crickets

Mike P.
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Chantilly, VA, USA
8/6/2015 1:59pm
Brian I know you rip, but I have not had the pleasure of watching you ride (hope I get to one day :+) But Tommy B went down to Gatorgback (I think) a couple of years back on a 74 Penton 125 and as I understand it, he decimated the competition (even the modern riders) on that little Penton 125...so if you can keep that guy in sight, there is no shame in your game...you are one bad dude!
riv187
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8/6/2015 2:22pm
I was there that day and it was amazing the punishment that little green penton took...Tommy is nice guy and amazing rider. I walked the track to watch him on different sections...he wheelied down those deep sand whoops and made it look pretty. Yes he humiliated everbody and lapped them, except maybe one other expert on a Ultima bike. I was glad I didn't bring my 79 DG RM125 that day to enter as I'd been ashamed. The physical shape he had to be in with leg strength was impressive. I'm more of a sit down rider,LOL,,,my buddy says I look like I'm sponsored by 'Easy Boy recliners' the way I was sitting down last season over everything...The 480 CR made it easy to cruise that way. He threatened to take my seat off this year!
Tom helped me years ago to track down one of the 79 KXs I still got. He (and his brother I believe) built a early CR250, in white, the year before or after the penton and Tom sheered the footpegs off or broke frame in half !
Mike P.
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8/6/2015 3:22pm
Brian,

great story, and this is the first time I have heard a first hand account of the story, but that story did make its way throughout the vintage community (that's awesome!). His brother Steve sold me a cylinder he ported that I put on one of my 83 CR250s. One of these days I'm going to make my way down to FL with several bikes! Thanks Buddy, great story, Mike
Lonestar_399
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8/6/2015 3:34pm
MaxPower wrote:
[URL=http://s1185.photobucket.com/user/samhill64/media/20150805_203722-1_zps3r49pfzi.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z353/samhill64/20150805_203722-1_zps3r49pfzi.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
MXM wrote:
..
Can't you just take this as being a win in some way for the mis-aligned KX? Seriously, they are at least listening and considering which is a big part of the battle. I take this as at least a door opening win. Does it go anywhere from here, who knows? The hard and fast year cut-off is not going to happen as they base their class structure on a formula, always has and I think it always will. There are some very good merits to the formula based structure in my opinion.

The Shop

MXM
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pickstick, BD
8/6/2015 4:09pm Edited Date/Time 8/13/2015 8:54am
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MaxPower
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8/6/2015 4:54pm
MaxPower wrote:
[URL=http://s1185.photobucket.com/user/samhill64/media/20150805_203722-1_zps3r49pfzi.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z353/samhill64/20150805_203722-1_zps3r49pfzi.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
MXM wrote:
..
Can't you just take this as being a win in some way for the mis-aligned KX? Seriously, they are at least listening and considering which is...
Can't you just take this as being a win in some way for the mis-aligned KX? Seriously, they are at least listening and considering which is a big part of the battle. I take this as at least a door opening win. Does it go anywhere from here, who knows? The hard and fast year cut-off is not going to happen as they base their class structure on a formula, always has and I think it always will. There are some very good merits to the formula based structure in my opinion.
Win,lose , I dont care. If i can't race my bike against other 125s of its class then the ahrma is useless to me. Or i could sell it and put the money towards a 1969. BSA because there is a class for that. Maybe Obama could run the Ahrma when he steps down from Prez cause we need change
Lonestar_399
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8/6/2015 5:05pm Edited Date/Time 8/6/2015 8:59pm
MXM, to me it's about putting as many bikes on the track from history. I think I used my 1978 Honda CR125 example about a year ago in this thread. That bike would by a year breakdown most likely have to compete in what AHRMA calls their Grand Prix class. That bike was outclassed by the other manufacturers at the time. Most people would not bother with this bike against a 1978-80 RM125 for example. By allowing it down in the Historic class it has relevance and is competitive against bikes from 1975-1977. My interpretation of this example is AHRMA is actually keeping this bike on the track and in a class racers would feel it's competitive in and desirable to race. Same goes for the 1975 and 1976 KX125 to be allowed to race down a class. If not, I think these bikes stay in someone's garage or worse in the scrapyard.

I get the whole year based cut off and we all know that the disc brake is the hurdle here with the KX's. Trust me this has been discussed in vintage rules circles and has legs, now it's time to sort it out and get these bikes into a more appropriate classification than they are in today. So, back to my point about keeping bikes on the track and not elsewhere...these KX models need the same consideration to keep them on the track and that appears to be in progress.

The bottom line is the more bikes that are classed appropriately, the more bikes on the track...that's the ultimate goal for this preservation.
riv187
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8/6/2015 5:41pm
I explained how in 1985 I got to ride a shops 'new' 1985 rm125 and it was a bow wow engine. So I switched backwards to a older 1983 KX125 I bought and finished 1985 on. In 1986 moved up to a used Barr Competition 1985 KX125(Mad Mike Jones bike)...the KXs 1983-85 where hotrods.
I bought a 1985 RM125 a couple years ago....a yard sale special that needs everything...the whole time one part of me says it's slow,slow slow laugh and walk away.....my 1978 RM125 is faster I swear...but the other side of me said buy it,,cause it'd be fun to ride it again like a time machine to when I was able to go to Gainesville and Daytona. Sure if a CR or KX are lined up I'll be underpowered...but for the nostalgia in me I bought it. I personally would not want to run a older slower class...even if I could on it...I'd be doing it for fun. I'd want to ride equal age bikes even if handicapped...it's a choice I'd make.
There are 2 sides to what we do...for the pure fun and riding a bike of our past-whether it is slow or fast against bikes we raced back then,,,,or hunting down the class hotrod the rules favor to collect trophies.
We should have that same choice...if you choose to buy a slow bike or drum brake bike when a disc was available..it's your choice and people will for nostalgia and memories/ I have. If you search hi and low to get a fast bike you should have same opportunity and choice to race as we did back then. I can't believe 1-2 KXs will kill off a class.
Mike P.
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8/6/2015 5:45pm
Lonestar_399, I get your point with the 78 Elsinore and AHRMA did the right thing because the 78 CR125 was basically the same bike as the 77 & 76 before it. Honda dropped the ball there and AHRMA just corrected it, but that doesn't mean a rider couldn't have put 10" of travel on that bike, but truth be known, the bike was dated by 78 and Honda sold very few of them as the other manufactures had left this bike behind by then. I always liked the motor of the 76 CR and had one back in the day so for no particular reason I built one that looks like the one I rode back in the day but I built it with 10" of travel to race in Grand Prix, by choice. So if you use the year analogy, the bike was manufactured that year and just like in the late 70s, riders did all kinds of mods to their bikes and that was considered "in the spirit of competition" which is a saying right out of the AHRMA handbook, so I think its time for AHRMA to practice what they preach plain and simple. I remember seeing several 77 RMs with 10" of travel on the track back in the day (aftermarket). I didn't see many Honda because people didn't ride them all that much in 78. Here's a picture of mine primed and ready to Grand Prix competition






8/6/2015 5:50pm Edited Date/Time 8/6/2015 6:16pm
On the Dirt Track side, equipment eligibility rules were laughable.

Classic 250 brakeless class started as 68 and earlier models. The most historic motorcycle ever produced in that era was never allowed to compete. The Yamaha DT1 which came out in 1968.

Ahrma's solution; move the eligibility year back one, to 1967. But let like design Bultaco's, BSA, Triumphs up to '71 continue to be legal.

Long stroke Can-Am 250's, get them out of Sportsman (modern vintage) 250, even though they were period correct.

Beno Rodi bent the rules in Dinosaur 500 to get his ineligible Royal Enfield 500 approved. It was never raced in AMA competiton during it's current era.

I always ran legal bikes. But I got a bit of a chuckle when my older brother pushed a 1975 MX400B engine Shell Yamaha through tech for Modern 600 (sportsman). Cutoff was 74. He scalded everyone's ass for many events on that bike, and the tech guys never could quite figure it out, until they got smart enough to get engine numbers for all eligible machines.

They caught him with a 75 MX250B in a Champion at one event in Modern (sportsman) 250, 74 cutoff. Told him not to bring that bike back. He went through the trouble of putting the entire internals of the B into 74 cases, using the B cylinder and late model Honda CR250 reed cage.

Lo and behold, at the next event, what did we spy, but a 75 MX250B Champion, signed up in Modern 250, that had made it through tech. Piloted by a then current AMA Pro license holder. That was supposed to be a big no-no with AHRMA.

My brother had a huge hard on by that time for the whole organization, and promptly protested the bike and rider.

Illinois was a long way from Florida to try that trick. Needless to say, they upheld the protest, and the Illinois guy got to watch from the stands that night. Rules are rules , right ?

When the Ianucci / Jeff Smith bigger dick contest drained the benevolent fund, I think it soured a once great organization, many, including myself, vowing to never give AHRMA another damn dime.

Even the Road Racing segment, which made AHRMA more money than all other facets combined, is on life support. Small grids , class combining, and infighting are the norm.

Just google Triumph Thruxton / AHRMA series if you want some entertainment on equipment eligibility rules.
That topic alone sent one message board into history, due to all of the squabbling.

MaxPower
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8/6/2015 7:31pm
Loneatar,You explaining a little more helped me to understand what you were saying about the win thing and i agree with you.
I wish you were the Ahrma boss not Obama
Lonestar_399
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Dallas, TX, USA
8/6/2015 8:48pm
Mike P. wrote:
Lonestar_399, I get your point with the 78 Elsinore and AHRMA did the right thing because the 78 CR125 was basically the same bike as the...
Lonestar_399, I get your point with the 78 Elsinore and AHRMA did the right thing because the 78 CR125 was basically the same bike as the 77 & 76 before it. Honda dropped the ball there and AHRMA just corrected it, but that doesn't mean a rider couldn't have put 10" of travel on that bike, but truth be known, the bike was dated by 78 and Honda sold very few of them as the other manufactures had left this bike behind by then. I always liked the motor of the 76 CR and had one back in the day so for no particular reason I built one that looks like the one I rode back in the day but I built it with 10" of travel to race in Grand Prix, by choice. So if you use the year analogy, the bike was manufactured that year and just like in the late 70s, riders did all kinds of mods to their bikes and that was considered "in the spirit of competition" which is a saying right out of the AHRMA handbook, so I think its time for AHRMA to practice what they preach plain and simple. I remember seeing several 77 RMs with 10" of travel on the track back in the day (aftermarket). I didn't see many Honda because people didn't ride them all that much in 78. Here's a picture of mine primed and ready to Grand Prix competition






First off that is a beautiful bike and I think I've bugged you about several of the mods before.

This is purely discussion here as I might trigger a lightning rod of an opinion on my take on the Historic class travel rule. I, like you, would definitely prefer to run a cut-off year bike and that's why I have 1977 YZ's, RM's, and a 1978 CR125. The thing to take into consideration though is these classes are multi-year classes and a 1975 model RM125 might be on the gate with you. Most 1977 bikes had 9" of travel (9.25"?) and honestly who ran 10" travel bikes in 1975 except for maybe a works bike. The handling would be horrendous as those frames just were not designed for that much travel. The rule seems centered again on keeping the 1975 and 1976 model bikes competitive in this class and not to have them in the garage or the scrap yard. Funny, but I come back to that garage and scrap yard statement.

Personally, I don't think 9" vs 10" is a big deal. Most of us know on a vintage design track the extra travel is not an improvement from a handling perspective. I think if your bike is hovering in that 9.5" travel area nobody is going to go nuts on that. You can bumper out the shocks and adjust the forks down a 1/2" pretty easy. I would not get too bent out of shape on an inch of travel keeping me from racing a bad ass bike like that. If the class were only comprised of 1977 models like you would see in 1977 I seriously doubt a travel limit would be in place, but the class is just not 1977 (1978CR) bikes. That bike needs to be on a track, it's easy to get it there!
MXM
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pickstick, BD
8/6/2015 9:07pm Edited Date/Time 8/13/2015 8:54am
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Lonestar_399
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8/6/2015 9:32pm
Wow, how did you derive that for everybody? Cheat to win a trophy? Win no matter what it takes??? I can't speak to the Road and Dirt tracking scene that ProjectRacer refers to but motocross is not all about that.

I won't speak for Mike P but after back surgery and other old age issues I want as much quality suspension possible and that's what a cut-off year offers to us in the Historic class for sure. Everybody has their reasons and I'm not going to judge anyone for what bike they want to ride.

Most of the guys in vintage motocross racing don't care about a trophy, now some are complete freaks about them but the majority could care less. You should see how many trophies don't get claimed at some of these national races. The one thing I will say though is it's called racing and when most of us line up we all want to be as competitive as possible or otherwise we would just call it practice.

You seem to have a very myopic look on this sport. The 1983 KX125 is not banned either, that's kind of a false statement you keep focusing on. There is a class for that bike now it's just not the one you want it to be in.
MXM
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pickstick, BD
8/6/2015 9:44pm Edited Date/Time 8/13/2015 8:54am
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EatMyDust
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San Diego, CA, USA
8/6/2015 9:47pm
Just line up at the race with the 83 kx, have you tried ? Or do they make you go thru tech first?
Mike P.
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Chantilly, VA, USA
8/7/2015 4:43am
I'm with Lonestar, as it's about safety for me first. I am not a teenager anymore, and I have a job, family and responsibilities so that is why i want the best suspension, wider pegs, fat bars, etc…yet, I want to keep in the spirit of vintage racing, so while I may have all these newer parts on my bike, there is no mistaking my bike for a 76 CR…Besides, AHRMA usually modifies the tracks to avoid the bigger opstacles that vintage bikes are not designed for so again, I agree with Lonestar that an extra inch of suspension travel ain't gonna matter. I noticed ACR seems to have all these crazy classes where all kinds of bike are ran together (various years), and that format seems to work for them. I don't care what AHRMA does, but they need to do something because we are not getting any younger and if they want the next wave of riders moving into vintage racing (they were teens in the mid to late 80s) they'd better wisen up if AHRMA is to have a future, it's just that simple.
MaxPower
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8/7/2015 3:27pm
Mike, im thinking ACR has classes that include a wide range of bikes is that there arent enough entries to make a gate. If they broke the clases down to be fair there would be a bunch of one and two man gates.
MaxPower
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USA
8/10/2015 3:23pm
I found a few pics of my cylinder before i assembled the engine.
I had not realized the 83 cylinder was changed so much from the 82





riv187
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Lakeland, FL, USA
8/10/2015 4:23pm
Max Power,,Is your head same as mine ? Yours looks ported, who did it? I started with Eric Gorr to plate mine,,but wanted to mock it up and check deck heights/squish and test ride it stock. Then return it for porting with a game plan to get tight squish and best port heights..

MaxPower
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8/10/2015 6:06pm
I'll dig out a head to look. I have one or two extras. I wanted to have one cut for race fuel .
. Maybe it's just the KXs I've seen, but every cylinder had horrible castings in the ports. It looks ported but was left to stock dimensions. It runs really good but I think with a little jetting it would snap up on the pipe a little cleaner
riv187
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Lakeland, FL, USA
8/10/2015 6:17pm
I found some slag blocking one boost port and I can see there is core shift on intake make the one intake port wall a little lop sided. I did a little polishing myself and would like to straighten up intake. Back in the day I remember shaving the head .010-.020 on my original bike,and that really woke it up. I think .030 clearance is about ideal as long as there isn't too much piston rock and rod bearings good.

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