GM I hope you take it in the...

Tiki
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Edited Date/Time 1/17/2012 1:07am
STFU and stop asking for money. Just deal with it. You can produce all you want south of our border.

*************************************************

GM Mexican Plants Expand as Carmaker Seeks Funds for Rescue

By Thomas Black

Dec. 17 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp., the biggest automaker in the U.S. and Mexico, increased production of $12,625 Chevrolet Aveos south of the border while seeking a bailout to keep domestic plants from closing.

The Detroit-based company and competitors such as Ford Motor Co. shifted more manufacturing to Mexico this year to capitalize on wages less than an eighth of those in the U.S. and factories that make fuel-efficient models. Through November, Mexican plants turned out 5 percent more vehicles than a year earlier, versus an estimated decline of 30 percent in the U.S.

Mexico is so far weathering the collapse of the global auto industry better than its North American neighbors. Even with a projected decrease in production of as much as 20 percent in 2009, the world’s 10th-largest maker of light vehicles will still suffer less than the U.S. or Canada, according to Eduardo Solis, president of the Mexican Automobile Industry Association.

“The type of vehicle that’s produced in Mexico for the cost that it’s produced and the proximity to the U.S. are factors helping us fare better than other countries,” said Emilio Mosso, a deputy director at the Mexican Economy Ministry.

Thanks to investments by most of the major producers, Mexico has developed a high quality, low-cost manufacturing base. Assembly-line technology is now sophisticated enough to let the nation expand into aerospace, with Bombardier Inc., Safran SA and Honeywell International Inc. investing in operations in recent months.

“The number of errors produced in Mexico is relatively lower than in other countries,” Adolfo Albo, an economist in Mexico City with Spain’s Banco Bilbao Vizcaya Argentaria SA said in a telephone interview. “Plants are newer and the training processes are more effective.”

Small-Car Production

Output there also favors small and mid-size vehicles, which make up almost three-quarters of those manufactured. Other models produced in Mexico include the Pontiac G3, Ford Fusion, Volkswagen Beetle and Dodge Journey, a new car-based, sport- utility vehicle.

The product mix positions the industry to grab market share in coming years as consumers seek out fuel efficiency, Mosso said. Through November, Mexico had gained a percentage point to 26 percent of U.S. imports this year, even though close to 30,000 fewer cars from there were sold in the states than in the same period of 2007.

That said, Mexico won’t be immune to the global drop-off in vehicle sales. More than 70 percent of its cars end up in the U.S. where sales in November fell to the lowest annual rate in 26 years, according to Autodata Corp.

Export Decline

Exports to the U.S. slipped 2.6 percent to 1.1 million autos and light trucks through November versus the same period last year. That compares with an 11 percent drop for South Korea, a 9.8 percent decline for Germany and a 7.4 percent slide for Japan, the auto industry association said.

The drop was offset by increased shipments to Europe and South America in the first 11 months. Sales of Mexican exports were up 4 percent through November.

“It’s a world automobile industry crisis that we haven’t yet felt because of those export markets, which next year simply won’t be there,” Solis said.

Still, the “pothole” the industry hit won’t last forever, said Gustavo Cespedes, 46, vehicle manufacturing director for GM North America, who is slated to become chief of the company’s San Luis Potosi plant in January. “Here in Mexico, I believe we’re in a favorable position.”

Labor Costs

Lower labor costs are the biggest advantage. At around $3 an hour, the average Mexican wage is less than one-eighth of those in the U.S.’s $25.34 and one-seventh of Canada’s $21.38, according to Sergio Ornelas, the president of industrial park operator Intermex, which provides real estate services to auto and car-parts producers. Ornelas cited information compiled from the Boston Consulting Group, the U.S. Department of Labor and The Economist Intelligence Unit during a recent conference in San Luis Potosi.

Auto companies contribute to a government-run health system and mandated individual retirement accounts for each worker, which keep health and pension-benefit costs low compared with the U.S., Ornelas said.

The push into Mexico by U.S. car companies could be slowed by restrictions put on GM and Chrysler LLC for accepting Troubled Asset Relief Program funds, said George Magliano, senior auto analyst at Global Insight Inc. in an interview at the San Luis Potosi conference.

“This money is going to come with a tremendous amount of strings,” he said. “If they give you $25 billion and you start closing all your U.S. industry, that could be an issue.”

Bankruptcy Impact

If GM and Chrysler are forced to declare bankruptcy, it may speed up the transfer of production to Mexico as carmakers seek to slash expenses, said Nick Criss, executive director of industrial services in the nation for real estate broker Cushman & Wakefield Inc.

“Mexico tends to be the core manufacturer for many companies because it’s a low-cost center,” Criss said.

GM, for instance, has invested $3.6 billion in Mexico in the last three years. Its auto and light truck production there rose 28 percent in November, the national car industry association said on Dec. 9.

The company said total output in North America, including Mexico, fell 32 percent for the same month to 249,000 vehicles. GM declined to break out its Mexican production.

Ford spent $1.2 billion in 2005 to increase output in Hermosillo of its mid-size Fusion sedan. Production in Mexico from January to November rose 1.5 percent, while it fell 26 percent in the U.S. and 9 percent in Canada, it said.

Investment Increases

Chrysler is building a $570 million factory near Saltillo, Coahuila, that will produce 440,000 engines a year, said Manuel Duarte, a Mexico City-based spokesman. It has canceled one of its two work shifts at a light truck plant there, Duarte said.

China FAW Group Corp. has announced plans to build a car factory in Michoacan on the Pacific coast that will begin operation in 2010. Other Asian companies, including Hyundai Motor Co., South Korea’s biggest automaker, and Tata Motors Ltd., the Mumbai-based maker of Jaguar and Land Rover vehicles, are looking to invest for the first time, Mosso said. Toyota Motor Corp. increased capacity last year at a plant in Tijuana to 50,000 Tacoma trucks.

The wave of investment helped Mexico expand its production to more than 2 million cars in 2007 from 1.54 million in 2003. Mexican car output is forecast to rise to 3 million units by 2015, Magliano said.

U.S. in Reverse

Over the same period, the U.S. industry has gone in reverse, dropping 12 percent to 10.54 million vehicles last year from 11.92 million in 2003, according to CSM Worldwide. The seasonally adjusted annual rate through November plummeted to 8.71 million cars and light trucks, CSM Worldwide said in a Dec. 15 statement.

Mexico also has 12 free-trade pacts, including ones with Japan, the European Union, Chile, Colombia and Israel, and preferential tariff access with 44 other countries, Mosso said.

“We have intrinsic advantages in Mexico that nobody can take away,” GM’s Cespedes said.

To contact the reporter on this story: Thomas Black in Monterrey, Mexico, at tblack@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: December 17, 2008 00:01 EST

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Shiftfaced
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12/17/2008 1:42pm
In my opinion, we need to do all we can to keep manufacturing here, in the States.

Outsourcing might look good for the bottom line of companies, and investors, but it is kicking the middle class in the nards.

Here is a good article by Pat Buchanan:

"GOP to Detroit: Drop Dead!"

So may have read the headline Friday, had not President Bush stepped in to save GM, Ford and Chrysler, which Senate Republicans had just voted to send to the knacker's yard.

What are Republicans thinking of, pulling the plug, at Christmas, on GM, risking swift death for the greatest manufacturing company in American history, a strategic asset and pillar of the U.S. economy.

The $14 billion loan to the Big Three that Republican senators filibustered to death is just 2 percent of the $700 billion the Senate voted to bail out Wall Street. Having gone along with bailouts of Bear Stearns, AIG, Fannie, Freddie and CitiGroup, why refuse a reprieve to an industry upon which millions of the best blue-collar jobs in America depend?

In a good year, Americans buy 17 million cars. A more populous EU probably buys as many. Three billion people in India, Southeast Asia and China, four times as many people as there are in the EU and United States, are moving toward the middle class. They, too, will be wanting cars. And millions of them love American cars.

Is the Republican Party so fanatic in its ideology that, rather than sin against a commandment of Milton Friedman, it is willing to see America written forever out of this fantastic market, let millions of jobs vanish and write off the industrial Midwest?

So it would seem. "Companies fail every day, and others take their place," said Sen. Richard Shelby on "Face the Nation."

Presumably, the companies that will "take their place," when GM, Ford and Chrysler die, are German, Japanese or Korean, like the ones lured into Shelby's state of Alabama, with the bait of subsidies free-market Republicans are supposed to abhor.

In 1993, Alabama put together a $258 million package to bring a Mercedes plant in. In 1999, Honda was offered $158 million to build a plant there. In 2002, Alabama won a Hyundai plant by offering a $252 million subsidy.

"We have a number of profitable automakers in America, and they should not be disadvantaged for making wise business decisions while failure is rewarded," says Sen. Jim DeMint of South Carolina.

DeMint is referring to "profitable automakers" like BMW, which sited a plant in Spartanburg, after South Carolina offered the Germans a $150 million subsidy and $80 million to expand.
Be it BMW, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi or Hyundai, the South has become a sanctuary for foreign assembly plants, for which Southern states have been paying subsidies.

Fine. But why this "Let-them-eat-cake!" coldness toward U.S. auto companies? General Motors employs more workers than all these foreign plants combined. And, unlike Mitsubishi, General Motors didn't bomb Pearl Harbor.

Do these Southern senators understand why the foreign automakers suddenly up and decided to build plants in the United States?

It was the economic nationalism of Ronald Reagan.

When an icon of American industry, Harley-Davidson, was being run out of business by cutthroat Japanese dumping of big bikes to kill the "Harley Hog," Reagan slapped 50 percent tariffs on their motorcycles and imposed quotas on imported Japanese cars. Message to Tokyo. If you folks want to keep selling cars here, start building them here.

Fear of Reaganism brought those foreign automakers, lickety-split, to America's shores, not any love of Southern cooking.

Do the Republicans not yet understand how they lost the New Majority coalition that gave them three landslides and five victories in six presidential races from 1968 to 1988? Do they not know why the Reagan Democrats in Pennsylvania, Ohio and Michigan are going home?

The Republican Party gave their jobs away!

How? By telling U.S. manufacturers they could shut plants here, get rid of their U.S. workers, build factories in Mexico, Asia or China, and ship their products back, free of charge.

Republican globalists gave U.S. manufacturers every incentive to go abroad and take their jobs with them, the jobs of Middle America.

And, for 30 years, that is what U.S. manufacturers have done, have been forced to do, as their competitors closed down and moved their plants abroad in search of low-wage Third World labor.

It's Herbert Hoover time in here, Vice President Cheney is said to have told the Senate Republicans -- as they prepared to march out onto the floor and turn thumbs down on any reprieve for General Motors.

In today's world, America faces nationalistic trade rivals who manipulate currencies, employ nontariff barriers, subsidize their manufacturers, rebate value-added taxes on exports to us and impose value-added taxes on imports from us, all to capture our markets and kill our great companies. And we have a Republican Party blissfully ignorant that we live in a world of us or them. It doesn't even know who "us" is.

We need a new team on the field and a new coach who believes with Vince Lombardi that "winning isn't everything. It's the only thing."



Tiki
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12/17/2008 2:31pm
You know I totally agree with you here. But:
"In my opinion, we need to do all we can to keep manufacturing here, in the States.

Outsourcing might look good for the bottom line of companies, and investors, but it is kicking the middle class in the nards. "

3.6 Billion was spent already. Now i'm not one to say we couldn't help, but really they already stuck it to us, no lube now they want us to kiss them and say its all better.

I'm not for being their BITCH, or volunteering anyone else money. Up theirs. If they honestly cared about us the general consensus would be lets help all we can. The brashness of the senior management should be held accountable.

It was their love for a buck that got them into this mess, how about their love for the buck get them out of it. In my opinion they are looking for the quick fix easy way out.
Shiftfaced
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12/17/2008 2:42pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 9:33pm
Yeah, it is kinda difficult to nationalize every damn industry we have. I am sure we all saw that joke getting floated around the intar-webs about spending your "stimulus" checks on alcohol; drugs and hookers, to ensure that those monies stayed in our economy.Laughing

I don't see this an a union/anti-union issue, nor really foreign vs. domestic.

I see SKADS of people, not only the Big 3 workers, but their suppliers, as well as prehipherial workers who will get a pink slip when these three shutter.

Sure, the "foreign" manufacturers will pick up some slack, over time. But those profits will likely go to Japan.

No easy answers, and I don't pretend to have them. I am just not looking forward to soup lines that will likely come.

jgmxdad251
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12/17/2008 2:43pm
I agree with you shitfaced (hey that sounds funny) taking jobs from middle class america and giving them to people in Mexico only helps the share holders. Somebody needs to come up with a plan to keep jobs here. If it means cutting some of there pension than so be it. They need to get a third party consultant that has some creditability and experience in this type of situation and get with the leaders of the big three and figure out WTF to do. Keep the jobs here.

The Shop

Shiftfaced
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12/17/2008 2:58pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 9:33pm
Again, I don't know the truth, only what I read in the biased, commie, liberal media.

But, I am under the impression that today's worker, regardless of the factory, is making very close to the same wage. Where the Big 3 get it in the shorts is carrying those who have already retired. The "foreign" factories who have located stateside don't have that burden because they are too "young", having only started manufacturing here in the mid to late 80's, and most factories later than that.

Besides, nobody gets a "pension" anymore. It is all 401k now, and has been since day 1 for the "foreign" factories.

Plus, we are living a lot longer than what was expected, so the payouts are longer than expected.

I hate to be a commie and all, but what if nationalizing health care made the USA competetive in manufacturing again?

Is that a decent trade-off?

Because, the way I see it, if a deal is made to keep the Big 3 competitive in today's market, a lot of old fogies are gonna be removed from thier (meaning GM, Chrylser and Ford) health programs, and the taxpayer is gonna pick up that tab.

Just thinkin' out loud.....
Tiki
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12/17/2008 3:29pm
Just thinkin' out loud.....

Isnt that what we are all doing here?
Shiftfaced
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12/17/2008 3:31pm Edited Date/Time 12/17/2008 3:32pm
Post Deleted, because the poster was being an elitist asshole.
Shiftfaced
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12/17/2008 3:46pm
Here is another known conservative, Ben Stein, who is saying that we cannot let the manufacturing leave the states:


(CBS) What economic problem should be the government's top priority? Contributor Ben Stein has his nominee:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's getting ugly out there.

America's Big Three automakers - GM, Ford and Chrysler - are not so big any more. They are on the ropes, in urgent danger of simply running out of cash.

Their executives and the unions who represent their workers, are pleading for a massive bailout from us, the taxpayers. President-elect Obama agrees with them.

Now there are plenty of good reasons to say no. After all, the Big Three have made every mistake in the book: far too lush employee contracts, poorly designed and poorly built cars that often burn too much gasoline.

Meanwhile, the Asian and German automakers with plants in the southern U.S. do a far better job at making cars people want to drive.

Mr. Bush, egged on by his own Dr. Evil, Henry Paulson, Secretary of the Treasury, is saying that Uncle Sam will not agree to a bailout. And in a way, I sympathize with President Bush and Secretary Paulson.

Still, the Obama team and the Democrats have this one right: The taxpayers just have to save Detroit.

We are in an economic tailspin. We cannot allow the roughly three million workers connected to the Big Three auto industry to fall into the ranks of the unemployed. It is possible that this nightmare could push the oncoming recession into being a Depression, something we definitely do not want to ever again experience.

Plus, we need a powerful domestic motor industry for defense purposes, to be able to convert to making tanks and military trucks if they had to.

Bankruptcy is not a good option. Who would buy a car made by a company in bankruptcy? After all, would the company even be there when you wanted your car serviced or repaired? And how could workers handle extended layoffs while it all got sorted out?
Yes, we need strict standards for revamping Detroit, maybe even bringing in supervisors from Toyota, BMW and Nissan. Yes, we need to make sure Detroit makes cleaner, more efficient vehicles.

But this economy is in enough trouble already. With our hearts in our mouths, we beg you, Mr. Bush, save Detroit now before it's too late for them, and too late for us.

America is not America without a big domestic motor industry. And yes, what's good for General Motors is good for America.
Tiki
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12/17/2008 4:00pm
Shiftfaced wrote:
Yeah, it is kinda difficult to nationalize every damn industry we have. I am sure we all saw that joke getting floated around the intar-webs about...
Yeah, it is kinda difficult to nationalize every damn industry we have. I am sure we all saw that joke getting floated around the intar-webs about spending your "stimulus" checks on alcohol; drugs and hookers, to ensure that those monies stayed in our economy.Laughing

I don't see this an a union/anti-union issue, nor really foreign vs. domestic.

I see SKADS of people, not only the Big 3 workers, but their suppliers, as well as prehipherial workers who will get a pink slip when these three shutter.

Sure, the "foreign" manufacturers will pick up some slack, over time. But those profits will likely go to Japan.

No easy answers, and I don't pretend to have them. I am just not looking forward to soup lines that will likely come.

Sure, the "foreign" manufacturers will pick up some slack, over time. But those profits will likely go to Japan.

Even if they are, the money is still being spent in the states. That is more then what the big three are doing when they send money out of country to Canada and Mexico.

Its like the term buy local. Support your local shop etc. You and I both come from small towns. Even if you are giving your money to Johnny shop owner and he still buys from out of the area, you have participated to his profit which he will keep in town and spread the money. Restaurants, groceries, gas etc. Money is circulated locally. Start sending money out of the country, there's no circulation back to the states. Unless you are hedging your bet that some boarder skipper is going to buy a GM auto is slim. From being in Monterrey where all these plants are, the people that live and work their have NO interest in leaving and coming to America. Why should they? Money is flowing, homes are new, every American retailer is setting up shop. It's America with less calories but just as filling.

Another out loud thought.
Motodude
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12/17/2008 4:03pm
The only way to keep the US manufacturing is to restrict Union power. Look, they screwed the workers by making out they are tough negotiators, all the worker got was retrenchment.

Unemployment benefits wont last forever as the economies go down. Read soup kitchens.

Would you rather work for less money or sit on the porch on even less money?

THIS is why jobs have gone off shore in the first place.
jgmxdad251
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Im not very smart, so help me out here. I realize that that the big three are fucked up, but when you have companies that big dont you have people that forsee what the future holds? why didnt the share holders or gov fight for higher tarrifs on these companies coming in? I know they brought jobs to americans, but no way as many as the big three and all the people that make parts for them. Its not the workers fault that the other companies have been in business a shorter time than them. And yes im thinking out loud. (but not very well, of course)
Shiftfaced
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12/17/2008 4:18pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 9:33pm
We need a heavy dose of nationalism when it comes to auto purchases, akin to the Hardly Ableson resurrection.

They quit spending money on R & D back around what? 1945?

But Hardley owners would not even DREAM of owning a different ride. It is Americana, and that is all they need to know.

A Kentucky red-neck wanting an Audi? We simply cannot accept that.

(No disrepect intended Kasper. I had to call you a red-neck for effect.)
Shiftfaced
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12/17/2008 4:22pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 9:33pm
jgmxdad251 wrote:
Im not very smart, so help me out here. I realize that that the big three are fucked up, but when you have companies that big...
Im not very smart, so help me out here. I realize that that the big three are fucked up, but when you have companies that big dont you have people that forsee what the future holds? why didnt the share holders or gov fight for higher tarrifs on these companies coming in? I know they brought jobs to americans, but no way as many as the big three and all the people that make parts for them. Its not the workers fault that the other companies have been in business a shorter time than them. And yes im thinking out loud. (but not very well, of course)
but when you have companies that big dont you have people that forsee what the future holds

I believe that is a very strong and valid argument. Everybody loves to pile on the union guy, and his "contract", but didn't management agree to that contract?

They (management) control the product line, and the BIGGEST blow to the BIG 3 was that their product line was heavy on the gas guzzlers, and when gas went to $4.00+ a gallon, people finally made some decisions that pushed them to other products.

But, some just want to blame the union guy. To me, that is playing the political game (of busting the unions) regardless of the cost.

Disclaimer: Just thinkin' out loud. Just one dummies opinion. Disregard at your own discretion.
Tiki
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12/17/2008 4:23pm
jgmxdad251 wrote:
Im not very smart, so help me out here. I realize that that the big three are fucked up, but when you have companies that big...
Im not very smart, so help me out here. I realize that that the big three are fucked up, but when you have companies that big dont you have people that forsee what the future holds? why didnt the share holders or gov fight for higher tarrifs on these companies coming in? I know they brought jobs to americans, but no way as many as the big three and all the people that make parts for them. Its not the workers fault that the other companies have been in business a shorter time than them. And yes im thinking out loud. (but not very well, of course)
From your first sentence. You would think a business 100 years old would see this coming?
WhipMeister
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12/17/2008 4:24pm
I think Buchanan and Stein are saying the same thing.

You give US companies the same incentives you poured all over the foreign makers to get their factories built here AND you level the labor/pension cost field and you'll solve a lot of problems. Once the core of American manufacturing implodes, it will be nearly impossible to re-build it. Then what are we left with?
Shiftfaced
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12/17/2008 4:29pm
I don't know you from Adam, Kasper, which is obvious.

You are making some beautiful homes, the types of homes that I will likely only visit, and never own.

Honestly, I believe that the term "red-neck" is a compliment. Something about the northern miners heading down to the West Virginia region to push back against oppresive mine owners down there, or something along those lines.

It is a slur that is now meant to be demeaning, and I don't really know how that happened. Again, I only said it for effect.

Peace.
Tiki
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12/17/2008 4:29pm
Lets see pics of the Audi truck?
WhipMeister
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12/17/2008 4:48pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 9:33pm
I think it's a convenient popular notion, but actually a red herring, to point to a 'preference for making gas guzzlers' as the reason for the recent demise of the US car makers. First, yeah, they make some big, thirsty, cars, but so does Toyota (Sequoia or LX450, anyone?) and Nissan (Armada?) and Mercedes and BMW. We've owned a lot of em. Second, U.S. car makers have been losing domestic market share to the other guys for a couple of decades. A lot of that because of public perception of popular myths like 'better quality' and 'better economy'. Some is deserved, a lot of it isn't. I've owned some really great, economical American cars and some crummy, expensive overseas stuff.


The net of it is EVERYONE is having trouble moving cars right now. News Bulletin: THE MONEY FOR FINANCING DISAPPEARED! The only reason you are just hearing about Honda, et al, curtailing things like their racing programs and not going to their own government for a handout is they were better postured to weather the storm because their market share has been expanding steadily, as have their retained earnings. GM, Chrysler and Ford have been running thin for years.


Certainly a lot of that can be laid at the feet of the execs. But a lot of it can be laid at the feet of the American car buyer, too. You want to know a funny thing? They love Buicks in China. Can't get enough of them. GM sells about twice as many Buicks over there as they do here.


Perception is reality.
ACMYERS
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12/17/2008 4:58pm
Tiki wrote:
Lets see pics of the Audi truck?
Tiki you don't want to see that truck....Just think what a headlight bulb would cost.
Sinbad
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12/17/2008 5:34pm
Shiftfaced wrote:
I don't know you from Adam, Kasper, which is obvious. You are making some beautiful homes, the types of homes that I will likely only visit...
I don't know you from Adam, Kasper, which is obvious.

You are making some beautiful homes, the types of homes that I will likely only visit, and never own.

Honestly, I believe that the term "red-neck" is a compliment. Something about the northern miners heading down to the West Virginia region to push back against oppresive mine owners down there, or something along those lines.

It is a slur that is now meant to be demeaning, and I don't really know how that happened. Again, I only said it for effect.

Peace.
Welcome back NSZ.
txmxer
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12/17/2008 5:42pm
I think it's a convenient popular notion, but actually a red herring, to point to a 'preference for making gas guzzlers' as the reason for the...
I think it's a convenient popular notion, but actually a red herring, to point to a 'preference for making gas guzzlers' as the reason for the recent demise of the US car makers. First, yeah, they make some big, thirsty, cars, but so does Toyota (Sequoia or LX450, anyone?) and Nissan (Armada?) and Mercedes and BMW. We've owned a lot of em. Second, U.S. car makers have been losing domestic market share to the other guys for a couple of decades. A lot of that because of public perception of popular myths like 'better quality' and 'better economy'. Some is deserved, a lot of it isn't. I've owned some really great, economical American cars and some crummy, expensive overseas stuff.


The net of it is EVERYONE is having trouble moving cars right now. News Bulletin: THE MONEY FOR FINANCING DISAPPEARED! The only reason you are just hearing about Honda, et al, curtailing things like their racing programs and not going to their own government for a handout is they were better postured to weather the storm because their market share has been expanding steadily, as have their retained earnings. GM, Chrysler and Ford have been running thin for years.


Certainly a lot of that can be laid at the feet of the execs. But a lot of it can be laid at the feet of the American car buyer, too. You want to know a funny thing? They love Buicks in China. Can't get enough of them. GM sells about twice as many Buicks over there as they do here.


Perception is reality.
good post Whip.
olddude
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12/17/2008 6:10pm
fuckit lets just all grab our guns and move to mexico.
olddude
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12/17/2008 8:56pm
THey
Shiftfaced
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12/18/2008 7:10am
I think it's a convenient popular notion, but actually a red herring, to point to a 'preference for making gas guzzlers' as the reason for the...
I think it's a convenient popular notion, but actually a red herring, to point to a 'preference for making gas guzzlers' as the reason for the recent demise of the US car makers. First, yeah, they make some big, thirsty, cars, but so does Toyota (Sequoia or LX450, anyone?) and Nissan (Armada?) and Mercedes and BMW. We've owned a lot of em. Second, U.S. car makers have been losing domestic market share to the other guys for a couple of decades. A lot of that because of public perception of popular myths like 'better quality' and 'better economy'. Some is deserved, a lot of it isn't. I've owned some really great, economical American cars and some crummy, expensive overseas stuff.


The net of it is EVERYONE is having trouble moving cars right now. News Bulletin: THE MONEY FOR FINANCING DISAPPEARED! The only reason you are just hearing about Honda, et al, curtailing things like their racing programs and not going to their own government for a handout is they were better postured to weather the storm because their market share has been expanding steadily, as have their retained earnings. GM, Chrysler and Ford have been running thin for years.


Certainly a lot of that can be laid at the feet of the execs. But a lot of it can be laid at the feet of the American car buyer, too. You want to know a funny thing? They love Buicks in China. Can't get enough of them. GM sells about twice as many Buicks over there as they do here.


Perception is reality.
txmxer wrote:
good post Whip.
I agree. That is an excellent post.

This is not a Big 3 epidemic, every car manufacturer, worldwide, is currently having problems.

Thanks for keeping me in check.
danman
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Readstown, WI, USA
12/18/2008 7:24am
Here is what I love about the bailout. They want the money to keep the doors open and "Save millions of jobs". Let's say we give it to them, now they work on cutting costs by moving more and more production to Mexico or some other NON-US country. RESULT - LOST JOBS!!!!
Here is my solution to the problem and I know it isn't perfect, but it would send a message.

1) Let them FAIL!
2) We have a ton of retired auto workers collecting a pension. Bail them out by covering their pensions. No idea of the total costs, but it would span 20-30 years or you could just figure out a way to pay each one a lump sum and call it good.
3) OK, they now failed and we have hundreds of thousands or millions out of jobs. Bail them out. Give them like 90% of their wages they make now, tax free, but no health benes for 6 months, or until they either find another job or get called back to the auto plants.
4) This would allow the big 3 to tell the UAW to take a hike and help lower costs overall.
5) Gov't needs to set tariffs on all automotive parts coming into the US. Make it cost more to import these parts/cars!

If they do bail them out, it should be required that they move some of the factories back into the US. Require them to have some high percentage like 85% of their cars be produced in the US by like 2012. This is a tough one though considering the bail out is really a loan and not a "gift".
BMSOB
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PN
12/18/2008 7:59am
Buchanan makes a good point. It's not all GMs or the workers fault.

The Republican Party gave their jobs away!

How? By telling U.S. manufacturers they could shut plants here, get rid of their U.S. workers, build factories in Mexico, Asia or China, and ship their products back, free of charge.

Republican globalists gave U.S. manufacturers every incentive to go abroad and take their jobs with them, the jobs of Middle America.

And, for 30 years, that is what U.S. manufacturers have done, have been forced to do, as their competitors closed down and moved their plants abroad in search of low-wage Third World labor.

It's Herbert Hoover time in here, Vice President Cheney is said to have told the Senate Republicans -- as they prepared to march out onto the floor and turn thumbs down on any reprieve for General Motors.

In today's world, America faces nationalistic trade rivals who manipulate currencies, employ nontariff barriers, subsidize their manufacturers, rebate value-added taxes on exports to us and impose value-added taxes on imports from us, all to capture our markets and kill our great companies. And we have a Republican Party blissfully ignorant that we live in a world of us or them. It doesn't even know who "us" is.


I never in a million years thought I would agree with Dick Cheney on anything but the partisanship being show by the Republicans will guarantee that the economy tanks even further if we allow this to happen. Maybe that's what they want so they can blame it on Obama.
txmxer
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Weatherford, TX, USA
12/18/2008 12:39pm
Isn't it law that any group of employees can unionize at any time?

Toyota, WalMart and others are constantly fighting to keep unions out.

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