SX is not MX

peelout
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4/15/2015 2:30pm
sorry to burst your bubble, but SX is the more popular younger brother of MX.

i like MX better too, but i'm not blind to the fact that it is in fact a form of MX.
The Rock
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4/15/2015 2:44pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2015 10:11pm
peelout wrote:
sorry to burst your bubble, but SX is the more popular younger brother of MX. i like MX better too, but i'm not blind to the...
sorry to burst your bubble, but SX is the more popular younger brother of MX.

i like MX better too, but i'm not blind to the fact that it is in fact a form of MX.
More popular with who? People under 30 perhaps but to the older crowd some of us prefer MX. Doesn't mean one is better than the other as it is more of personal choice.

To your last sentence I agree but NEVER want MX to be a form of SX but unfortunately this is where we are in here in the US. I hope we can reverse this trend before our sport gets even smaller due to injury component associated with outdoor SX tracks.
seth505
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4/15/2015 2:59pm
When you start these threads, why not just make the title clear with "I hate jumps"? Cool
GuyB
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4/15/2015 3:43pm
Since we're doing some Captain Obvious stuff, I want to play, too.

MX is what the general population does. Supercross is what the pros do.

You can tune out during the Supercross season, and do something productive. Like going riding.

You can also choose whether to support tracks that look like outdoor supercross tracks...or not.

I chuckle when people say that National tracks feature natural terrain. Pick your favorite feature on nearly any National track (Mt. St. Helen excluded), and it's probably been manipulated in some way.

Stop insinuating Supercross has anything to do with motocross? Okay. I'll be sure to tell that to the bike, gear, tire, and aftermarket manufacturers know. They'll laugh, too.

The Shop

Titan1
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4/15/2015 3:48pm
aaryn #234 wrote:
Is Motocross closer to something like GNCC / WORCS series or does it more resemble SX Say in a complete fantasy world (we are here to...
Is Motocross closer to something like GNCC / WORCS series or does it more resemble SX

Say in a complete fantasy world (we are here to bench race I guess) Would Dungey and co run up front in the GNCC it they spent as much time preparing for it as the currently do for SX.

Instead of racing SX and MX, turn their attention and race GNCC and MX.

Obviously this would never happen, there is a reason SX is the most popular of all the Off-Road Dirt Bike disciplines. Joe average sports fan can sit in a nice venue with all the amenities they need with in a few steps, along with all the on track excitement right in front of them.

But back to my question, screw the OP's topic, could Dungey start winning GNCC races if he spent say 6 months getting ready.
ATKpilot99 wrote:
Sure he could . Retired MXers win GNCCs.
The best of the best-with a few exceptions-gravitate toward MX/SX because that is where all the money and fame is. So if any of top factory SX/MX riders were to focus that same attention on GNCC's or WORC's or National Enduro or Hare and Hound...they'd be able to win those titles, because they are the best riders in the world.

I said "top factory mx/sx" riders...in the past you'd have retired MXer's winning the GNCC's (Ryan Hughes won a WORC's title, I think...Doug Henry won a GNCC or two I think)...but not any more. Look how Ryan Sipes is doing? If the top Factory MX'ers focused on it...they'd win. Those guys that are racing the off road series haul! And any MXer-except the elite (Dungey, Roczen, Tomac, Canard, etc.) would have a hard time winning races.

GNCC"s now days are like two hour moto's...full on sprints. Kailub Russell is a bad bad dude.
The Rock
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4/15/2015 3:49pm
The reason is I don't hate jumps. I do believe less is more however when it comes to jumps on outdoor MX tracks. The saturation of jumps on courses today is why IMO we have people who can clear doubles and triples but can't handle an off camber or deep rutted corners to save their lives.
The Rock
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4/15/2015 4:06pm Edited Date/Time 4/15/2015 4:12pm
GuyB wrote:
Since we're doing some Captain Obvious stuff, I want to play, too. MX is what the general population does. Supercross is what the pros do. You...
Since we're doing some Captain Obvious stuff, I want to play, too.

MX is what the general population does. Supercross is what the pros do.

You can tune out during the Supercross season, and do something productive. Like going riding.

You can also choose whether to support tracks that look like outdoor supercross tracks...or not.

I chuckle when people say that National tracks feature natural terrain. Pick your favorite feature on nearly any National track (Mt. St. Helen excluded), and it's probably been manipulated in some way.

Stop insinuating Supercross has anything to do with motocross? Okay. I'll be sure to tell that to the bike, gear, tire, and aftermarket manufacturers know. They'll laugh, too.
Guess you missed my reply:




Excellent replies and I blew it saying one had nothing to do with the other without providing more background.

I was attempting to make a philosophical point regarding the two disciplines. I was reacting to comments in another thread and had to blow off some steam before my head exploded.


Unfortunately in a forum where personal comments (the one about my mom being different is a new low) and sarcasm rule often it might be too much of a stretch though to have a philosophical discussion about the differences between MX and SX. I hope not.

bigborefan
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4/15/2015 6:07pm
Dungey would do just fine at a GNCC. No way it takes him 2 years to get up to speed. I say 2 months. GNCCs are pretty open and fast. They're nice and rough. Dungeys smooth technique would work just fine.

And yes, SX is not MX. it's the circus sideshow. And Endurocross isn't Enduro either.
peelout
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4/16/2015 2:22pm
public parks should be toned down while we're at it

The Rock
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4/16/2015 2:30pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2015 2:33pm
I initially was chapped to get more sarcasm but this time from somebody I respect. However after seeing the clip DAMN THAT'S FUNNY.

If you have the time in the near future I would love to hear your opinion on how you feel about MX today in the 21st century. I am most interested in learning if you think there should be a fundamental difference between the two or if you are fine with the hybridization of SX/MX that exists on so many amateur tracks.

To be clear this issue doesn't affect me one iota one way or the other as my income isn't dependent on how many people continue to race amateur motocross. I am passionate about it however due to my love of the sport and my OPINION (not fact) where we are today with tracks is in fact a key component on why injuries (and the severity of them) are getting more light these days.

DISCLAIMER: NO ONE IS TRYING TO MAKE MX SAFE BUT IT CAN BE MADE SAFER To do so will require I believe for people chime in on the subject with more than troll comments.
peelout
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4/16/2015 2:52pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2015 2:53pm
hah, i came across the gif and instantly thought of this thread.

i might be the wrong person to ask. i grew up racing moto and was always a big fan of jumps, the bigger the better. i was always one of the first to jump the big-new jump at the tracks/races. however, now that i don't race any more (or even ride moto tracks for that matter) it doesn't seem to bother me one way or the other. i see both sides of the argument.

i have been to Washougal, Glen-Helen, Lakewood, and Tooele... all are different and none are outdoor supercross. sure some have more jumps than others, but even the Tooele track which everyone calls outdoor SX is extremely far from supercross.

local tracks could use less jumps if that's what's hurting people... i personally put more blame on the bikes that Joe Blow can purchase and jump on. when i was racing, the lesser classes didn't jump the big jumps because they lacked the ability to make even a modified 250 jump the big jumps. now, anyone can grab a 450 throttle and throw down on a 100 foot triple.
GuyB
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4/16/2015 2:58pm
peelout wrote:
hah, i came across the gif and instantly thought of this thread. i might be the wrong person to ask. i grew up racing moto and...
hah, i came across the gif and instantly thought of this thread.

i might be the wrong person to ask. i grew up racing moto and was always a big fan of jumps, the bigger the better. i was always one of the first to jump the big-new jump at the tracks/races. however, now that i don't race any more (or even ride moto tracks for that matter) it doesn't seem to bother me one way or the other. i see both sides of the argument.

i have been to Washougal, Glen-Helen, Lakewood, and Tooele... all are different and none are outdoor supercross. sure some have more jumps than others, but even the Tooele track which everyone calls outdoor SX is extremely far from supercross.

local tracks could use less jumps if that's what's hurting people... i personally put more blame on the bikes that Joe Blow can purchase and jump on. when i was racing, the lesser classes didn't jump the big jumps because they lacked the ability to make even a modified 250 jump the big jumps. now, anyone can grab a 450 throttle and throw down on a 100 foot triple.
You know why people go for ridiculously big jumps these days? It's because they can. Roll on the throttle, and go for it.

Back in the day, you'd worry about the frame. Or the wheels. Or the pegs breaking off.

Sure the suspension back in his day was absolute junk, but do you know how far Evel Knievel's longest successful jump was?

141 feet. That's a pretty good-sized outdoor jump these days. But I do think people will take that on (or much larger) without a ton of thought into what the consequences might be if they miss.

Oh, and I don't see jumps that big in Supercross.
keinz
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4/16/2015 3:03pm
And SX is the same as MX
seth505
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4/16/2015 3:09pm
peelout wrote:
hah, i came across the gif and instantly thought of this thread. i might be the wrong person to ask. i grew up racing moto and...
hah, i came across the gif and instantly thought of this thread.

i might be the wrong person to ask. i grew up racing moto and was always a big fan of jumps, the bigger the better. i was always one of the first to jump the big-new jump at the tracks/races. however, now that i don't race any more (or even ride moto tracks for that matter) it doesn't seem to bother me one way or the other. i see both sides of the argument.

i have been to Washougal, Glen-Helen, Lakewood, and Tooele... all are different and none are outdoor supercross. sure some have more jumps than others, but even the Tooele track which everyone calls outdoor SX is extremely far from supercross.

local tracks could use less jumps if that's what's hurting people... i personally put more blame on the bikes that Joe Blow can purchase and jump on. when i was racing, the lesser classes didn't jump the big jumps because they lacked the ability to make even a modified 250 jump the big jumps. now, anyone can grab a 450 throttle and throw down on a 100 foot triple.
GuyB wrote:
You know why people go for ridiculously big jumps these days? It's because they can. Roll on the throttle, and go for it. Back in the...
You know why people go for ridiculously big jumps these days? It's because they can. Roll on the throttle, and go for it.

Back in the day, you'd worry about the frame. Or the wheels. Or the pegs breaking off.

Sure the suspension back in his day was absolute junk, but do you know how far Evel Knievel's longest successful jump was?

141 feet. That's a pretty good-sized outdoor jump these days. But I do think people will take that on (or much larger) without a ton of thought into what the consequences might be if they miss.

Oh, and I don't see jumps that big in Supercross.
Exactly.

I cased a 100 ft uphill triple last weekend and flipped over my bike. While flipping in the air I had the thought that I might break my back when it all ended. I got extremely lucky but guess what, it was my fault for fucking up and trying to link a double/table together when I haven't been riding much in months. Definitely not the tracks fault.

O and for you neck brace haters, I was able to tuck in the air and finish rotating my body so I didn't land with my arms out and break them, with a neck brace on. haha Grinning
peelout
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4/16/2015 3:18pm
seth505 wrote:
Exactly. I cased a 100 ft uphill triple last weekend and flipped over my bike. While flipping in the air I had the thought that I...
Exactly.

I cased a 100 ft uphill triple last weekend and flipped over my bike. While flipping in the air I had the thought that I might break my back when it all ended. I got extremely lucky but guess what, it was my fault for fucking up and trying to link a double/table together when I haven't been riding much in months. Definitely not the tracks fault.

O and for you neck brace haters, I was able to tuck in the air and finish rotating my body so I didn't land with my arms out and break them, with a neck brace on. haha Grinning
you must have unlocked the hips in the air bro, impressive feat considering you were wearing a bear-trap around your neck

Wink
seth505
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4/16/2015 3:24pm
peelout wrote:
you must have unlocked the hips in the air bro, impressive feat considering you were wearing a bear-trap around your neck

Wink
Go ahead and laugh at my pain, for the bros!

https://youtu.be/ceZ0QoayI-w
The Rock
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4/16/2015 4:40pm
seth505 wrote:
Exactly. I cased a 100 ft uphill triple last weekend and flipped over my bike. While flipping in the air I had the thought that I...
Exactly.

I cased a 100 ft uphill triple last weekend and flipped over my bike. While flipping in the air I had the thought that I might break my back when it all ended. I got extremely lucky but guess what, it was my fault for fucking up and trying to link a double/table together when I haven't been riding much in months. Definitely not the tracks fault.

O and for you neck brace haters, I was able to tuck in the air and finish rotating my body so I didn't land with my arms out and break them, with a neck brace on. haha Grinning
Man that was a gnarly get off. Glad you survived that. Do you think it made any difference what size bike you were on?

For sure that wasn't the tracks fault but if the track didn't have those sections linked together you wouldn't have tried it either.
Similar to your return ride snafu did you see Andy Bowyer's video of his first ride back? He tried a combination that didn't work out for him either. From what I remember only because he'd been a training animal didn't get injured.

Face it we're motocrossers and we ride with our hearts way more than with our brains. Having sections like that out there to tantalize us is just too tempting for a lot of people and not everyone is as lucky as what you and Andy were.

GuyB-Great points about the bikes. If you raced in the 70s you knew a welder and regular visits if not weekly were the norm. The guy we used was a retired welder named Mr Hill and he was constantly burning himself and cussing a blue streak.

peelout-No statistical data to prove the local tracks need to be toned down but based on all available information it isn't the weather that has more people getting injured.

4/16/2015 5:06pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2015 5:07pm
seth505 wrote:
Exactly. I cased a 100 ft uphill triple last weekend and flipped over my bike. While flipping in the air I had the thought that I...
Exactly.

I cased a 100 ft uphill triple last weekend and flipped over my bike. While flipping in the air I had the thought that I might break my back when it all ended. I got extremely lucky but guess what, it was my fault for fucking up and trying to link a double/table together when I haven't been riding much in months. Definitely not the tracks fault.

O and for you neck brace haters, I was able to tuck in the air and finish rotating my body so I didn't land with my arms out and break them, with a neck brace on. haha Grinning
The Rock wrote:
Man that was a gnarly get off. Glad you survived that. [b] Do you think it made any difference what size bike you were on?[/b] For...
Man that was a gnarly get off. Glad you survived that. Do you think it made any difference what size bike you were on?

For sure that wasn't the tracks fault but if the track didn't have those sections linked together you wouldn't have tried it either.
Similar to your return ride snafu did you see Andy Bowyer's video of his first ride back? He tried a combination that didn't work out for him either. From what I remember only because he'd been a training animal didn't get injured.

Face it we're motocrossers and we ride with our hearts way more than with our brains. Having sections like that out there to tantalize us is just too tempting for a lot of people and not everyone is as lucky as what you and Andy were.

GuyB-Great points about the bikes. If you raced in the 70s you knew a welder and regular visits if not weekly were the norm. The guy we used was a retired welder named Mr Hill and he was constantly burning himself and cussing a blue streak.

peelout-No statistical data to prove the local tracks need to be toned down but based on all available information it isn't the weather that has more people getting injured.

holy shit, did you grab 4th or was that 3ed? I did the same thing at elsinore a few years ago frame casing their up hill triple busting both ankles and stayed on the bike head near the front axle riding it into the ground.

edit: quoted the wrong posts some how.
jeffro503
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4/16/2015 5:23pm
peelout wrote:
you must have unlocked the hips in the air bro, impressive feat considering you were wearing a bear-trap around your neck

Wink
seth505 wrote:
Go ahead and laugh at my pain, for the bros!

https://youtu.be/ceZ0QoayI-w
Damn brother! I'm glad you're ok! I hate those types of wrecks. After the initial impact , it shoots you up high enough that you actually have time to think about the amount of pain you could be in , in about 1.5secs.
bd
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4/16/2015 6:04pm
Smart.... focus on a title he can win and defends
seth505
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4/16/2015 6:46pm
seth505 wrote:
Exactly. I cased a 100 ft uphill triple last weekend and flipped over my bike. While flipping in the air I had the thought that I...
Exactly.

I cased a 100 ft uphill triple last weekend and flipped over my bike. While flipping in the air I had the thought that I might break my back when it all ended. I got extremely lucky but guess what, it was my fault for fucking up and trying to link a double/table together when I haven't been riding much in months. Definitely not the tracks fault.

O and for you neck brace haters, I was able to tuck in the air and finish rotating my body so I didn't land with my arms out and break them, with a neck brace on. haha Grinning
The Rock wrote:
Man that was a gnarly get off. Glad you survived that. [b] Do you think it made any difference what size bike you were on?[/b] For...
Man that was a gnarly get off. Glad you survived that. Do you think it made any difference what size bike you were on?

For sure that wasn't the tracks fault but if the track didn't have those sections linked together you wouldn't have tried it either.
Similar to your return ride snafu did you see Andy Bowyer's video of his first ride back? He tried a combination that didn't work out for him either. From what I remember only because he'd been a training animal didn't get injured.

Face it we're motocrossers and we ride with our hearts way more than with our brains. Having sections like that out there to tantalize us is just too tempting for a lot of people and not everyone is as lucky as what you and Andy were.

GuyB-Great points about the bikes. If you raced in the 70s you knew a welder and regular visits if not weekly were the norm. The guy we used was a retired welder named Mr Hill and he was constantly burning himself and cussing a blue streak.

peelout-No statistical data to prove the local tracks need to be toned down but based on all available information it isn't the weather that has more people getting injured.

holy shit, did you grab 4th or was that 3ed? I did the same thing at elsinore a few years ago frame casing their up hill...
holy shit, did you grab 4th or was that 3ed? I did the same thing at elsinore a few years ago frame casing their up hill triple busting both ankles and stayed on the bike head near the front axle riding it into the ground.

edit: quoted the wrong posts some how.
Thanks Jeffro!

B_T ya I was in 4th. It's hard to tell cuz of the slo-mo but I let off halfway on the straight and then tapered off the throttle a bit up the lip. Gnarly about Elsinore, I remember the first time I hit that one I was so close to clipping it! I have a buddy who shattered an ankle not even crashing a few years back too...ugh.

The Rock, ya I would say my bike made a difference in my decision. If I was on my 125 I would not have tried it on that day, that's for sure.
steve_97060
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4/16/2015 6:46pm
peelout wrote:
public parks should be toned down while we're at it [img]https://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/daily-morning-awesomeness-35-photos-352.gif[/img]
public parks should be toned down while we're at it

he would have died if he wasn't wearing a neck brace..

oh wait,

he wouldn't have been injured if he wore a chest protector..

oh wait,

they should require helmets when going down the big slides..
jmx411
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4/16/2015 7:01pm
If motocross is so much more popular than supercross then why isn't 50,000-60,000 at motocross races?
The Rock
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4/16/2015 7:19pm
jmx411 wrote:
If motocross is so much more popular than supercross then why isn't 50,000-60,000 at motocross races?
Don't believe anyone said one was more popular than the other.

To your question the answer is tracks typically aren't near cities nor do their restroom facilities compare to stadiums.

The difference between the fans is huge too.
Mr Bean
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4/16/2015 7:47pm
jmx411 wrote:
If motocross is so much more popular than supercross then why isn't 50,000-60,000 at motocross races?
SX has -

Air conditioning (at most, but cooler time of the year, regardless).

Fixed seats.

Indoor bathrooms.

3 hour show.

plus other characteristics that make it appealing to the non-moto crowd.

Non-moto folk + moto folk > moto folk
The Rock
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4/16/2015 10:15pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2015 10:18pm
seth505 wrote:
Thanks Jeffro! B_T ya I was in 4th. It's hard to tell cuz of the slo-mo but I let off halfway on the straight and then...
Thanks Jeffro!

B_T ya I was in 4th. It's hard to tell cuz of the slo-mo but I let off halfway on the straight and then tapered off the throttle a bit up the lip. Gnarly about Elsinore, I remember the first time I hit that one I was so close to clipping it! I have a buddy who shattered an ankle not even crashing a few years back too...ugh.

The Rock, ya I would say my bike made a difference in my decision. If I was on my 125 I would not have tried it on that day, that's for sure.
Were you on a 250 350 or 450? Did it matter in your crash which of these bikes you were on?

EDIT so far you have given better examples than I could that injuries are often a combination of poor judgment regarding a specific jump or jump sequence.
seth505
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4/16/2015 11:14pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2015 11:17pm
seth505 wrote:
Thanks Jeffro! B_T ya I was in 4th. It's hard to tell cuz of the slo-mo but I let off halfway on the straight and then...
Thanks Jeffro!

B_T ya I was in 4th. It's hard to tell cuz of the slo-mo but I let off halfway on the straight and then tapered off the throttle a bit up the lip. Gnarly about Elsinore, I remember the first time I hit that one I was so close to clipping it! I have a buddy who shattered an ankle not even crashing a few years back too...ugh.

The Rock, ya I would say my bike made a difference in my decision. If I was on my 125 I would not have tried it on that day, that's for sure.
The Rock wrote:
Were you on a 250 350 or 450? Did it matter in your crash which of these bikes you were on? EDIT so far you have...
Were you on a 250 350 or 450? Did it matter in your crash which of these bikes you were on?

EDIT so far you have given better examples than I could that injuries are often a combination of poor judgment regarding a specific jump or jump sequence.
250 2stroke. They aren't as easy to ride but I haven't really seen many instances where they can't do the gaps 450s huck.
The Rock
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4/17/2015 12:48am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2015 12:48am
Thanks for the reply seth505 and for demonstrating you don't have to be on a 450 to have a serious get off.
jmx411
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4/17/2015 6:27am
jmx411 wrote:
If motocross is so much more popular than supercross then why isn't 50,000-60,000 at motocross races?
The Rock wrote:
Don't believe anyone said one was more popular than the other. To your question the answer is tracks typically aren't near cities nor do their restroom...
Don't believe anyone said one was more popular than the other.

To your question the answer is tracks typically aren't near cities nor do their restroom facilities compare to stadiums.

The difference between the fans is huge too.
I know why I was just stating that if you went by vital then you would think supercross shouldn't even be related to motocross. I like both for what they are. Supercross makes the guys seem like rock stars. Then when you go to motocross is has that intimate feeling. Like watching MLB guys at a small minor league or high school park.

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