racing in Europe is not cheap and you have to be really fast or have really good connections to make any money out of it. Your your 40 000€ pretty much on ball park on the privateer EMX250 budget.

EMX250 privateer style (from Finland. Licence, eating and training track fees not included)Smile
- bikes: 0 - 2000€ / bike. At this level you usually are getting the bikes for loan or for rent from importer or shop)
- parts: 7000€ (discounted price from importer or shop)
- gear: 0€, usually at this level you get those for free.
- fuel, tire, oils: 2500€
- mechanic: 2500€ / month (actually paying the taxes and other stuff)
- camping etc. 500/ month (sleeping in your van)
- sign up and transponder rent: 1015€ / race
- fuel for you van: 3200€ (around 20 000 km)
- ferry tickets (MXGP of GB and from Finland to Germany & back): 1500 €
- toll roads: ? (for example from Trentino to Talavera de la Reina 110€)
30 000 - 60 000€

The other option is to buy your spot on a team (team takes care of building a competitive bike).
Full support (few bikes, mechanic, transportation, place to live, training ect.)
60 000 - 100 000€

Just race support (you live and train home and just fly to the races)
25 000 - 50 000€ plus travel expenses for mechanic & rider around 1300 - 2000€ per race
35 000 - 70 000€
That`s about right. The bikes cost more. Stock ~7000, but they buy it back for around 4300. 3-4 bikes a season.
Last year expenses were around 65000 for a EMX250 rider.

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