To Langstons point....

TailSoHard
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8/1/2015 7:28am
DPW wrote:
Yes I understand the lion wasn't sitting in front of the TV at night and rolling over on command, but I bet what you find at...
Yes I understand the lion wasn't sitting in front of the TV at night and rolling over on command, but I bet what you find at an animal sanctuary is animals right? So shortcut the whole "hunting" part and just go to where you know a lion is at... like hunting at the zoo..

The dentist I'm sure was sitting on top of some SUV nice and safe shooting the arrows.

Another example, lets say tourist from south Africa fly to the states for a thrilling bird "hunting" trip. They drive to the bald eagle sanctuary and lure an eagle out with some food and shoot it with a bow and arrow.....

To me it's not hunting..

About the old lady that almost took you out ...glad you're ok, now riding a motorcycle on the streets that takes some balls and skills.
Now shooting a bald eagle with a bow and arrow... THAT would be impressive lol

I guess the term "Animal Sanctuary" is still what I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around... I don't see any parallels between an "animal sanctuary" and a "zoo". Rather, I see them as complete opposites. There are no fences around a sanctuary. It's simply an area of land where humans are not allowed to hunt. The animals are free to roam wherever they desire, kill whatever they'd like to kill, and can leave whenever they want. So, if we compare that to a zoo, which is a defined/enclosed area where the animals are trapped, you can draw conclusions that say that a wild animal in an animal sanctuary would be more likely to kill you than one would in a zoo setting. Zoo animals get spoon-fed the same food everyday (by humans!) from the same spot and grow accustomed to having people around them all day, every day. Wild animals living in an animal sanctuary still hunts and kills a different life-form every day in order to stay alive. No medical staff, no trainers, relatively no humans at all...

Yes, most likely he had other people with him and could very well have been on top of a vehicle that would have given him a sense of security, but to say that it still wasn't dangerous is up for debate. Most times when you hunt predators like that, they won't let you hunt from the ground, because you WILL get killed. It's a liability thing. Most times hunters want to get as close to their prey as possible before killing it. That's what hunting is (for most hunters, at least. Yes, there are some sick mofo's out there that get off on killing, but not many): out-thinking, out-tracking, out-stealthing another living being. It's not about shooting and killing something. Just like riding a dirt bike isn't about arriving at your destination, it's about experiencing the ride along the way...

Keep in mind too: assuming that particular lion just walked right over and took the arrow without putting up a fuss is ridiculous. To assume that the hunt was easy is to assume that the lion was stupid. Which, in my mind, is equally as disrespectful as shooting one out of a zoo. There's a reason lions are at the top of the food chain. And it's not like they are the biggest baddest animals in Africa. There are other animals that can kill a lion. They're the top killers in the land because they're smarter than the others.

Don't get me wrong, I agree, it's sad, it's inhumane, and it's morally wrong. But it wasn't shooting fish in a barrel. To be honest, I don't like the fact that somebody from America is legally allowed to go kill something in another area of the world, but that's not my decision to make. I'm essentially playing devil's advocate on this one, simply to try and shut-up people who think they have "hunting" all figured out (especially the people who have never hunted before). Just for clarification, I used to be a hunter and I didn't like it. I don't like killing things. But somehow I still think that if compared hunting that lady that almost killed me vs. hunting a lion, I'd be safer hunting against that stupid c***. And yes, I would shoot her from roughly 500 yards and leave her on the ground for the coyotes. The circle of life, bitch lol
TailSoHard
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8/1/2015 7:33am
Chu wrote:
They should have a x games for hunters,pit them off against each other..thats what its about right?being last man standing.
I would pay a shit-ton of money to watch that lol
Brosho
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8/2/2015 12:16am
Bruce372 wrote:
What a scum bag !

Cecil the lion: US dentist blamed for Zimbabwe killing - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33695872
Titan1 wrote:
That just blows more holes in Langstons point...his hate and anger SHOULD be directed at poaching and poachers (which that dentist is-if you read the article)...not...
That just blows more holes in Langstons point...his hate and anger SHOULD be directed at poaching and poachers (which that dentist is-if you read the article)...not hunters.


(Of topic, slightly, but a friend of mine is hunting in South Africa right now...he's posting pictures of the animals he kills on facebook every day...paid out the nose for the opportunity-a portion of which goes toward conservation and management of endangered animals, the meat from the animals was donated to local people, he's spent a ton of money in the local economy, and tips his guides well. He's not shooting giraffes, or lions or elephants or rhino's...he wanted to, but there is such an incredibly small number of tags available for those animals that it wasn't worth the wait for him. I don't like hunting, and wouldn't spend my money that way...but I can see that it is helpful to the local economies, local poor people, and endangered animals there and does serve a valid purpose.)
Bullshit
What helps that economy most is all the Revenue they make from tourist paying to go on Safaris just to take pictures/photos of the Animals. What one sick fuck who want to just kill stuff for pleasure pay can not possibly compare to the amount of money thounsands of families pay to see the animals alive. Keep shooting the damn animals and soon non will be left for the Safari tourism.
Brosho
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8/2/2015 12:39am
NV825 wrote:
I have come to side with Langston on trophy/sport hunting. Here's my rationale: The main argument for that specific type of hunting is that the money...
I have come to side with Langston on trophy/sport hunting. Here's my rationale:

The main argument for that specific type of hunting is that the money goes towards the people, and the meat from the kill also goes to the people. That area of the world is corrupt as hell (not saying more developed countries aren't corrupt either), so I am willing to bet that money never sees "the local people."

I'm sure the meat does go to the locals, but here's another way to look at it. How about Joe Trophy Hunter spends $50,000 to buy bulk quantities of essential items like rice, water, seeds and gets it to the local people in need through a reputable humanitarian organization. He also brings along the best camera he can get for pictures of a magnificent lion up close, then goes home and gets his best photo put on a very expensive canvas to hang in his house.

No innocent animal has to die just so some rich guy can get a hard-on for shooting it from several hundred yards away. Let the natural process handle the animals, we should not be "expertly picking out" old males because they are going to die anyway.

As a note: I do not condone hunting for a way of getting meat to eat. If you are a deer hunter and spend the time to harvest every bit of meat off your kill, then more power to you. My point of view was strictly about people who pay good money to shoot an animal for the sole reason to put the head on a wall.
EXACTLY

There are just some sick fucks out there who get pleasure from killing stuff and enjoy trying to impress others by killing animals that never had a chance from thier high powered scopes and weapons.

The Shop

Titan1
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8/5/2015 12:02pm
Not to bring this up again...but this op-ed, from a Zimbabwean, speaks volumes about the sad state of American's and the uproar over the killing of Cecil the Lion...

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/opinion/in-zimbabwe-we-dont-cry-fo…

In Zimbabwe, We Don’t Cry for Lions

By GOODWELL NZOU
August 4, 2015

Winston-Salem, N.C. — MY mind was absorbed by the biochemistry of gene editing when the text messages and Facebook posts distracted me.

So sorry about Cecil.

Did Cecil live near your place in Zimbabwe?

Cecil who? I wondered. When I turned on the news and discovered that the messages were about a lion killed by an American dentist, the village boy inside me instinctively cheered: One lion fewer to menace families like mine.

My excitement was doused when I realized that the lion killer was being painted as the villain. I faced the starkest cultural contradiction I’d experienced during my five years studying in the United States.

Did all those Americans signing petitions understand that lions actually kill people? That all the talk about Cecil being “beloved” or a “local favorite” was media hype? Did Jimmy Kimmel choke up because Cecil was murdered or because he confused him with Simba from “The Lion King”?

In my village in Zimbabwe, surrounded by wildlife conservation areas, no lion has ever been beloved, or granted an affectionate nickname. They are objects of terror.

When I was 9 years old, a solitary lion prowled villages near my home. After it killed a few chickens, some goats and finally a cow, we were warned to walk to school in groups and stop playing outside. My sisters no longer went alone to the river to collect water or wash dishes; my mother waited for my father and older brothers, armed with machetes, axes and spears, to escort her into the bush to collect firewood.

A week later, my mother gathered me with nine of my siblings to explain that her uncle had been attacked but escaped with nothing more than an injured leg. The lion sucked the life out of the village: No one socialized by fires at night; no one dared stroll over to a neighbor’s homestead.

When the lion was finally killed, no one cared whether its murderer was a local person or a white trophy hunter, whether it was poached or killed legally. We danced and sang about the vanquishing of the fearsome beast and our escape from serious harm.

Recently, a 14-year-old boy in a village not far from mine wasn’t so lucky. Sleeping in his family’s fields, as villagers do to protect crops from the hippos, buffalo and elephants that trample them, he was mauled by a lion and died.

The killing of Cecil hasn’t garnered much more sympathy from urban Zimbabweans, although they live with no such danger. Few have ever seen a lion, since game drives are a luxury residents of a country with an average monthly income below $150 cannot afford.

Don’t misunderstand me: For Zimbabweans, wild animals have near-mystical significance. We belong to clans, and each clan claims an animal totem as its mythological ancestor. Mine is Nzou, elephant, and by tradition, I can’t eat elephant meat; it would be akin to eating a relative’s flesh. But our respect for these animals has never kept us from hunting them or allowing them to be hunted. (I’m familiar with dangerous animals; I lost my right leg to a snakebite when I was 11.)

The American tendency to romanticize animals that have been given actual names and to jump onto a hashtag train has turned an ordinary situation — there were 800 lions legally killed over a decade by well-heeled foreigners who shelled out serious money to prove their prowess — into what seems to my Zimbabwean eyes an absurdist circus.

PETA is calling for the hunter to be hanged. Zimbabwean politicians are accusing the United States of staging Cecil’s killing as a “ploy” to make our country look bad. And Americans who can’t find Zimbabwe on a map are applauding the nation’s demand for the extradition of the dentist, unaware that a baby elephant was reportedly slaughtered for our president’s most recent birthday banquet.

We Zimbabweans are left shaking our heads, wondering why Americans care more about African animals than about African people.

Don’t tell us what to do with our animals when you allowed your own mountain lions to be hunted to near extinction in the eastern United States. Don’t bemoan the clear-cutting of our forests when you turned yours into concrete jungles.

And please, don’t offer me condolences about Cecil unless you’re also willing to offer me condolences for villagers killed or left hungry by his brethren, by political violence, or by hunger.

Goodwell Nzou is a doctoral student in molecular and cellular biosciences at Wake Forest University.
Titan1
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8/5/2015 12:56pm


jamma10
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8/5/2015 3:41pm Edited Date/Time 8/5/2015 3:51pm
'We Zimbabweans are left shaking our heads, wondering why Americans care more about African animals than about African people.'

'And please, don’t offer me condolences about Cecil unless you’re also willing to offer me condolences for villagers killed or left hungry by his brethren, by political violence, or by hunger.'


I think this bloke may be overlooking the billions of dollars worth of aid America has been donating to African regions since the 1960's, along with setting up numerous Health Programs and clinics etc. I mean, its not as if America set up the biggest ever initiative to combat Aids & HIV in Africa or anything....

Why are Americans, or anyone else for that matter, not allowed to object to the pointless slaying of animals, particularly those almost certain to face extinction in the near future?
Titan1
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8/5/2015 3:55pm Edited Date/Time 8/5/2015 3:56pm
jamma10 wrote:
[i]'We Zimbabweans are left shaking our heads, wondering why Americans care more about African animals than about African people.' 'And please, don’t offer me condolences about...
'We Zimbabweans are left shaking our heads, wondering why Americans care more about African animals than about African people.'

'And please, don’t offer me condolences about Cecil unless you’re also willing to offer me condolences for villagers killed or left hungry by his brethren, by political violence, or by hunger.'


I think this bloke may be overlooking the billions of dollars worth of aid America has been donating to African regions since the 1960's, along with setting up numerous Health Programs and clinics etc. I mean, its not as if America set up the biggest ever initiative to combat Aids & HIV in Africa or anything....

Why are Americans, or anyone else for that matter, not allowed to object to the pointless slaying of animals, particularly those almost certain to face extinction in the near future?
Americans can object...but the outrage (protests, death threats, vandalism, etc.) over this lion makes them look like stupid spoil little brats...considering all the other vastly more significant issues facing the world.

It's a classic "first world problems" thing...We in the first world have our priorities so mixed up, and our heads so far up our butts that we don't recognize real issues when we see them. In the third world...those guys have real problems so they have bigger things to worry about than a stupid lion.

Further, American's, particularly urban Americans, have completely forgotten where animals rank in the grand scheme of things. Urban Americans think they are family, and somehow equal to people...we name them, put them in family photos, dress them up, let them live in our houses, ride in our cars, take them to doctors, paint their claws, brush their teeth, buy funeral plans for them and a whole bunch of other nonsense.

Rural Americans and even more so third world people, know where animals rightly rank in the world. They are tools and/or food, PERIOD. And are treated as such. Respected, yes, but never thought to be part of the family or even remotely equal to humans. EVER.

So the media tries to frame this lion as a "beloved" lion...as though the local people "love" him. This man plainly said that Africans don't love lions...they are scared of them and have no problem with them being killed. It was the American media, and spoiled American sheep that bought their line, that turned this into some type of local travesty. Zimbabwean's don't care about Cecil (they are glad he's dead)...but spoiled rotten American sheep with mixed up priorities are making death threats over it. Its ridiculous.
gsxrcr28
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8/5/2015 4:28pm
Killing or injuring animals you don't eat is for cowards. People are always going to point that out, with different levels of outrage. It is a good day when people get caught and arrested for injurying or killing a person, dog or any other animal.
Titan1
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8/5/2015 5:04pm Edited Date/Time 8/5/2015 5:40pm
gsxrcr28 wrote:
Killing or injuring animals you don't eat is for cowards. People are always going to point that out, with different levels of outrage. It is a...
Killing or injuring animals you don't eat is for cowards. People are always going to point that out, with different levels of outrage. It is a good day when people get caught and arrested for injurying or killing a person, dog or any other animal.
"Outrage"? Really? Over an animal? There should NEVER be any "outrage" over killing or injuring an animal for any reason. They aren't people...they aren't equal to people. They are animals. Think its wrong? Fine. Discourage your children from doing it? Sure. Not participating yourself. Of course. Consider it cowardly? Maybe so. A little sadness? okay, fine. But "outrage"??? Good grief there are far more important things to be "outraged" about in the world than killing an animal.

I look at trophy hunting the same way I look at smoking...Not something I'd ever do. Not something I'd want my kids to do...but I'm not going to protest, or petition governments to ban it, or vandalize smokers property, or picket over it, or villanize all smokers, or demean all smokers, or call smokers names or lose any sleep AT ALL over the fact that its legal.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with thinking trophy hunting is cowardly, or thinking its wrong, and then choosing not to participate...but its so shallow and stupid for spoiled rotten Americans to react the way they did over this Lion, when there are WAY more important issues in the world...it just makes us look like the spoiled rich kid, who threw a fit that the brand new BMW M3 he got for Christmas, was the wrong color. It's pathetic.
gsxrcr28
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8/5/2015 5:46pm
Titan1 wrote:
"Outrage"? Really? Over an animal? There should NEVER be any "outrage" over killing or injuring an animal for any reason. They aren't people...they aren't equal to...
"Outrage"? Really? Over an animal? There should NEVER be any "outrage" over killing or injuring an animal for any reason. They aren't people...they aren't equal to people. They are animals. Think its wrong? Fine. Discourage your children from doing it? Sure. Not participating yourself. Of course. Consider it cowardly? Maybe so. A little sadness? okay, fine. But "outrage"??? Good grief there are far more important things to be "outraged" about in the world than killing an animal.

I look at trophy hunting the same way I look at smoking...Not something I'd ever do. Not something I'd want my kids to do...but I'm not going to protest, or petition governments to ban it, or vandalize smokers property, or picket over it, or villanize all smokers, or demean all smokers, or call smokers names or lose any sleep AT ALL over the fact that its legal.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with thinking trophy hunting is cowardly, or thinking its wrong, and then choosing not to participate...but its so shallow and stupid for spoiled rotten Americans to react the way they did over this Lion, when there are WAY more important issues in the world...it just makes us look like the spoiled rich kid, who threw a fit that the brand new BMW M3 he got for Christmas, was the wrong color. It's pathetic.
I agree there are more important things for people to be outraged about, but that's out of anyone's control until they break the law.
As far as Americans looking like spoiled rich kids, I think you can ask most people from another country and they will say most Americans always look that way, and I think they would also agree with the defenders of Cecil.

To me most of the outrage seems to have died out, but I certainly don't get caught up in all of the media hype.
PalerBlue
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8/6/2015 1:36am
Titan1 wrote:
"Outrage"? Really? Over an animal? There should NEVER be any "outrage" over killing or injuring an animal for any reason. They aren't people...they aren't equal to...
"Outrage"? Really? Over an animal? There should NEVER be any "outrage" over killing or injuring an animal for any reason. They aren't people...they aren't equal to people. They are animals. Think its wrong? Fine. Discourage your children from doing it? Sure. Not participating yourself. Of course. Consider it cowardly? Maybe so. A little sadness? okay, fine. But "outrage"??? Good grief there are far more important things to be "outraged" about in the world than killing an animal.

I look at trophy hunting the same way I look at smoking...Not something I'd ever do. Not something I'd want my kids to do...but I'm not going to protest, or petition governments to ban it, or vandalize smokers property, or picket over it, or villanize all smokers, or demean all smokers, or call smokers names or lose any sleep AT ALL over the fact that its legal.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with thinking trophy hunting is cowardly, or thinking its wrong, and then choosing not to participate...but its so shallow and stupid for spoiled rotten Americans to react the way they did over this Lion, when there are WAY more important issues in the world...it just makes us look like the spoiled rich kid, who threw a fit that the brand new BMW M3 he got for Christmas, was the wrong color. It's pathetic.
Wow Titan, way to dig when you're in a hole!

"There should NEVER be any "outrage" over killing or injuring an animal for any reason"

Such a sweeping and crazy statement given that it's a know fact that most people who mistreat animals will do the same thing to their children.

So Titan, in the picture, no big deal to you?



Spydee
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8/6/2015 2:20am
Chu wrote:
They should have a x games for hunters,pit them off against each other..thats what its about right?being last man standing.
IWreckALot
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8/6/2015 5:37am
PalerBlue wrote:
Wow Titan, way to dig when you're in a hole! "There should NEVER be any "outrage" over killing or injuring an animal for any reason" Such...
Wow Titan, way to dig when you're in a hole!

"There should NEVER be any "outrage" over killing or injuring an animal for any reason"

Such a sweeping and crazy statement given that it's a know fact that most people who mistreat animals will do the same thing to their children.

So Titan, in the picture, no big deal to you?



I think you might have missed this part in Titan's post above. . .

"They are tools and/or food, PERIOD. And are treated as such. Respected, yes, but never thought to be part of the family or even remotely equal to humans. EVER. "

That picture doesn't show any respect. . . That's not treating an animal as a tool or food. That's evil and torture for no reason. You're vastly misinterpreting what Titan is saying. . . Not surprising.
Titan1
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8/6/2015 6:23am
PalerBlue wrote:
Wow Titan, way to dig when you're in a hole! "There should NEVER be any "outrage" over killing or injuring an animal for any reason" Such...
Wow Titan, way to dig when you're in a hole!

"There should NEVER be any "outrage" over killing or injuring an animal for any reason"

Such a sweeping and crazy statement given that it's a know fact that most people who mistreat animals will do the same thing to their children.

So Titan, in the picture, no big deal to you?



IWreckALot wrote:
I think you might have missed this part in Titan's post above. . . "They are tools and/or food, PERIOD. And are treated as such. Respected...
I think you might have missed this part in Titan's post above. . .

"They are tools and/or food, PERIOD. And are treated as such. Respected, yes, but never thought to be part of the family or even remotely equal to humans. EVER. "

That picture doesn't show any respect. . . That's not treating an animal as a tool or food. That's evil and torture for no reason. You're vastly misinterpreting what Titan is saying. . . Not surprising.
Thank you. Torture is entirely different from what I was talking about.
PalerBlue
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8/6/2015 10:29am Edited Date/Time 8/6/2015 10:32am
IWreckALot wrote:
I think you might have missed this part in Titan's post above. . . "They are tools and/or food, PERIOD. And are treated as such. Respected...
I think you might have missed this part in Titan's post above. . .

"They are tools and/or food, PERIOD. And are treated as such. Respected, yes, but never thought to be part of the family or even remotely equal to humans. EVER. "

That picture doesn't show any respect. . . That's not treating an animal as a tool or food. That's evil and torture for no reason. You're vastly misinterpreting what Titan is saying. . . Not surprising.
No, I haven't missed his point, you don't realise what you're looking at. That dog was a racing greyhound and no longer required, so the owner had just tied it up (while standing) and simply left it. A 'tool' discarded when no longer useful.
TailSoHard
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8/6/2015 11:35am Edited Date/Time 8/6/2015 11:36am
PalerBlue wrote:
No, I haven't missed his point, you don't realise what you're looking at. That dog was a racing greyhound and no longer required, so the owner...
No, I haven't missed his point, you don't realise what you're looking at. That dog was a racing greyhound and no longer required, so the owner had just tied it up (while standing) and simply left it. A 'tool' discarded when no longer useful.
So, what's your point? We all know what that photo is. We're not stupid. You've posted a photo of a torture victim, but haven't made any progress towards convincing someone of your side of the argument. All we can conclude from your comment is that yes, someone tied up a dog and it died. It's very sad and quite disturbing. Congratulations. So... what does this have to do with someone illegally hunting and killing a lion?

That's like posting photos of the Holocaust and saying "See, it's bad when people die." You're technically not wrong, but you're not right either. You're moving laterally in our vertically stacked argument.

You may want to come up with an argument, gather some facts, structure it in an organized manner, end with a conclusion, and then support it with personal experience. Only then can we start to have a meaningful discussion about the topic. Simply posting photos and going "Well, what about THIS shit?" doesn't do anything to further discussion on the matter at hand...


TailSoHard
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8/6/2015 11:38am
And I don't mean to sound condescending; I am legitimately interested in this topic and do take pleasure in hearing other people's take on the issue.
APLMAN99
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8/6/2015 1:24pm
PalerBlue wrote:
Wow Titan, way to dig when you're in a hole! "There should NEVER be any "outrage" over killing or injuring an animal for any reason" Such...
Wow Titan, way to dig when you're in a hole!

"There should NEVER be any "outrage" over killing or injuring an animal for any reason"

Such a sweeping and crazy statement given that it's a know fact that most people who mistreat animals will do the same thing to their children.

So Titan, in the picture, no big deal to you?



IWreckALot wrote:
I think you might have missed this part in Titan's post above. . . "They are tools and/or food, PERIOD. And are treated as such. Respected...
I think you might have missed this part in Titan's post above. . .

"They are tools and/or food, PERIOD. And are treated as such. Respected, yes, but never thought to be part of the family or even remotely equal to humans. EVER. "

That picture doesn't show any respect. . . That's not treating an animal as a tool or food. That's evil and torture for no reason. You're vastly misinterpreting what Titan is saying. . . Not surprising.
I can't believe that even Titan fully believes what he posted. Animals as tools or food only? Not quite.

Let's just say that someone uses your driveway to turn around in and runs over your rake. You probably aren't going to comfort your children on the loss of that yard rake, or be extremely upset if the person doesn't even stop to check on the well being of that rake.

If they were to run over your family dog in your driveway instead, things change drastically.
Titan1
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8/6/2015 2:42pm
PalerBlue wrote:
Wow Titan, way to dig when you're in a hole! "There should NEVER be any "outrage" over killing or injuring an animal for any reason" Such...
Wow Titan, way to dig when you're in a hole!

"There should NEVER be any "outrage" over killing or injuring an animal for any reason"

Such a sweeping and crazy statement given that it's a know fact that most people who mistreat animals will do the same thing to their children.

So Titan, in the picture, no big deal to you?



IWreckALot wrote:
I think you might have missed this part in Titan's post above. . . "They are tools and/or food, PERIOD. And are treated as such. Respected...
I think you might have missed this part in Titan's post above. . .

"They are tools and/or food, PERIOD. And are treated as such. Respected, yes, but never thought to be part of the family or even remotely equal to humans. EVER. "

That picture doesn't show any respect. . . That's not treating an animal as a tool or food. That's evil and torture for no reason. You're vastly misinterpreting what Titan is saying. . . Not surprising.
APLMAN99 wrote:
I can't believe that even Titan fully believes what he posted. Animals as tools or food only? Not quite. Let's just say that someone uses your...
I can't believe that even Titan fully believes what he posted. Animals as tools or food only? Not quite.

Let's just say that someone uses your driveway to turn around in and runs over your rake. You probably aren't going to comfort your children on the loss of that yard rake, or be extremely upset if the person doesn't even stop to check on the well being of that rake.

If they were to run over your family dog in your driveway instead, things change drastically.
I grew up on a farm, animals are food and tools (which they were always considered up until the modern age when food comes from a grocery store or restaurant rather than the field and the forest). They aren't kept for companionship...is a cattle dog also a companion? Sure, it can be, but that is always subordinate to its primary use as a tool to move cattle or as a guard dog.

I learned some very difficult-but much needed, and very healthy-lessons as a boy, growing up on a farm. My family had a dog, that I really liked. The number one rule on the ranch, is that dogs don't chase the horses. My dog got out one day, and was spotted by my uncle (who lived up the road) chasing the horses in the pasture...he shot my dog. Was I sad? Sure....But I got over it, and we moved on with our life and got another cattle dog. We didn't have a funeral, or have a huge family feud with my uncle or yell at him. It's a dog. Not a child.

We raised pigs and calves from babies (bottle fed them), got plenty attached to them. Then watched them get shot in the forehead, tied from their back legs and held upside-down from the front end loader, skinned, butchered and then we ate them.

Animals are respected, and cared for (they have to be when they are your source of sustenance), they are never abused (I got whooped with a belt one time because my grandfather saw me throwing rocks at one of his cows), and even "loved" to a certain extent. But they are not thought to be equal to humans.

Hunting for food. Rising your food. Killing predators to protect livestock. Using animals to make a living (for survival anciently, and to pay the bills in modern times). The way humans have done it since the beginning of humans...keeps animals in their proper place in society.

Multi-generational City people (the longer people live an urban lifestyle the worse it gets...I've been living in a "city" for 15 years and I'm already seeing my perspectives change-I don't even like to hunt any more) have NONE of those experiences and as a result, in my opinion, they develop a convoluted and unhealthy perspective on the role animals play in our society. And they assume they are equal to people. So they get "outraged" when a lion gets shot, and make death threats to trophy hunters (when there are far more important things to worry about int he world).

I look at that picture of the dog, and I think that's sad and unfortunate and move on with my life. I don't get outraged. I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that because he'll tie up a dog and leave it to starve, he'd do the same to one of his children, I'm not going start an online petition to ban greyhound racing. I'm not going to vandalize the dog owners property. or petition government for more laws. I'm not going to picket their business, or make death threats. And hope they rot in prison. Its just a dog. It's not a human. I don't support it, I don't encourage it. I'd NEVER treat an animal that way. Animals deserve respect. But I won't call for the guy that did its head, either.
newmann
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Location
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8/6/2015 4:42pm
I was considering killing a big cat several years back. After Hurricane Ike hit and flooded a lot of low areas around Louisiana, some of the animals had to move on. We ended up with a mountain lion making the rounds by my house. Drove our dogs crazy to the point they found a way out of our fenced in yard and went after it. The sheltie first, got tore up pretty bad but got away with a few trips to the vet and some stitches. Must have pissed the lab off pretty bad that her brother got his ass kicked so a few weeks later it was her turn. She barely made it out alive, ended up with drain tubes in her neck and almost lost her tail. She was screwed up good. Couple months later we come home from work and can't find the sheltie. He had gotten out again to go for round two. We found him hiding on the front porch barely alive. Died a couple days later. Quite a few pets went missing or got tore up throughout the area over a several month period.










APLMAN99
Posts
12147
Joined
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Location
Tualatin, OR US
Fantasy
8/6/2015 4:43pm
IWreckALot wrote:
I think you might have missed this part in Titan's post above. . . "They are tools and/or food, PERIOD. And are treated as such. Respected...
I think you might have missed this part in Titan's post above. . .

"They are tools and/or food, PERIOD. And are treated as such. Respected, yes, but never thought to be part of the family or even remotely equal to humans. EVER. "

That picture doesn't show any respect. . . That's not treating an animal as a tool or food. That's evil and torture for no reason. You're vastly misinterpreting what Titan is saying. . . Not surprising.
APLMAN99 wrote:
I can't believe that even Titan fully believes what he posted. Animals as tools or food only? Not quite. Let's just say that someone uses your...
I can't believe that even Titan fully believes what he posted. Animals as tools or food only? Not quite.

Let's just say that someone uses your driveway to turn around in and runs over your rake. You probably aren't going to comfort your children on the loss of that yard rake, or be extremely upset if the person doesn't even stop to check on the well being of that rake.

If they were to run over your family dog in your driveway instead, things change drastically.
Titan1 wrote:
I grew up on a farm, animals are food and tools (which they were always considered up until the modern age when food comes from a...
I grew up on a farm, animals are food and tools (which they were always considered up until the modern age when food comes from a grocery store or restaurant rather than the field and the forest). They aren't kept for companionship...is a cattle dog also a companion? Sure, it can be, but that is always subordinate to its primary use as a tool to move cattle or as a guard dog.

I learned some very difficult-but much needed, and very healthy-lessons as a boy, growing up on a farm. My family had a dog, that I really liked. The number one rule on the ranch, is that dogs don't chase the horses. My dog got out one day, and was spotted by my uncle (who lived up the road) chasing the horses in the pasture...he shot my dog. Was I sad? Sure....But I got over it, and we moved on with our life and got another cattle dog. We didn't have a funeral, or have a huge family feud with my uncle or yell at him. It's a dog. Not a child.

We raised pigs and calves from babies (bottle fed them), got plenty attached to them. Then watched them get shot in the forehead, tied from their back legs and held upside-down from the front end loader, skinned, butchered and then we ate them.

Animals are respected, and cared for (they have to be when they are your source of sustenance), they are never abused (I got whooped with a belt one time because my grandfather saw me throwing rocks at one of his cows), and even "loved" to a certain extent. But they are not thought to be equal to humans.

Hunting for food. Rising your food. Killing predators to protect livestock. Using animals to make a living (for survival anciently, and to pay the bills in modern times). The way humans have done it since the beginning of humans...keeps animals in their proper place in society.

Multi-generational City people (the longer people live an urban lifestyle the worse it gets...I've been living in a "city" for 15 years and I'm already seeing my perspectives change-I don't even like to hunt any more) have NONE of those experiences and as a result, in my opinion, they develop a convoluted and unhealthy perspective on the role animals play in our society. And they assume they are equal to people. So they get "outraged" when a lion gets shot, and make death threats to trophy hunters (when there are far more important things to worry about int he world).

I look at that picture of the dog, and I think that's sad and unfortunate and move on with my life. I don't get outraged. I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that because he'll tie up a dog and leave it to starve, he'd do the same to one of his children, I'm not going start an online petition to ban greyhound racing. I'm not going to vandalize the dog owners property. or petition government for more laws. I'm not going to picket their business, or make death threats. And hope they rot in prison. Its just a dog. It's not a human. I don't support it, I don't encourage it. I'd NEVER treat an animal that way. Animals deserve respect. But I won't call for the guy that did its head, either.
I grew up on a farm also, but the notion that animals are simply food or tools was foreign to us. Animals were never on the same level as a simple tool, and most who've been around them for a long time probably know that. Are they humans? No. But they aren't the same as a shovel, or a rake.

How people treat animals has been used as a useful piece of evidence when exploring psychopathic tendencies.........
Titan1
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Location
Lehi, UT US
8/6/2015 5:11pm Edited Date/Time 8/6/2015 5:12pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
I grew up on a farm also, but the notion that animals are simply food or tools was foreign to us. Animals were never on the...
I grew up on a farm also, but the notion that animals are simply food or tools was foreign to us. Animals were never on the same level as a simple tool, and most who've been around them for a long time probably know that. Are they humans? No. But they aren't the same as a shovel, or a rake.

How people treat animals has been used as a useful piece of evidence when exploring psychopathic tendencies.........
So you acknowledge that they aren't equal to humans...we agree on that. Great. That's my point.

And after reading that post do you really think I'm saying animals are the same as a rake or shovel? Come on...

"Animals are respected, and cared for...they are never abused...and even "loved" to a certain extent. But they are not thought to be equal to humans."

" I'd NEVER treat an animal that way. Animals deserve respect."

When was the last time you had respect for a rake or shovel or "loved" a rake or shovel, and felt a shovel deserved respect? Animals aren't inanimate objects...but they are still tools.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue opinion with you. (And really that's all this is. My opinion.)

APLMAN99
Posts
12147
Joined
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Location
Tualatin, OR US
Fantasy
8/6/2015 8:33pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
I grew up on a farm also, but the notion that animals are simply food or tools was foreign to us. Animals were never on the...
I grew up on a farm also, but the notion that animals are simply food or tools was foreign to us. Animals were never on the same level as a simple tool, and most who've been around them for a long time probably know that. Are they humans? No. But they aren't the same as a shovel, or a rake.

How people treat animals has been used as a useful piece of evidence when exploring psychopathic tendencies.........
Titan1 wrote:
So you acknowledge that they aren't equal to humans...we agree on that. Great. That's my point. And after reading that post do you really think I'm...
So you acknowledge that they aren't equal to humans...we agree on that. Great. That's my point.

And after reading that post do you really think I'm saying animals are the same as a rake or shovel? Come on...

"Animals are respected, and cared for...they are never abused...and even "loved" to a certain extent. But they are not thought to be equal to humans."

" I'd NEVER treat an animal that way. Animals deserve respect."

When was the last time you had respect for a rake or shovel or "loved" a rake or shovel, and felt a shovel deserved respect? Animals aren't inanimate objects...but they are still tools.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue opinion with you. (And really that's all this is. My opinion.)

Equal to humans? Have I ever even come close to saying that? Nope......

You've said animals are either food or a tool. Obviously that was silly, or you wouldn't have considered that picture of the emaciated dog as torture.
MX558
Posts
1961
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
8/7/2015 7:51pm
I myself would love to hunt some poachers .
CR250Rider
Posts
6706
Joined
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Location
Moses Lake, WA US
8/7/2015 9:41pm
I ask again, Is FISHING morally wrong to you Langston-esque city folks?
Couldn't it be proven to be much more traumatic to the fish than a bullet to the head like during a hunt?
Even plants communicate with each other.

put your money where your mouth is and buy up all the hunting permits..... or stfu
newmann
Posts
24438
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Location
US
8/8/2015 5:41am
CR250Rider wrote:
I ask again, Is FISHING morally wrong to you Langston-esque city folks? Couldn't it be proven to be much more traumatic to the fish than a...
I ask again, Is FISHING morally wrong to you Langston-esque city folks?
Couldn't it be proven to be much more traumatic to the fish than a bullet to the head like during a hunt?
Even plants communicate with each other.

put your money where your mouth is and buy up all the hunting permits..... or stfu
You expect them to spend THEIR money for their cause?Laughing Laughing Laughing
8/8/2015 7:40am
CR250Rider wrote:
I ask again, Is FISHING morally wrong to you Langston-esque city folks? Couldn't it be proven to be much more traumatic to the fish than a...
I ask again, Is FISHING morally wrong to you Langston-esque city folks?
Couldn't it be proven to be much more traumatic to the fish than a bullet to the head like during a hunt?
Even plants communicate with each other.

put your money where your mouth is and buy up all the hunting permits..... or stfu
newmann wrote:
You expect them to spend THEIR money for their cause?Laughing Laughing Laughing
Laughing
yea, and i can almost guarantee you theres not one damb veegan here in this thread either!

serve em a good steak and they enjoy the shit out of it but wanna wish harm to those who collected it for them!
seems logicalHuh
newmann
Posts
24438
Joined
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Location
US
8/8/2015 9:23am
Yes and as long as everything is made in China there is no pollution. Bad hunters and bad manufacturing running rampant here in the US.
dirtnapper
Posts
5454
Joined
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Location
Alberta CA
8/14/2015 9:11pm
TailSoHard wrote:
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around why this is such a big deal to everyone. Animals get killed every day. Some humanely, some not...
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around why this is such a big deal to everyone. Animals get killed every day. Some humanely, some not so much. Now suddenly it's "cool" to be outraged at this particular hunt. If you really wanna be pissed off, look up the video of the dudes blowing up 14-15 hogs by shooting a propane tank from 500 yards away. Or the guys that hunt out of helicopters with automatic assault rifles. This guy going to Africa and shooting a lion with a bow and arrow (which takes a SHITLOAD of balls AND skill) is not, by any means, the worst atrocity committed by "hunters". Just cause this particular lion is "cute" or whatever, doesn't mean that he wouldn't have pulled your intestines out of your ass given the opportunity.

Seriously, there are way too many people going through divorces, getting cancer, dealing with addictions, starving, going broke, murdering OTHER PEOPLE and all we seem to want to talk about is Simba getting shot. Awww, the poor widdle kitty kat. Boo fucking hoo. If you really want to make a difference, start by getting off your phone, running over all your electronic devices with a steamroller, call your mother and tell her you love her, then WALK your ass down to the local homeless shelter and start scooping chili into bowls for hobos.

We need to start becoming more aware of what's going on immediately around us (I'm talking like within a 100-yard radius) before we concern ourselves with shit happening in an empty field in Africa. People die everyday from texting-related incidents, or let their babies fall down stairs, or back their cars into light poles. Yet somehow people think the people with guns are the problem... If you think that it's a more "natural" action for a person to sit at a computer screen arguing with someone across the country about killing a lion than it is to actually go out and hunt an animal yourself, then you're pathetically ignorant. Humans are animals designed and evolved to hunt (hence our eyes located on the front of our skulls instead of the sides, or our canine teeth designed for ripping flesh, our thumbs, or our ability to see FUCKING COLORS?!?!), not robots to be programmed to believe and regurgitate facts.

Go outside and find something to kill and eat; if you don't like it, you don't ever have to do it again, I promise.

(sorry for the rant, some lady almost killed me this morning on my motorcycle so I'm a little cranky today... Angry )
Ho-lee shit!!

This post. This post right here!!Smile

Well said, man - well said!

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